Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[jjleroche]

From the Bonita papers (ACandyRose site) :
"After the physical evidence had been collected at the autopsy and from the search of the residence, the next step was testing by the Colorado Bureau of Investigations. Blood had been found on the long-sleeved white top and the "Wednesday" underwear worn by JonBenet, the blanket and nightgown found in the wine cellar, and the duct tape found in the cellar which John reported to have removed from JonBenet's mouth. CBI Agent Kathren Dressel, a DNA and serological testing expert with 25 years of experience, performed the DNA testing on these items and positively matched the blood to JonBenet."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding - correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand this to mean that Jonbenet's blood was confirmed to be present, but there is no mention of any identification of presence of John Ramsey's blood. JMO

 

[Ponytale]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding - correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand this to mean that Jonbenet's blood was confirmed to be present, but there is no mention of any identification of presence of John Ramsey's blood. JMO

Not that I know of. Why should there be John Ramsey's blood on them?

 

[CloudedTruth]

The bloody nightgown has been known for a long time and it has been proven that the blood on both of them belongs to JB. I wonder, if they ever spent more time figuring out how, when and where did the blood come from? As it was a crime scene with a young dead child and a ransom letter, I'd like to suppose that they must have seen the bloody nightgown and blanket as possible evidence linked to the crime. They have collected them both for testing, but did they determine by looking at the spots how they could have gotten there? If they were splatters - did they splatter to the gown when the gown was on her or somewhere else (I assume that would be possible to tell by the position). Or if they were drops - where could have they dropped from? I know they asked Patsy about if JB had nosebleeds - did the spots some how show that they could have dropped from nose? I have not seen reports on that subject.
And if they were actual blood or some kind of mix, like the "brown colored" mucous/blood that was found on her sheet and shirt sleeve also.

If I think logically - blanket and nightgown both point to a bedtime and thus were possibly in her bed (if not washed). If JB wore the nightgown and was in bed with it and her blanket, something must have happened while she was asleep or in her bed that resulted with blood spots on both. It could be from a nosebleed, but I do not see a bleeding nose on a sleeping child leaving spots on her night gown, as the spots were all over the front of the nightgown not located in the same are. And I'd think that then there would be blood on the pillowcase and/or sheets too. So that rather seems that the nightgown and the blanket were not in her bed when the bleeding happened...
It seems like something else.... And for the same reason (bloodspots not located to a certain area) I don't think that the blood there was from SA also.

From all the places where there was JBs blood found (tape, cord, underwear, thigh, shirt, blanket, nightgown and body bag ) - all could be explainable, except the blanket and nightgown that remain a mystery...

There was also some blood found on her pillow / pillowcase.

The blood found on the items mentioned were described as "droplets". The most likely origin being the nose or the mouth. A likely event that may have caused that bleeding is the head blow.

The blood spots found in her underwear and the remnants on her thighs I think were caused by the penetration with the paint brush.

 

[Ponytale]

There was also some blood found on her pillow / pillowcase.

The blood found on the items mentioned were described as "droplets". The most likely origin being the nose or the mouth. A likely event that may have caused that bleeding is the head blow.

The blood spots found in her underwear and the remnants on her thighs I think were caused by the penetration with the paint brush.

Yes, I have read these ideas and they are possible. I was just wondering if there was any scientific evidence on the testing or conclusions of it available for us to read.

 

[AddieBoo]

I honestly don’t know.

Literally one can take any opinion and back it up on some level - exception of IDI…IMO

Patsy was in cancer remission. A death sentence cancer back then. I suspect she was taking medications, that may or may not been prescribed to manage ongoing symptoms or anxiety’s. If that is accurate, were they impactful on their family? On her marriage? I do think her cancer had a long term negative effect on her family that perhaps IMO has not been given enough perspective - largely because it’s probably gonna be a lot of speculation….
I do think that whatever stresses the family came under as a result of that illness were not alleviated by her remission. Then consider John as a husband, as a father..,,

There is speculation about those three phone calls on December 17th to their pediatrician. Maybe the GJ knows why those calls were made… after JBR won a pageant in Denver that both parents attended.

My impression is that she took care of her kids the best she could. She did not seem to neglect their physical health. Was that a nurturing response? Was she a good mother?
Good question.
I just don’t have enough information to make an educated guess.
Parents can be really bad housekeepers, alcoholics, SA, violent.,.
Sketchy awful people. Kids get damaged, traumatized, suffer PTSD, SA, etc but reach adulthood, survive, get help and become educated on how not to be consumed by their parents crimes, live a good life, despite all the horrible circumstances of their childhoods.
But JonBenet didn’t survive.

The ligature, garrote, paintbox, wine cellar .,, all had fibers identified to Patsys Christmas red jacket. That, really bothers me…

Also..
The Neck.
There is one maybe two paintings I think were done by Patsy, of JonBenet sitting with her brother Burke. There is an emphasis on Burke, wrapping his arm around the neck of his sister.
There are two photographs that show Burke and that same emphasis. Control of his sisters neck.

The red turtleneck…a shirt that emphasizes the neck.

If an adult S game were perpetrated on anyone’s neck, some sort of shirt might be worn under the cord, to protect the neck from visible signs of the game…. Turtleneck? The red Christmas turtleneck that Patsy and JB argued over. JB refused to wear it Christmas night. It was found squashed up in the sink the next morning and taken into evidence,

The red turtleneck.,,In anticipation or protection or simply festive?

One side of the wrist ligature was tied above the cuff of JB shirt. Not over the skin on her wrist.

The red triangular mark on her neck. Attributed to a twisting of the collar into her neck. The marks of the perpetrator’s knuckles leaving indentations… were those ever measured and tested? Was the collar from the white shirt she was wearing? Was there evidence of that on that shirt?
Was that mark made when she was wearing the red turtleneck Patsy said she put on JB to sleep in that Christmas night, after FW party?

Maybe that was the initial assault…that twisting of a collar into her neck, so tight it left a sizable bruise. But.., that particular mark has also been attributed to the result of blood flow during strangulation, on that part of the neck.., a physical response. Not an assault.

Would an adult play a S game that produced visible signs that could clearly be evident? Unless it wasn’t a game. It was intent to kill.,,

 

[CloudedTruth]

Yes, I have read these ideas and they are possible. I was just wondering if there was any scientific evidence on the testing or conclusions of it available for us to read.

Yesterday we were discussing the nightgown and I said I would try to find the pictures that I had seen. In poking around I found this website. This gentleman has a YouTube channel called True Crime Rocket Science and is pretty well known. I do not always necessarily agree with his conclusions, but they are well thought out and researched unlike some of the other sites that capitalize on the rumors that get tossed around. His website is probably the most comprehensive and well organized gathering of important information on this case that I have seen. There are a lot of pictures, many of which I had never seen before. Those can be found (including of the pink nightie) by scrolling down the page past the multiple links. There are also links to the DNA reports, search warrants and transcripts of many of the interviews given.

https://shakedowntitle.com/cases/jonbenet/

 

[CloudedTruth]

Also..
The Neck.
There is one maybe two paintings I think were done by Patsy, of JonBenet sitting with her brother Burke. There is an emphasis on Burke, wrapping his arm around the neck of his sister.
There are two photographs that show Burke and that same emphasis. Control of his sisters neck.

The red turtleneck…a shirt that emphasizes the neck.

If an adult S game were perpetrated on anyone’s neck, some sort of shirt might be worn under the cord, to protect the neck from visible signs of the game…. Turtleneck? The red Christmas turtleneck that Patsy and JB argued over. JB refused to wear it Christmas night. It was found squashed up in the sink the next morning and taken into evidence,

The red turtleneck.,,In anticipation or protection or simply festive?

One side of the wrist ligature was tied above the cuff of JB shirt. Not over the skin on her wrist.

The red triangular mark on her neck. Attributed to a twisting of the collar into her neck. The marks of the perpetrator’s knuckles leaving indentations… were those ever measured and tested? Was the collar from the white shirt she was wearing? Was there evidence of that on that shirt?
Was that mark made when she was wearing the red turtleneck Patsy said she put on JB to sleep in that Christmas night, after FW party?

Maybe that was the initial assault…that twisting of a collar into her neck, so tight it left a sizable bruise. But.., that particular mark has also been attributed to the result of blood flow during strangulation, on that part of the neck.., a physical response. Not an assault.

Would an adult play a S game that produced visible signs that could clearly be evident? Unless it wasn’t a game. It was intent to kill.,,

I think this is what the Ramseys wanted to portray with the staging.....the idea of a sex game gone wrong, that points to the "pedophile intruder". I believe it was John Ramsey who insinuated the idea of AE.

IIRC it was Dr. Spitz who thought that some marks on her neck may have been caused by someone grabbing her collar and twisting it. But the marks and bruising were explained otherwise in the autopsy report.

 

[jjleroche]

Not that I know of. Why should there be John Ramsey's blood on them?

My sincere apologies Ponytale. I had misread JB as JR. (It would help if I put my glasses on! )

 

[Ponytale]

Yesterday we were discussing the nightgown and I said I would try to find the pictures that I had seen. In poking around I found this website. This gentleman has a YouTube channel called True Crime Rocket Science and is pretty well known. I do not always necessarily agree with his conclusions, but they are well thought out and researched unlike some of the other sites that capitalize on the rumors that get tossed around. His website is probably the most comprehensive and well organized gathering of important information on this case that I have seen. There are a lot of pictures, many of which I had never seen before. Those can be found (including of the pink nightie) by scrolling down the page past the multiple links. There are also links to the DNA reports, search warrants and transcripts of many of the interviews given.

https://shakedowntitle.com/cases/jonbenet/

Thank you! I see there is a photo of the nightgown there, but it seems to be the same photograph that I was referring to - the fabric with the blood droplets seems to be cut out on it - there are pale rectangular shapes located on the places of the blood spots only. That photo I know of. I was wondering about a photo with the blood stains still on them and seen. I guess the one where the blood droplets are seen has not been published.

 

[AddieBoo]

IMO, what happened that night started out with an emotional outburst of rage. That was the head blow, but it was not done with the intent to kill. It's what followed that turned a horrible accident into murder.

I respect Kolar and the work he did on this case. His book is presented in a less emotional way than some others, with an eye for examining the evidence and facts of the case from a less personal point of view. It is very well researched. That said, he did form an opinion that differed from the opinion of others which includes what we have been led to believe was the opinion of the majority of the grand jurors. And that is that the underage juvenile in this case was not involved.

I think the very fact that the indictments were linked to murder in the first degree is the clearest indication that the GJ found from the evidence they saw and the testimony they heard that they believed it was one of the parents, aided in the cover up and resulting actual ending of JonBenet's life by the other parent.

IMO, what happened that night started out with an emotional outburst of rage. That was the head blow, but it was not done with the intent to kill. It's what followed that turned a horrible accident into murder.

I respect Kolar and the work he did on this case. His book is presented in a less emotional way than some others, with an eye for examining the evidence and facts of the case from a less personal point of view. It is very well researched. That said, he did form an opinion that differed from the opinion of others which includes what we have been led to believe was the opinion of the majority of the grand jurors. And that is that the underage juvenile in this case was not involved.

I think the very fact that the indictments were linked to murder in the first degree is the clearest indication that the GJ found from the evidence they saw and the testimony they heard that they believed it was one of the parents, aided in the cover up and resulting actual ending of JonBenet's life by the other parent.

I think this is what the Ramseys wanted to portray with the staging.....the idea of a sex game gone wrong, that points to the "pedophile intruder". I believe it was John Ramsey who insinuated the idea of AE.

IIRC it was Dr. Spitz who thought that some marks on her neck may have been caused by someone grabbing her collar and twisting it. But the marks and bruising were explained otherwise in the autopsy report.

Wecht came to the same conclusion -the twisted collar theory.
Both Wecht and Spitz have certainly put in their professional hours..,

 

[Ponytale]

My sincere apologies Ponytale. I had misread JB as JR. (It would help if I put my glasses on! )

it's ok, happens to all of us.

 

[Chimera]

From the Bonita papers (ACandyRose site) :
"After the physical evidence had been collected at the autopsy and from the search of the residence, the next step was testing by the Colorado Bureau of Investigations. Blood had been found on the long-sleeved white top and the "Wednesday" underwear worn by JonBenet, the blanket and nightgown found in the wine cellar, and the duct tape found in the cellar which John reported to have removed from JonBenet's mouth. CBI Agent Kathren Dressel, a DNA and serological testing expert with 25 years of experience, performed the DNA testing on these items and positively matched the blood to JonBenet."

Can you link the, "A Candy Rose" site ?
There was something mentioned very early on that I wanted to check on about Patsy.
Tia.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[CloudedTruth]

Wecht came to the same conclusion -the twisted collar theory.
Both Wecht and Spitz have certainly put in their professional hours..,

Yes, they have.

But it should be noted that neither of them were officially part of the investigation. As such, neither had access to any of the autopsy materials and findings in full, only what was publicly avalailable at the time. Neither examined the body in person.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Thank you! I see there is a photo of the nightgown there, but it seems to be the same photograph that I was referring to - the fabric with the blood droplets seems to be cut out on it - there are pale rectangular shapes located on the places of the blood spots only. That photo I know of. I was wondering about a photo with the blood stains still on them and seen. I guess the one where the blood droplets are seen has not been published.

What I also see in that photo are stains that are in the chest region. They are kind of rust colored. It clearly looks like blood and not part of the original nightie material.

 

[AddieBoo]

The bloody nightgown has been known for a long time and it has been proven that the blood on both of them belongs to JB. I wonder, if they ever spent more time figuring out how, when and where did the blood come from? As it was a crime scene with a young dead child and a ransom letter, I'd like to suppose that they must have seen the bloody nightgown and blanket as possible evidence linked to the crime. They have collected them both for testing, but did they determine by looking at the spots how they could have gotten there? If they were splatters - did they splatter to the gown when the gown was on her or somewhere else (I assume that would be possible to tell by the position). Or if they were drops - where could have they dropped from? I know they asked Patsy about if JB had nosebleeds - did the spots some how show that they could have dropped from nose? I have not seen reports on that subject.
And if they were actual blood or some kind of mix, like the "brown colored" mucous/blood that was found on her sheet and shirt sleeve also.

If I think logically - blanket and nightgown both point to a bedtime and thus were possibly in her bed (if not washed). If JB wore the nightgown and was in bed with it and her blanket, something must have happened while she was asleep or in her bed that resulted with blood spots on both. It could be from a nosebleed, but I do not see a bleeding nose on a sleeping child leaving spots on her night gown, as the spots were all over the front of the nightgown not located in the same are. And I'd think that then there would be blood on the pillowcase and/or sheets too. So that rather seems that the nightgown and the blanket were not in her bed when the bleeding happened...
It seems like something else.... And for the same reason (bloodspots not located to a certain area) I don't think that the blood there was from SA also.

From all the places where there was JBs blood found (tape, cord, underwear, thigh, shirt, blanket, nightgown and body bag ) - all could be explainable, except the blanket and nightgown that remain a mystery...

If those two items were separated from the wine cellar and left in some other room, that room would be regarded in relation to the crime. Keeping all the items from the crime itself together, may have made it more difficult to figure out what happened.

 

[GRT]

I think the very fact that the indictments were linked to murder in the first degree is the clearest indication that the GJ found from the evidence they saw and the testimony they heard that they believed it was one of the parents, aided in the cover up and resulting actual ending of JonBenet's life by the other parent.

RSBM

Only they weren't linked to murder in the first degree. The following charge could be linked to the Ramseys allowing Fleet White to care in an "intimate way" for their little daughter.

The document shows the grand jury recommended at least two charges against each parent: child abuse resulting in death and accessory to a crime.

The child abuse is further described as such...

"On or between December 25, and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen," according to Count IV (a).

But it really has no bearing since DA found there wasn't enough evidence to take it to trial. GJ's act on a very low standard of proof, which is why they are often inaccurate.

 

[ShadyLady]

As I have stated here, I stopped following this case years ago out of frustration and anger. The wealth of this family allowed them to get away with brutally murdering a child, imo. It is infuriating.
For the past two days I have gone back and read the many informative threads on this case.
It was JR, I have always believed that and never have believed that PR would hurt her child. And yet now I see her much differently. Selfish, more concerned about appearances than the well being of her family, jmo.
Her home was a pigsty, I'm sorry but it was nasty. Her children weren't toilet trained nor were they being taught personal hygiene.
Poor JB was sexualized and expected to participate in those hideous child pageants.
Honesty, I don't even know what I am trying to say, I just hadn't realized quite how dysfunctional and abnormal life was was for those very young children.
Now I can't help but wonder if PR would have tolerated or looked the other way if JR was abusing her daughter in order to maintain her lifestyle.
I would love to hear your opinions about this.

I think PR might have done it out of jealousy. Did she suspect JR was getting a little too interested in JBR? Person who wrote letter was mad at JR. Why?

Housekeeper had a lot to say about the dynamics in that household. She thinks it was an accident, I think it was rage. In her book, she talks about PR taking JBR in a bathroom to supply discipline. With JBR screaming. Why would she lie about that?


I think there was regret after the act, and that is why JBR ended up with her favorite nightgown and blanket and heart on her hand. Remorse? Guilt? JR had to go along with the coverup...IMO

 

[CloudedTruth]

RSBM

Only they weren't linked to murder in the first degree. The following charge could be linked to the Ramseys allowing Fleet White to care in an "intimate way" for their little daughter.



The child abuse is further described as such...



But it really has no bearing since DA found there wasn't enough evidence to take it to trial. GJ's act on a very low standard of proof, which is why they are often inaccurate.

Here are the indictments in their entirety, one for each parent for a total of 4:

"On or between December 25, and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen," according to Count IV (a).

"On or about December 25, and December 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death," Count VII states.

Fleet White testified at the GJ which means he was not a suspect. There is no evidence linking him to the crime. None.

The juror who has broken silence and made some comments indicated that after looking at all the evidence and hearing all the testimony, there was a majority who believed that the parents were guilty. They were just not sure which parent did what that night, but that one assisted the other as stated above, and that one or both had knowledge of the danger and risks to JonBenet that were present.

The lowest standard of proof is reasonable suspicion. Grand Juries operate under the standard of proof of probable cause, which requires specific facts and evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime was committed. It is not as high a standard as what is required in a trial which of course is beyond a reasonable doubt, but it is not considered a "very low standard" of proof.

 

[Ponytale]

What I also see in that photo are stains that are in the chest region. They are kind of rust colored. It clearly looks like blood and not part of the original nightie material.

But that does not look like droplets, does it? To me it looks like the nightgown it is stained and dirty... Could it have been something else than blood? If the blood is described as droplets. I have always thought that the light colored rectangular pieces are the places of the blood stains, and that they were cut out...