Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

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  • #781
Dr Wecht’s findings were originally the reason why I subscribed to JDI because they seemed to be the most sense, easy to understand or follow and aligned with Meyers’ autopsy findings. For example, like Meyers he too argued that the head wound and strangulation occurred closely in time together and further, that JBR was already dead or dying by the time she received the severe strike to her head, which was why only a teaspoon and a half of blood was found in her cranial vault since her heart had pretty much stopped bleeding. His theory I thought gave a good explanation for the way JBR wrist and neck were bound in that they were part of a sadistic or perverted sexual game her killer wanted to engage in and that her father was likely her assailant and killer as most child homicides are committed by a parent or step-parent in the home, the ransom note strangely referenced the father’s own previous bonus amount and JBR’s remains were found inside the home putting into question if an intruder was responsible why wouldn’t take her body with them and dispose of it elsewhere and what was even the point of the ransom note. Dr. Wecht’s theory also seemed to most easily fulfill Occam’s Razor by providing a motive ( the cover-up of subjecting JBR to sexual assault and predation), explain that perhaps the father did not intend to harm his daughter but lost control or passed the point of no return and chose to murder his kid to cover up his crimes of sexual assault and abuse against JBR, held JR solely responsible for JBR’s TBI and strangulation, and thus her murder, and suggested he probably later threatened or intimidated PR into going along with the coverup and staging of the crime scene. Additionally, I had my own bias for agreeing with Dr. Wecht’s JDI theory since I was introduced to his and Meyers’ findings first, already knew he was well-known brilliant forensic scientist and his work very reliable and didn’t really question it until I learned of some of the things Kolar brought up in his book.

For example, Kolar argued that in the GJ Dr. Lucy Rorke argued that JBR was likely strangled to death 45 minutes to two hours after her she suffered from her head wound. According to Kolar, Dr. Rorke stated evidence for this was the swelling and edema evidenced by JBR’s brain which would have taken time to develop while still alive. This contradicts Wecht’s findings from earlier in which the two assaults likely occurred closely together in time and that wound occurred right as JBR had died or was dying. The discrepancy in time also opens the door that PDI or BDI could also be plausible in that the same assailant would no longer have to be responsible for both assaults (unlike with Wecht’s findings earlier that shows feasibly one assailant was responsible for strangling and striking JBR practically at the same time). Since Rorke’s findings indicate JBR was struck first, it opens the door that the to detectives’ theories that she was strangled to cover up the physical assault. According to Kolar, Meyers may have missed the cerebral edema during his initial autopsy findings but conceded with Rorke’s findings and noted the cerebral edema as well and stated it would have taken some time before death for it to develop. Rorke also supposedly argued that had JBR had received treatment in a timely manner she may have been able to survive which led to my thoughts in my comments regarding BDI earlier. Of course, these claims come second-hand unfortunately from Kolar as Dr. Rorke never spoke about her findings publicly herself so how reliable or credible is up to the reader to decide for themselves. In addition, it appears Dr. Spitz also believes that the head wound was inflicted on JBR for some time before her death though it should be mentioned he was successfully sued for defamation by BR after he named him as promoted in a documentary that Burke struck JBR with a flashlight thus causing her head wound so take from that what you will.

Even though it seems like a small thing, I think just seeing how the time when the head wound was inflicted could rule in or out potential theories or how determinations of the reliability of DNA evidence according to Dr. Lee or Dr. Williams could seemingly cause a debate or divide among experts and investigators has led me to keep more of an open-mind in terms of IDI, RDI, PDI and JDI.
I think there are a couple of things that we need to keep in mind about the forensic evidence.

The entirety of the autopsy findings (report, notes, samples, pictures, subsequent testing, etc.) have never been publicly released. The autopsy report in and of itself is not the whole picture and was written in such a way as to not include commentary or opinion. Dr. Meyer after having completed the autopsy and released the body to the Ramseys, then sought out the expertise of multiple medical experts in various fields of the medical profession. Detailed reports from all of those involved to my knowledge have not been released. Kolar had access but has included only his interpretation in his book. The detailed reports are part of what has remained sealed in this case.

Dr. Wecht, while arguably a renowned forensic pathologist was not a part of the investigation. His opinion, which I am neither criticizing or validating was made without examining evidence other than what was publicly available at the time.

The majority of the experts who were consulted on this case, and some who have offered up their expert opinion concluded that the blow to the head came first, followed by the strangulation. From the table I have seen laid out, only 3 out of the 13 professionals who gave opinions on the order of head wound and strangulation were of the opinion that strangulation occurred first, and it should be noted that one of those was on the Ramsey payroll. This is the person most often quoted by JR to push the narrative of an intruder, while failing to mention that this opinion is not shared by the majority of the experts.

There were 20 experts who also examined the evidence for the vaginal trauma, the acute vaginal trauma that was present and occurred during the murder, and also for previous vaginal trauma. All 20 concluded acute vaginal trauma was evident that had occurred that night. 17 out of the 20 concluded that there was previous trauma. 2 refrained from a conclusion citing that more information was needed and 1 concluded that there was no clear indication.

These are the findings that we know of and what we have to base our opinions on. IMO the previous SA is significant as to what occurred that night and was a major factor in everything that happened. The Grand Jury as we have been told by a juror who broke his silence concluded that both parents were involved. They believed that Patsy wrote the note and they rejected the IDI theory.

Will we ever know without a doubt what happened? Sadly, we probably won't. I am of the opinion that Burke knows more than he has ever said, but we don't know how much. As only an almost 10 year old when it happened, we cannot say with any certainty if he was aware of some things how much of that he really understood. I also think that there are probably a few others that know what happened who have remained silent for various reasons. Other family members? Maybe, maybe not. I do not think that DNA is going to solve this case. Someone needs to speak out about what they know. One parent has already taken the secrets of that night to the grave. After all these years of promoting untruths I think we can probably predict the remaining parent will do the same.
 
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  • #782
I agree with the SA. Where it isn't clear obviously is who or was there more than one.
JR did not stand out to me until I start watching his interviews. He feels malignant but that may just be from years of being deceptive.
If the stories that were reported are true, it sounds as though JAR hated his little sister.
BR, if responsible, I feel most likely suffered abuse himself. I'm repeating myself here, but I had a son the same age. Boy Scouts and churches had no shortage of pedos hiding in plain sight at the time. I had an attorney friend who had many SA clients mostly from church.
As one Podcaster mentions, they even but a warning in the BS of America handbook regarding SA.
There was a transcript from Linda Arndt that was only 2-3 sentences that I believe she got from the school and stated that he had been abused. It didn't say what type of abuse. I have tried to find it again and never have.
If it is accurate, it means he probably was receiving help and there was a reason the school was made aware.
I wish I could find it.

I'm sure kids were brutal . Even if not, the questions probably never stopped.
I do have some doubts as to how well BR was able to read the room though.
Just days after JBR died, he recounted with such excitement and downright glee that the press were there to see him. Him! I have witnessed a lot of children lose loved ones, their response were more sadness and grief then " " hey, look what I can do!"
It bothers me that where ever BR was mentally at the time, it was very important for him to be front and center while his sister lay dead.

I do wonder how this makes BR feel now. The only glimpse we have into BR as an adult is the Dr Phil interview. Who ever made the decision for him to do that interview did him a great disservice. I wonder if the Netflix documentary is an attempt to fix that fiasco?
I am not in the BDI camp as I'm sure you know. However BR's reaction to the press I think is significant.

JB had been the center of attention since she started with the pageant stuff at the age of 4. We are aware of comments that Patsy looked at her children as projects, which I do think from what we know is a valid perception. When Patsy's attention shifted from Burke to JB, his bed wetting issues stopped and hers began. That said, I'm sure at some level there was some jealousy on Burke's part. We know that at one point he asked if he was fat and wondered why everyone fawned all over JB?

I wonder how his immature brain processed his parents' disdain for the press and some of the negative aspects of their intrusiveness and stories that were printed, vs him finally getting some of the attention that was usually reserved for JB. We have heard how vehemently John hated the press to the point of obsessing over their presence. And yet the Ramseys also used the press to push their narrative. The carefully curated press conferences and interviews, how much of which we don't know Burke had an awareness of, but he was definitely center stage when the Ramsey PR team orchestrated the photo op at the Boulder church for the memorial service with the congregants lined up for the Ramseys to walk through as if it were the Tour de France. I doubt he was aware of the backlash that caused with the congregants feeling used by the Ramseys.

It's really sad to think that he did seem to be happy for the attention as I think that really underscores the neglect that he apparently felt. And at times that superseded any feelings of sadness he had for his sister being gone. It points to it being a facade that the Ramseys worked so hard to portray of the loving family......their kids had lots of material possessions but they weren't getting what they really needed from their parents who were both too self absorbed to do the hard work of actual parenting.

John and Patsy saw themselves as the victims. Somehow it got lost that the victims were first and foremost, JonBenet. But also Burke.
 
  • #783
I think there are a couple of things that we need to keep in mind about the forensic evidence.

The entirety of the autopsy findings (report, notes, samples, pictures, subsequent testing, etc.) have never been publicly released. The autopsy report in and of itself is not the whole picture and was written in such a way as to not include commentary or opinion. Dr. Meyer after having completed the autopsy and released the body to the Ramseys, then sought out the expertise of multiple medical experts in various fields of the medical profession. Detailed reports from all of those involved to my knowledge have not been released. Kolar had access but has included only his interpretation in his book. The detailed reports are part of what has remained sealed in this case.

Dr. Wecht, while arguably a renowned forensic pathologist was not a part of the investigation. His opinion, which I am neither criticizing or validating was made without examining evidence other than what was publicly available at the time.

The majority of the experts who were consulted on this case, and some who have offered up their expert opinion concluded that the blow to the head came first, followed by the strangulation. From the table I have seen laid out, only 3 out of the 13 professionals who gave opinions on the order of head wound and strangulation were of the opinion that strangulation occurred first, and it should be noted that one of those was on the Ramsey payroll. This is the person most often quoted by the JR to push the narrative of an intruder, while failing to mention that this opinion is not shared by the majority of the experts.

There were 20 experts who also examined the evidence for the vaginal trauma, the acute vaginal trauma that was present and occurred during the murder, and also for previous vaginal trauma. All 20 concluded acute vaginal trauma was evident that had occurred that night. 17 out of the 20 concluded that there was previous trauma. 2 refrained from a conclusion citing that more information was needed and 1 concluded that there was no clear indication.

These are the findings that we know of and what we have to base our opinions on. IMO the previous SA is significant as to what occurred that night and was a major factor in everything that happened. The Grand Jury as we have been told by a juror who broke his silence concluded that both parents were involved. They believed that Patsy wrote the note and they rejected the IDI theory.

Will we ever know without a doubt what happened? Sadly, we probably won't. I am of the opinion that Burke knows more than he has ever said, but we don't know how much. As only an almost 10 year old when it happened, we cannot say with any certainty if he was aware of some things how much of that he really understood. I also think that there are probably a few others that know what happened who have remained silent for various reasons. Other family members? Maybe, maybe not. I do not think that DNA is going to solve this case. Someone needs to speak out about what they know. One parent has already taken the secrets of that night to the grave. After all these years of promoting untruths I think we can probably predict the remaining parent will do the same.
You answered my question as I was never sure if it was a complete autopsy report released. I thought I had read that there were details held back frim the public but the report released seemed as though it was the official one. I have always wondered if the vaginal swabs held any clues.
 
  • #784
Let's talk about Fleet.

He was with JR when he discovered JBR's body in the basement, but he told investigators he hadn't seen the body when he'd looked into the room earlier.

When he and JR discovered her body, Fleet ran upstairs yelling to "call 911." Why? The police were already there. Sounds like a planned reaction.

In the deposition of the Stine civil case, JR mentions that friends said Fleet starting acting very odd soon after the murder and then demanded the GJ release their full findings, which is super odd.

Fleet would likely have known the amount of JR's bonus and he knew his way around the house. His daughter had sleepovers with JBR, so there's a chance he was SA'ing her previously.

All MOO

But, what we now know is that not only was DNA from an unidentified male found on JBR's underwear, it was also found under her fingernails. That removes it from speculation of getting on the underwear during manufacturing or packaging.

When we find who that DNA belongs to -- we'll find the killer.

And that DNA didn't come from the Ramsey family.
 
  • #785
The killer was not an intruder. Don't believe the spin. I have no idea who killed JonBenet but there was no intruder and Patsy wrote the note in my opinion.
This case is literally why I got into true crime. December 1996.
I have watched some of the documentary and it's so slanted with the intruder spin it makes me angry.
Please look through our JBR forum and see the evidence presented so well here.
If you have proof of an intruder please present it. Until then we need to clear the people in the house and that has yet to happen. Feel free to ask any questions on this thread.
What is truly sad is people like me can show you the spin and the lies yet mainstream media ignores it all.
Thank you and I absolutely agree.
Anyone who watched the police video of that house from the night of the crime would immediately realize that only someone intimately familiar with that home could have navigated their way through that dark, twisting staircase and confusing layout, not to even mention the remote, dark unused room that little JB was found in.
 
  • #786
I think Patsy and John saw themselves as victims because they had every right to feel that they were. Imagine. Losing one daughter and then JB. It must have been brutal to John. If he didn't kill her, he was a victim. All the emotions he had to hold inside him, never show or say out loud. And Patsy had all the dreams (not justified, but still) with JB and the pageants - it all was taken in a moment. She just recovered from cancer. The time and money she invested in the pageants... She was a victim by losing her daughter, just as John. Those roles were somewhat genuine. If I watch some of their interviews or police interrogation tapes, they have to stick with their stories and lies, but sometimes for a brief moment I see the actual grief and emotion in them. I see the truth in them. Like when Patsy is shown the last photo of the kids on the christmas morning - she puts her hand on her mouth and just starts to cry. Every time I see that, I feel that. I believe that.

I'd imagine that their relationship too must have never been the same after that... The only one who possibly did not fathom the situation was Burke. Because of his young age and because he, IMO, might have actually felt like he said - he was just getting on with his life. Enjoying the attention, playing his Nintendo and seeing that his parents, especially Patsy, are there for him, not for JB. I suppose he must have understood the actual situation years later, after he started to see everything that was put on him by his parents decisions. It could have been that he was not in charge of anything in his life. Maybe still isn't. The narrative had already been written by his parents and the role given to him, he did not get a chance to choose it.

I sometimes wonder if they ever have any regrets. Would they do something differently now, seeing where they have come in those 28 years. If they ever dared to discuss anything about it amongst themselves (Patsy and John). Being afraid that their house was bugged or someone was following them to watch and photograph their behavior (police or press), they must have hid a lot of words and emotions over those 28 years. A lot doesn't even begin to describe it...
 
  • #787
I have lot of proof. But it's not my proof. It's proof from the professionals who have looked at this case. Yes it is my opinion but my opinion is based on proof. There are mountains of proof. I have to head out but over the weekend I will present some of the proof that points to no intruder. Until then feel free to ask questions and I will do my best to answer them.
No signs of a break in, no footprints in the freshly fallen snow, items from the home used , such as the pen and notepad that the War and Peace of ransom letters was written on, the person had to be very familiar with the home and where these items were kept. Was familiar and seemingly comfortable enough in the home and kitchen to prepare and feed pineapple to JB . He also was aware of the staircase that PR used every morning so was aware that if the ransom note was left there it would be the first thing Patsy would see.
Yeah, a stranger couldn't have made his way in that dark, rambling home nor would he know about the staircase and not only would he feel comfortable enough to compose a long ransom note and feed his victim pineapple then leave without his kidnapping victim and also without leaving his footprints in the snow.
It is impossible for an outsider to have committed this crime, IMHO.
 
  • #788
After careful review of evidence put forth it is my belief Jon Benrt Ramsey appearing in beauty pagnets was her demise. Someone began following her home he was a child stalker. Took his time figuring how to get into residence. Police was too busy looking at family to see the crime and ruined the evidence. Darkness does come to light.
 
  • #789
"I can say beyond any reasonable doubts that Patsy wrote the ransom note."

I'm not sure I believe that and the reason I don't believe she did write is because that note was written to frighten PR into not phoning the police, IMHO.
But PR did call the police immediately, even though the note stated that JB would be killed if she did. I believe the reason that the killer needed more time before the police were called was so that he could remove JB's body from the house. There was an empty suitcase in the basement that morning that the police found. It was under the broken basement window. I believe the killer planned on using that empty suitcase to remove her body from the house.
So why did she call anyway? I believe PR may have been frightened of someone that morning, someone wasn't acting normal and it scared her in addition to her fear for her child. JBR was Patty's little mini-me. I honestly do not believe she would have ever harmed her little girl. She adored her.

This is all only my speculation, of course. I have no way of knowing what occured that morning.
The neighbors and friends who came to the house that day also stated that someone wasn't acting right, was acting very suspicious, abnormal.
It has been years since I went down this long ,dark rabbit hole, but if I remember correctly the only handwriting expert was one hired by John Ramsey. Please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I remember no other handwriting expert examined that ransom note and identified the handwriting as being PR's.
Only the person bought and paid for by John Ramsey.
Color me skeptical.
 
  • #790
I think Patsy and John saw themselves as victims because they had every right to feel that they were. Imagine. Losing one daughter and then JB. It must have been brutal to John. If he didn't kill her, he was a victim. All the emotions he had to hold inside him, never show or say out loud. And Patsy had all the dreams (not justified, but still) with JB and the pageants - it all was taken in a moment. She just recovered from cancer. The time and money she invested in the pageants... She was a victim by losing her daughter, just as John. Those roles were somewhat genuine. If I watch some of their interviews or police interrogation tapes, they have to stick with their stories and lies, but sometimes for a brief moment I see the actual grief and emotion in them. I see the truth in them. Like when Patsy is shown the last photo of the kids on the christmas morning - she puts her hand on her mouth and just starts to cry. Every time I see that, I feel that. I believe that.

I'd imagine that their relationship too must have never been the same after that... The only one who possibly did not fathom the situation was Burke. Because of his young age and because he, IMO, might have actually felt like he said - he was just getting on with his life. Enjoying the attention, playing his Nintendo and seeing that his parents, especially Patsy, are there for him, not for JB. I suppose he must have understood the actual situation years later, after he started to see everything that was put on him by his parents decisions. It could have been that he was not in charge of anything in his life. Maybe still isn't. The narrative had already been written by his parents and the role given to him, he did not get a chance to choose it.

I sometimes wonder if they ever have any regrets. Would they do something differently now, seeing where they have come in those 28 years. If they ever dared to discuss anything about it amongst themselves (Patsy and John). Being afraid that their house was bugged or someone was following them to watch and photograph their behavior (police or press), they must have hid a lot of words and emotions over those 28 years. A lot doesn't even begin to describe it...
The morning of the crime John and Patsy allowed BR to go stay with a neighbor. If he had hurt his sister and the parents were covering for him, there is absolutely no way they would have allowed that child to be alone with the neighbors or anyone for that matter. They would no have idea what a young, possibly, frightened and traumatized little boy might say to them or let slip out. It would be too risky to allow that.
 
  • #791
I think Patsy and John saw themselves as victims because they had every right to feel that they were. Imagine. Losing one daughter and then JB. It must have been brutal to John. If he didn't kill her, he was a victim. All the emotions he had to hold inside him, never show or say out loud. And Patsy had all the dreams (not justified, but still) with JB and the pageants - it all was taken in a moment. She just recovered from cancer. The time and money she invested in the pageants... She was a victim by losing her daughter, just as John. Those roles were somewhat genuine. If I watch some of their interviews or police interrogation tapes, they have to stick with their stories and lies, but sometimes for a brief moment I see the actual grief and emotion in them. I see the truth in them. Like when Patsy is shown the last photo of the kids on the christmas morning - she puts her hand on her mouth and just starts to cry. Every time I see that, I feel that. I believe that.

I'd imagine that their relationship too must have never been the same after that... The only one who possibly did not fathom the situation was Burke. Because of his young age and because he, IMO, might have actually felt like he said - he was just getting on with his life. Enjoying the attention, playing his Nintendo and seeing that his parents, especially Patsy, are there for him, not for JB. I suppose he must have understood the actual situation years later, after he started to see everything that was put on him by his parents decisions. It could have been that he was not in charge of anything in his life. Maybe still isn't. The narrative had already been written by his parents and the role given to him, he did not get a chance to choose it.

I sometimes wonder if they ever have any regrets. Would they do something differently now, seeing where they have come in those 28 years. If they ever dared to discuss anything about it amongst themselves (Patsy and John). Being afraid that their house was bugged or someone was following them to watch and photograph their behavior (police or press), they must have hid a lot of words and emotions over those 28 years. A lot doesn't even begin to describe it...
We do know by the repeated accounts that the death of John's daughter Beth was hard on him, as one can imagine it would be. But it was a car accident. Emphasis on "accident". People go through pain and suffering every single day. It's life. Sometimes we get dealt a cruel hand. It doesn't make you the victim unless you make that decision for yourself to be the victim.

IMO the Ramseys took on the victim mindset. They made it about themselves and what they went through, instead of seeking true justice for JonBenet, who was the real victim. Some of the hallmarks of the victim mindset include:
Blaming others for your circumstances.
Refusing to take responsibility for your actions.
Feeling defensive.
Believing others cannot be trusted.

I have not read their book, "The Death of Innocence", but several people have commented that the Ramseys present themselves as victims in the book. Here is something that was posted on another forum:
"While the grand jury was going on, John writes about how he'd had conversations with Patsy about the possibility they'd be indicted and sent to jail. They were very concerned about what it'd look like if they were arrested and how it'd affect their family, and more than once he talks about how it'd be a horrible stain on their family name, even at one point saying they feared "passing on a blighted family reputation to our children and grandchildren". The reader commented on how concerned they seemed to be about themselves, very rarely even mentioning Burke, but more about not getting arrested (or caught) for the murder. People have also expressed the opinion that based upon the title of the book, they assumed it referred to JonBenet, the innocent who had died. But no, it's again about John and Patsy and what the experience did to them. Apparently they don't even address how it affected Burke.

And yes.......not only Burke's life was affected by their decisions, but also JonBenet's. They both are / were victims of those decisions. Refusing to take responsibility for your actions.
 
  • #792
We do know by the repeated accounts that the death of John's daughter Beth was hard on him, as one can imagine it would be. But it was a car accident. Emphasis on "accident". People go through pain and suffering every single day. It's life. Sometimes we get dealt a cruel hand. It doesn't make you the victim unless you make that decision for yourself to be the victim.

IMO the Ramseys took on the victim mindset. They made it about themselves and what they went through, instead of seeking true justice for JonBenet, who was the real victim. Some of the hallmarks of the victim mindset include:
Blaming others for your circumstances.
Refusing to take responsibility for your actions.
Feeling defensive.
Believing others cannot be trusted.

I have not read their book, "The Death of Innocence", but several people have commented that the Ramseys present themselves as victims in the book. Here is something that was posted on another forum:
"While the grand jury was going on, John writes about how he'd had conversations with Patsy about the possibility they'd be indicted and sent to jail. They were very concerned about what it'd look like if they were arrested and how it'd affect their family, and more than once he talks about how it'd be a horrible stain on their family name, even at one point saying they feared "passing on a blighted family reputation to our children and grandchildren". The reader commented on how concerned they seemed to be about themselves, very rarely even mentioning Burke, but more about not getting arrested (or caught) for the murder. People have also expressed the opinion that based upon the title of the book, they assumed it referred to JonBenet, the innocent who had died. But no, it's again about John and Patsy and what the experience did to them. Apparently they don't even address how it affected Burke.

And yes.......not only Burke's life was affected by their decisions, but also JonBenet's. They both are / were victims of those decisions. Refusing to take responsibility for your actions.
I honestly do not know how much I am allowed to say here, but I will say this: JR gives me the creeps. His daughter, the one who tragically lost her life in the auto accident, wanted nothing to do with him. They were estranged, to say the least.
JR was on the phone hiring THREE attorneys 20 minutes after ' finding ' the body of young daughter.
Why three? One to represent him, one to represent PR, and one to represent his ex-wife.
How odd is that? Why would he feel the need to hire an attorney for his ex-wife? Afraid of what she might reveal about her ex- husband? Again, I am only stating the things that have either been out of the norm in my opinion, or just downright bizarre.
I find that to be extremely odd, unusual, very strange and mere minutes after find the body of your young child.
But maybe that is just me. Maybe that is normal behavior for the wealthy. I just wouldn't know.
 
  • #793
Did we ever find out why Priscilla White's sister pretended to be BR's grandmother?
 
  • #794
Let's talk about Fleet.

He was with JR when he discovered JBR's body in the basement, but he told investigators he hadn't seen the body when he'd looked into the room earlier.

When he and JR discovered her body, Fleet ran upstairs yelling to "call 911." Why? The police were already there. Sounds like a planned reaction.

In the deposition of the Stine civil case, JR mentions that friends said Fleet starting acting very odd soon after the murder and then demanded the GJ release their full findings, which is super odd.

Fleet would likely have known the amount of JR's bonus and he knew his way around the house. His daughter had sleepovers with JBR, so there's a chance he was SA'ing her previously.

All MOO

But, what we now know is that not only was DNA from an unidentified male found on JBR's underwear, it was also found under her fingernails. That removes it from speculation of getting on the underwear during manufacturing or packaging.

When we find who that DNA belongs to -- we'll find the killer.

And that DNA didn't come from the Ramsey family.
Respectfully, IIRC the body of JBR was covered in the basement room when found. When exactly the body was covered IIRC has not been noted. So it would not have been unrealistic for FW to possibly have missed the location of JBR body in looking for her.

Also, the reaction if true of FW pleading for 911 seems IMO entirely appropriate. It is quite possible he was unaware of the condition of JBR. If anyone perhaps knew of her condition it might have been JR. And for all anyone knows, perhaps JR asked FW to head upstairs with the instruction to call 911. IDR whether or not medics or anyone capable of rendering immediate medical attention were present at that time.

One thing is certain in this case IMO. Four people entered the residence that evening and early morning. And by the next morning only three remained alive.

It is most unfortunate IMO that the DA office seems to have played such an ‘active and interested’ role in the evolution of this sad tragic case. And IMO the result has been an absence of justice in the death of a young defenseless child.,MOO
 
  • #795
Respectfully, IIRC the body of JBR was covered in the basement room when found. When exactly the body was covered IIRC has not been noted. So it would not have been unrealistic for FW to possibly have missed the location of JBR body in looking for her.

Also, the reaction if true of FW pleading for 911 seems IMO entirely appropriate. It is quite possible he was unaware of the condition of JBR. If anyone perhaps knew of her condition it might have been JR. And for all anyone knows, perhaps JR asked FW to head upstairs with the instruction to call 911. IDR whether or not medics or anyone capable of rendering immediate medical attention were present at that time.

One thing is certain in this case IMO. Four people entered the residence that evening and early morning. And by the next morning only three remained alive.

It is most unfortunate IMO that the DA office seems to have played such an ‘active and interested’ role in the evolution of this sad tragic case. And IMO the result has been an absence of justice in the death of a young defenseless child.,MOO
That was a very dark room that she was found in. FW stated that JR screamed before he even flipped the light on. It would have been impossible to see her body in the dark.
If was as if JR already knew she was there before he even entered the room.
 
  • #796
No signs of a break in, no footprints in the freshly fallen snow, items from the home used , such as the pen and notepad that the War and Peace of ransom letters was written on, the person had to be very familiar with the home and where these items were kept. Was familiar and seemingly comfortable enough in the home and kitchen to prepare and feed pineapple to JB . He also was aware of the staircase that PR used every morning so was aware that if the ransom note was left there it would be the first thing Patsy would see.
Yeah, a stranger couldn't have made his way in that dark, rambling home nor would he know about the staircase and not only would he feel comfortable enough to compose a long ransom note and feed his victim pineapple then leave without his kidnapping victim and also without leaving his footprints in the snow.
It is impossible for an outsider to have committed this crime, IMHO.
Great post! Don't forget the painting basket holding all her paint brushes that was left in the basement.
 
  • #797
Let's talk about Fleet.

He was with JR when he discovered JBR's body in the basement, but he told investigators he hadn't seen the body when he'd looked into the room earlier.

When he and JR discovered her body, Fleet ran upstairs yelling to "call 911." Why? The police were already there. Sounds like a planned reaction.

In the deposition of the Stine civil case, JR mentions that friends said Fleet starting acting very odd soon after the murder and then demanded the GJ release their full findings, which is super odd.

Fleet would likely have known the amount of JR's bonus and he knew his way around the house. His daughter had sleepovers with JBR, so there's a chance he was SA'ing her previously.

All MOO

But, what we now know is that not only was DNA from an unidentified male found on JBR's underwear, it was also found under her fingernails. That removes it from speculation of getting on the underwear during manufacturing or packaging.

When we find who that DNA belongs to -- we'll find the killer.

And that DNA didn't come from the Ramsey family.
Him saying. " call 911" isn't alarming to me. He wasn't expecting to find a dead child in her own home. He probably thought the reason she was on the ground was an injury.
The way I use words and terms regarding emergencies is I say " call the police" for LE and I say "call 911" for medical response.
I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude but JR said incriminating things about many people. Fleet may have witnessed a number of things that made him angry. Tragedies bring out high emotions. He may have cared about JBR as she was a playmate of his daughter. He may have been upset by people's behavior that had nothing to do with guilt. I myself have gotten pissed at people getting far too drunk at memorials. He may have had concerns for his own child if he suspected impropriety in the Ramsey household.
I'm not hearing anything that says suspect.
This isn't the response of someone whom I though was trying to avoid an investigation.

 
  • #798
Great post! Don't forget the painting basket holding all her paint brushes that was left in the basement.
Oh! You're right! If I were the suspicious type I might almost believe that someone was attempting to stage the scene by implicating their drugged wife who was suffering from the effects of chemo and wasn't thinking clearly. ( Cog-fog or chemo brain, it's called) It would be so
easy to frighten and gaslight a person in that condition, wouldn't it? Especially if that person trusted you.
 
  • #799
Him saying. " call 911" isn't alarming to me. He wasn't expecting to find a dead child in her own home. He probably thought the reason she was on the ground was an injury.
The way I use words and terms regarding emergencies is I say " call the police" for LE and I say "call 911" for medical response.
I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude but JR said incriminating things about many people. Fleet may have witnessed a number of things that made him angry. Tragedies bring out high emotions. He may have cared about JBR as she was a playmate of his daughter. He may have been upset by people's behavior that had nothing to do with guilt. I myself have gotten pissed at people getting far too drunk at memorials. He may have had concerns for his own child if he suspected impropriety in the Ramsey household.
I'm not hearing anything that says suspect.
This isn't the response of someone whom I though was trying to avoid an investigation.

JR attempted to throw every friend he ever had under the bus, as well as his wife and young son, IMHO.
Fact: 9 times out 10 when a female child is SA and or murdered in the home it is the oldest male member of the family who is the perpetrator.
 
  • #800
I honestly do not know how much I am allowed to say here, but I will say this: JR gives me the creeps. His daughter, the one who tragically lost her life in the auto accident, wanted nothing to do with him. They were estranged, to say the least.
JR was on the phone hiring THREE attorneys 20 minutes after ' finding ' the body of young daughter.
Why three? One to represent him, one to represent PR, and one to represent his ex-wife.
How odd is that? Why would he feel the need to hire an attorney for his ex-wife? Afraid of what she might reveal about her ex- husband? Again, I am only stating the things that have either been out of the norm in my opinion, or just downright bizarre.
I find that to be extremely odd, unusual, very strange and mere minutes after find the body of your young child.
But maybe that is just me. Maybe that is normal behavior for the wealthy. I just wouldn't know.
He gives me the creeps too.

I have searched for more information about Beth Ramsey and her relationship with John. I have found nothing except a very few references that suggest (without sources or proof) she may have been a victim of SA, with the implication that it was John. So I am intrigued by your comment that they were estranged. May I ask where you came by that information?

The only other sort of "inside information" about her was a comment that I read from someone who said they were a former roommate in college, and it ws about her relationship with the boyfriend who was driving and died with her in the crash. A couple of her friends seemed to think he was an odd choice for her. They indicated that he was a partier who liked to drink. One of the friends had dated him before Beth did, and she said he was prone to drinking too much and when he did, he got abusive. As 2nd hand information, it probably would be framed as hearsay.
 
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