Has anyone charged their theory or opinion about what happened/who is responsible? Because I have always believed it was JR. Always since I have been reading and posting on these threads, I am not sure any longer. All I am sure of is it was one of the R's.
Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey
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Cops aren't medical professionals. He wanted to call 911 to get trained medical help for her as soon as possible. FW ran upstairs as soon as he saw that JR had found her. He didn't wait around to see if she was dead or alive, but obviously what he did see told him she was not okay, so he did the right thing by yelling for 911 as soon as he could. He was aware that he, not being a trained medic, couldn't rely on his own evaluation as to her injuries, whether they were fatal or not. Just like most people would be aware of this, including P and JR, which is one of the reasons I feel sure the Rs would have called for help if they had found her seriously injured, clinging to life or possibly already dead. They wouldn't know for sure, just like FW knew he didn't know for sure, so their instinct would have been to get her help right away, just like FWs instinct was. He had to call 911 to get her medical help just in case she could be helped. Yes, cops were already there, but medical help was not. Call 911!
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I have waffled over the years between all the R’s as I learn things about the case. But I’ve pretty much settled on a theory and a who. But still at times have doubts that crop up.
I'm curious whether JR was acting like JR, just amplified.
Edit to add: Meaning, for example, if he regularly appeared cold or callous. That could be consistent with his general personality but not necessarily make him the perp. Or it could be a red flag for more than a personality problem.
On a different note, I find one detail interesting. Some complain he was looking through his mail while talking. I learned somewhere that men are more likely to make eye contact and stay still while lying, women are more likely to move around and do things like look through mail.
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I have been going back to read the older threads and I am amazed at how information much I have missed.
I am reading the transcript of an interview with PR and Lin Wood.
The person is asking PR if she no longer suspects some of the people she previously thought could be involved.
Nope, she still suspects them all! She then precedes to name every person they know in Colorado.
I knew that JR threw his friends under the bus, but I didn't know PR did as well.
Unbelievable.
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One interesting thing I found in regards to the bed wetting is that not only did it grow worse as JBR got older, including when she turned 6,
its occurrence may have coincided with PR’s cancer treatment, according to Wilcox who stated it started when JBR was 2.5-3, but that it also overlapped with time period in which Suzanne pointed out that JBR still drank from the bottle unlike her peers in nursery school at the time.
BR also wet the bed until he was 7, according to Wilcox, but even after he stopped JBR exhibited an increase in the number of incidents regarding enuresis. Based on her observations and recall that JBR wet the bed much less frequently between age 2.5 and Wilcox believes the increase in frequency was JBR’s way or strategy of getting attention from her parents, mainly PR, who would have to change the or clean the bed sheets and mattress cover.
This factors also seem to align and strengthen with Linda Hoffman’s claim in Thomas’ book that BR’s and JBR’s bathroom habits regressed over time with JBR not properly wiping after herself following a bowel movement as noted by PR during her interview with investigators in April 1997, thereby causing to stains and fecal matter being found in her cleaned undergarments and dirty gray pants respectively, and PR having BR and JBR wear pampers, who at 6 at the time, for a time before switching to a mattress cover. LH also attributes to the children’s emotional distress due to PR’s cancer treatment as playing a role and like Wilcox, also held the parents responsible for not helping their children with conquering wetting the bed, teaching them the importance of cleaning up after themselves and basic hygiene, like learning appropriately how to wipe.
Though it is normal or not necessarily a cause of alarm for parents with children younger than the age of 7 to still wet the bed, as expressed by the nonchalance of both PR and JR in one of their 1997 interviews interviews, I do think JBR wiping habits, or lack thereof, should have been caused for concern for her parents and medical providers as it risked fecal matter causing infections and inflammatory conditions such as vulvovaginitis, UTIs, bladder infection, pylonephrosis, sepsis and thereby further exacerbation of complications like urinary inconstinance. According to one documented medical record, diarrhea had already caused JBR to experience vaginitis with the pain, inflammation or irritation once before so why not address the problem now, help her feel both clean and comfortable while promoting her health, especially if it can be factor causing her worsening enuresis. It would also prevent JBR seeking help from others, including male adults like JW, to wipe after her. I can imagine that would still be uncomfortable prospect for parents to continue to allow undeterred and I read sometimes adults felt uncomfortable that they would refuse to help by ignoring JBR’s calls. This information and medical history also caused some followers of the case to attribute findings of chronic SA to fecal-induced inflammation and irritation of the vaginal tissue and mucosa instead. However, this is still much up to debate and though I will keep an open mind I still agree with the conclusions, and find the corresponding evidence highly credible, that JBR suffered a sexually assaulted that occurred acutely, or within 72 hours, of her murder and that the broken pain brush was weapon used in this brutal and disgusting crime.
my.clevelandclinic.org
stanfordhealthcare.org
JMO/JMT
its occurrence may have coincided with PR’s cancer treatment, according to Wilcox who stated it started when JBR was 2.5-3, but that it also overlapped with time period in which Suzanne pointed out that JBR still drank from the bottle unlike her peers in nursery school at the time.
BR also wet the bed until he was 7, according to Wilcox, but even after he stopped JBR exhibited an increase in the number of incidents regarding enuresis. Based on her observations and recall that JBR wet the bed much less frequently between age 2.5 and Wilcox believes the increase in frequency was JBR’s way or strategy of getting attention from her parents, mainly PR, who would have to change the or clean the bed sheets and mattress cover.
This factors also seem to align and strengthen with Linda Hoffman’s claim in Thomas’ book that BR’s and JBR’s bathroom habits regressed over time with JBR not properly wiping after herself following a bowel movement as noted by PR during her interview with investigators in April 1997, thereby causing to stains and fecal matter being found in her cleaned undergarments and dirty gray pants respectively, and PR having BR and JBR wear pampers, who at 6 at the time, for a time before switching to a mattress cover. LH also attributes to the children’s emotional distress due to PR’s cancer treatment as playing a role and like Wilcox, also held the parents responsible for not helping their children with conquering wetting the bed, teaching them the importance of cleaning up after themselves and basic hygiene, like learning appropriately how to wipe.
Though it is normal or not necessarily a cause of alarm for parents with children younger than the age of 7 to still wet the bed, as expressed by the nonchalance of both PR and JR in one of their 1997 interviews interviews, I do think JBR wiping habits, or lack thereof, should have been caused for concern for her parents and medical providers as it risked fecal matter causing infections and inflammatory conditions such as vulvovaginitis, UTIs, bladder infection, pylonephrosis, sepsis and thereby further exacerbation of complications like urinary inconstinance. According to one documented medical record, diarrhea had already caused JBR to experience vaginitis with the pain, inflammation or irritation once before so why not address the problem now, help her feel both clean and comfortable while promoting her health, especially if it can be factor causing her worsening enuresis. It would also prevent JBR seeking help from others, including male adults like JW, to wipe after her. I can imagine that would still be uncomfortable prospect for parents to continue to allow undeterred and I read sometimes adults felt uncomfortable that they would refuse to help by ignoring JBR’s calls. This information and medical history also caused some followers of the case to attribute findings of chronic SA to fecal-induced inflammation and irritation of the vaginal tissue and mucosa instead. However, this is still much up to debate and though I will keep an open mind I still agree with the conclusions, and find the corresponding evidence highly credible, that JBR suffered a sexually assaulted that occurred acutely, or within 72 hours, of her murder and that the broken pain brush was weapon used in this brutal and disgusting crime.
Vulvovaginitis Toddler: Symptoms, Causes & Treatment
Vulvovaginitis in toddlers is the swelling or inflammation of their vagina and vulva. Pediatric vulvovaginitis is a common problem that affects young girls.
my.clevelandclinic.org
Causes of Urinary Tract Infections
Urinary tract infections (UTIs) are caused by bacteria entering your urinary tract and multiplying.
stanfordhealthcare.org
JMO/JMT
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It is surely odd, but it makes me wonder. Was Patsy always like this, or did she change after cancer treatment? If always, it raises questions about her own childhood. If not, then we have to consider chemo brain, the fact of it being stage IV...are we taking all of it into account? I listened to BR's interview with Dr. Phil. All I felt was that he loved and likely, still missed his mother. So I don't think she was a bad woman or neglectful mother. I think that many facets of the Rs life we don't see because PR pulled herself together so well. One of my FB friends succumbed to ovarian cancer. I read her posts. People look far better than they feel. Are we missing something here?
I wouldn't have a clue whether PR was capable of sexually abusing her daughter or not but I can speak of my own experience as a social worker. There are plenty of caretakers out there, especially "tightly wound" ones, who use bizarre sexual "punishments" in regards to bedwetting, leaking urine, and not wiping well enough after defecation. One particularly traumatizing case for me was a very young brother and sister who had to be referred for surgical repairs due to repetitive insertions of foreign objects into their anuses and vagina. These were done to them in part because their own parents had been similarly sexually abused in childhood (do we know PR's specific details/brand of her own childhood sa?) and also because that location of damage is almost never caught by social service child protection body scans and children are too humiliated to speak of it and usually intentionally made too frightened of the consequences of telling. Try as I have for these decades since to forget, I cant help but remember this particular "surgical reconstruction" case whenever I read yet again about PR's frigging paintbrush handle.
jjleroche
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IIRC, he was asked about that, and stated that he was checking whether there was any mail from the kidnapper.
There have been numerous discussions regarding JR's demeanour. IMO JR's "CEO" persona would likely be on display when in the midst of a major crisis I don't find that unusual. I get the impression that he was quite adept at compartmentalising, and appearing calm and professional when the pressure was really on. IMO this was simply a coping mechanism, which may have evolved over many years of high-stakes decision-making - maybe similar to auto-pilot mode. For all we know, he may have felt that his world was collapsing, but, particularly in this instance, he needed to maintain an appearance of being in control - for his family's sake as much as his own. JMO.
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Ponytale
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Yes, they acted like parents who have already had the time to come over the initial shock and wrap their minds to the idea that their daughter is dead. And, IMO, they had the whole night to do so.
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GRT
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According to Schiller, it wasn't so much a matter of anyone throwing anyone else under the bus. LE told the different parties that their close friends were blaming them for JBR's death, and it destroyed the friendships.
But that's not uncommon for LE to do. And it's pretty believable.
There’s a whole range of emotions that someone who is guilty might go through.
That makes sense to me also. JonBenet’s red turtleneck (Christmas) shirt smushed up in the sink..,Escalation is happening numerous times in December for the Ramsey’s. But I was surprised the GJ linked the indictments to Murder First Degree. WTH? What did the GJ possibly hear to make that determination? Increases doubt IMO about BDI, and murder with intent to kill just obliterates any theory that I’ve been considering. Murder in the First Degree? Really?
Wonder what Kolar thought of the indictments…
His conclusions seem to be different than GJ and he heard everything they did.
Could the GJ determine a First Degree Charge on an underage juvenile that was exempt from prosecution (in the conventional sense?) That doesn’t add up to me.
There’s manslaughter and any number of murder degree charges,
Murder One is the most grave, most serious of them all.
I’m totally hung up on those GJ indictments….btw …
GRT
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Actually, the story is a bit different. From Shiller's book:
"As Ramsey cried out a second time, White followed him
into the room.
By now Ramsey had ripped the tape off his daughter’s
mouth and was untying the cord from around one of her
wrists. White knelt beside Ramsey and touched one of
JonBenét’s feet. The child was dead cold. A few moments
later Ramsey picked up his daughter. Rigor mortis had set in
and her body was rigid. Holding her by the waist like a plank
of wood, he raced down the short hallway and up the
basement stairs, yelling that JonBenét had been found.
White had preceded Ramsey, shouting for an ambulance. It
was l:05 P.M."
It's total oddness. And let's not forget that Fleet went back downstairs, picked up the dropped duct tape, put it on the blanket, and moved some of the pieces of broken glass. He ran around touching evidence--tainting it. Or, setting up an elaborate defense for later.
FDI
MOO
Ponytale
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The bloody nightgown has been known for a long time and it has been proven that the blood on both of them belongs to JB. I wonder, if they ever spent more time figuring out how, when and where did the blood come from? As it was a crime scene with a young dead child and a ransom letter, I'd like to suppose that they must have seen the bloody nightgown and blanket as possible evidence linked to the crime. They have collected them both for testing, but did they determine by looking at the spots how they could have gotten there? If they were splatters - did they splatter to the gown when the gown was on her or somewhere else (I assume that would be possible to tell by the position). Or if they were drops - where could have they dropped from? I know they asked Patsy about if JB had nosebleeds - did the spots some how show that they could have dropped from nose? I have not seen reports on that subject.
And if they were actual blood or some kind of mix, like the "brown colored" mucous/blood that was found on her sheet and shirt sleeve also.
If I think logically - blanket and nightgown both point to a bedtime and thus were possibly in her bed (if not washed). If JB wore the nightgown and was in bed with it and her blanket, something must have happened while she was asleep or in her bed that resulted with blood spots on both. It could be from a nosebleed, but I do not see a bleeding nose on a sleeping child leaving spots on her night gown, as the spots were all over the front of the nightgown not located in the same are. And I'd think that then there would be blood on the pillowcase and/or sheets too. So that rather seems that the nightgown and the blanket were not in her bed when the bleeding happened...
It seems like something else.... And for the same reason (bloodspots not located to a certain area) I don't think that the blood there was from SA also.
From all the places where there was JBs blood found (tape, cord, underwear, thigh, shirt, blanket, nightgown and body bag ) - all could be explainable, except the blanket and nightgown that remain a mystery...
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As I have stated here, I stopped following this case years ago out of frustration and anger. The wealth of this family allowed them to get away with brutally murdering a child, imo. It is infuriating.
For the past two days I have gone back and read the many informative threads on this case.
It was JR, I have always believed that and never have believed that PR would hurt her child. And yet now I see her much differently. Selfish, more concerned about appearances than the well being of her family, jmo.
Her home was a pigsty, I'm sorry but it was nasty. Her children weren't toilet trained nor were they being taught personal hygiene.
Poor JB was sexualized and expected to participate in those hideous child pageants.
Honesty, I don't even know what I am trying to say, I just hadn't realized quite how dysfunctional and abnormal life was was for those very young children.
Now I can't help but wonder if PR would have tolerated or looked the other way if JR was abusing her daughter in order to maintain her lifestyle.
I would love to hear your opinions about this.
That's what I was getting at.
jjleroche
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Regarding your statement - "The bloody nightgown has been known for a long time and it has been proven that the blood on both of them belongs to JB" Could you please provide a source? I have read of speculation about this, but haven't seen anything which verifies this to date. Thank you Ponytale.
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I honestly don’t know.
Literally one can take any opinion and back it up on some level - exception of IDI…IMO
Patsy was in cancer remission. A death sentence cancer back then. I suspect she was taking medications, that may or may not been prescribed to manage ongoing symptoms or anxiety’s. If that is accurate, were they impactful on their family? On her marriage? I do think her cancer had a long term negative effect on her family that perhaps IMO has not been given enough perspective - largely because it’s probably gonna be a lot of speculation….
I do think that whatever stresses the family came under as a result of that illness were not alleviated by her remission. Then consider John as a husband, as a father..,,
There is speculation about those three phone calls on December 17th to their pediatrician. Maybe the GJ knows why those calls were made… after JBR won a pageant in Denver that both parents attended.
My impression is that she took care of her kids the best she could. She did not seem to neglect their physical health. Was that a nurturing response? Was she a good mother?
Good question.
I just don’t have enough information to make an educated guess.
Parents can be really bad housekeepers, alcoholics, SA, violent.,.
Sketchy awful people. Kids get damaged, traumatized, suffer PTSD, SA, etc but reach adulthood, survive, get help and become educated on how not to be consumed by their parents crimes, live a good life, despite all the horrible circumstances of their childhoods.
But JonBenet didn’t survive.
The ligature, garrote, paintbox, wine cellar .,, all had fibers identified to Patsys Christmas red jacket. That, really bothers me…
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IMO, what happened that night started out with an emotional outburst of rage. That was the head blow, but it was not done with the intent to kill. It's what followed that turned a horrible accident into murder.
I respect Kolar and the work he did on this case. His book is presented in a less emotional way than some others, with an eye for examining the evidence and facts of the case from a less personal point of view. It is very well researched. That said, he did form an opinion that differed from the opinion of others which includes what we have been led to believe was the opinion of the majority of the grand jurors. And that is that the underage juvenile in this case was not involved.
I think the very fact that the indictments were linked to murder in the first degree is the clearest indication that the GJ found from the evidence they saw and the testimony they heard that they believed it was one of the parents, aided in the cover up and resulting actual ending of JonBenet's life by the other parent.
Ponytale
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From the Bonita papers (ACandyRose site) :
"After the physical evidence had been collected at the autopsy and from the search of the residence, the next step was testing by the Colorado Bureau of Investigations. Blood had been found on the long-sleeved white top and the "Wednesday" underwear worn by JonBenet, the blanket and nightgown found in the wine cellar, and the duct tape found in the cellar which John reported to have removed from JonBenet's mouth. CBI Agent Kathren Dressel, a DNA and serological testing expert with 25 years of experience, performed the DNA testing on these items and positively matched the blood to JonBenet."
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