Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Bekind89]

We will sadly never know what JonBenet would have become. What she'd be like today had she lived.

There's a part of me that wonders how she would've dealt with Patsy's ambitions for her and if that was a path she really wanted to pursue. If that's what she really wanted for herself. There were signs already that she was starting to rebel against Patsy's obsessive behavior with wanting to be dressed alike, etc. What bothered me most about the pageants is how the little girls were encouraged to be like adult women with the suggestive clothing, the suggestive moves on the runway and all of that. And that it spilled over into life. Patsy had been an accomplished woman aside from the pageant life before she met John Ramsey. It feels like she allowed herself to settle in to a life where she was the trophy wife who valued outward appearance in an unhealthy way. That seemed to be what she was passing along to JonBenet. I'm remembering the accounts of JonBenet winking and being flirty with grown men when they'd be out to dinner, her being cold and wanting to put on her jacket and being told no by Patsy because she was still "on display". She was a child! Focusing on the physical outward appearance and being attractive to men is simply not appropriate to be teaching your 6 year old daughter. And others in their life saw it as unhealthy and inappropriate.

How is that not child abuse? I have watched those cringe inducing pageants and little children are made up to look like, I'm sorry, hooker's. In this dangerous world where children are such targets to predators, you want to sexualize your child?
Maybe Patsy was unhappy in her marriage, I don't know, but she did appear to feel like she owned JB and lived through her child instead of having a fulfilling life of her own.
Any child would eventually grow to resent being so controlled.
It could not have been healthy for either of them.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I remember a lot of people from the Ramseys' generation who favored that kind of decor. This seemed to fade especially in the 90s. I will say, though, as a kid I would have loved that house.

Yes, the decor was popular at that time. I was referring more to the architectural design. There were add-ons to the house that occurred over the years even before the Ramseys did their renovation that resulted in the maze effect that it had. It needed to have walls torn down, not added. Which ever owner finally did the latest renovation / remodel made it much more functional and attractive IMO.

But you're right, as a kid I'm sure it felt like living in a medieval castle with hidden rooms....fun for a kid.

 

[Ponytale]

We will sadly never know what JonBenet would have become. What she'd be like today had she lived.

There's a part of me that wonders how she would've dealt with Patsy's ambitions for her and if that was a path she really wanted to pursue. If that's what she really wanted for herself. There were signs already that she was starting to rebel against Patsy's obsessive behavior with wanting to be dressed alike, etc. What bothered me most about the pageants is how the little girls were encouraged to be like adult women with the suggestive clothing, the suggestive moves on the runway and all of that. And that it spilled over into life. Patsy had been an accomplished woman aside from the pageant life before she met John Ramsey. It feels like she allowed herself to settle in to a life where she was the trophy wife who valued outward appearance in an unhealthy way. That seemed to be what she was passing along to JonBenet. I'm remembering the accounts of JonBenet winking and being flirty with grown men when they'd be out to dinner, her being cold and wanting to put on her jacket and being told no by Patsy because she was still "on display". She was a child! Focusing on the physical outward appearance and being attractive to men is simply not appropriate to be teaching your 6 year old daughter. And others in their life saw it as unhealthy and inappropriate.

I agree. Even if it was like John said, that it was their special little thing and they both enjoyed doing the pageants, I seriously doubt that it would have continued so for long. She was just a little child after all. But again, Patsy died when JB would have been only 16...

 

[Bekind89]

We will sadly never know what JonBenet would have become. What she'd be like today had she lived.

There's a part of me that wonders how she would've dealt with Patsy's ambitions for her and if that was a path she really wanted to pursue. If that's what she really wanted for herself. There were signs already that she was starting to rebel against Patsy's obsessive behavior with wanting to be dressed alike, etc. What bothered me most about the pageants is how the little girls were encouraged to be like adult women with the suggestive clothing, the suggestive moves on the runway and all of that. And that it spilled over into life. Patsy had been an accomplished woman aside from the pageant life before she met John Ramsey. It feels like she allowed herself to settle in to a life where she was the trophy wife who valued outward appearance in an unhealthy way. That seemed to be what she was passing along to JonBenet. I'm remembering the accounts of JonBenet winking and being flirty with grown men when they'd be out to dinner, her being cold and wanting to put on her jacket and being told no by Patsy because she was still "on display". She was a child! Focusing on the physical outward appearance and being attractive to men is simply not appropriate to be teaching your 6 year old daughter. And others in their life saw it as unhealthy and inappropriate.

It was unhealthy and inappropriate and eventually JB would have had to rebel to gain normal independence.
I know from experience with a family member that this behavior from a parent causes deep, sometimes life long resentment and anger.
JR didn't appear to be very attentive to his wife, but that is only a superficial guess.
JR just always came off as very cold.

 

[scapa]

I have no strong opinions about what happened that night, or who might have done what and when, but after reading Perfect Town and recently the Steve Thomas book, the one inescapable fact that stands out for me is just how badly the case was investigated from the very first moment the police entered the house.

From the gross, inexplicable and still-shocking mismanagement of that crime scene, nearly every other mishap, powerplay, internecine feud, subterfuge, claim and counter-claim and conspiratorial cobweb follows.

So much that is now unclear might have been clearer(er) had that scene been properly secured, managed, and investigated.

Given that, we have what we have, and barring a confession that can be properly collaborated and "sold" to the wider public, I don't see how this case can ever be "solved."

And even if it could be, there would always be that element determined to refuse to believe in said solution, and hold on tight to a preferred theory of the case -- unsurprising in light of the key elements of privilege, power, corruption and other factors that tend to polarize communities.

As many have noted on these threads, if ever a high-profile case held object lessons for investigators and the court system, it's this one.

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Yes, I remember seeing the police video of the house and thinking to myself who would allow a such a beautiful home to be so cluttered and nasty?
That basement wasn't just cluttered and creepy, as you said it made no sense. It almost looked the home of a hoarder and these people had hired help!
The children's dirty clothes on the floor. I realize that Patsy was dealing with cancer and undergoing chemo. She was probably severely fatigued.
But that house was so unorganized, idk. It didn't look loved and cared for, if that makes sense.
Odd family vibes. Just odd.

It did look like a hoarder house. Totally.

I think it's an interesting dichotomy of Patsy's personality that she was so concerned with appearances, yet even with paid help could not keep a house. Granted it was big, but there were some common sense things that could've been implemented to help keep it organized. Like laundry hampers for the kids clothes instead of just leaving dirty clothes lying all over the place. It's just weird to me that they would not have laundry hampers!

Patsy finished her chemo treatments in 1994. Not saying there weren't any residual effects that she may have had, but she had time for all her other pursuits just not doing housework. The housekeepers who had worked for the Ramseys said there was too much work for one person and that Patsy never did any housework other than to strip JonBenet's bed when she had wet it. Even Nedra pointed out that no one could keep up when they had to spend so much of their time picking up after the two kids. Yet there was no effort made to teach the kids to pick up after themselves.

It makes total sense for it to be said that the house did not look loved and cared for......it was chaotic everywhere you looked. That's the atmosphere those kids were growing up in. No order, no discipline, just chaos.

 

[Bekind89]

I have no strong opinions about what happened that night, or who might have done what and when, but after reading Perfect Town and recently the Steve Thomas book, the one inescapable fact that stands out for me is just how badly the case was investigated from the very first moment the police entered the house.

From the gross, inexplicable and still-shocking mismanagement of that crime scene, nearly every other mishap, powerplay, internecine feud, subterfuge, claim and counter-claim and conspiratorial cobweb follows.

So much that is now unclear might have been clearer(er) had that scene been properly secured, managed, and investigated.

Given that, we have what we have, and barring a confession that can be properly collaborated and "sold" to the wider public, I don't see how this case can ever be "solved."

And even if it could be, there would always be that element determined to refuse to believe in said solution, and hold on tight to a preferred theory of the case -- unsurprising in light of the key elements of privilege, power, corruption and other factors that tend to polarize communities.

As many have noted on these threads, if ever a high-profile case held object lessons for investigators and the court system, it's this one.

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Well said. Money, privilege, and police incompetence are the reasons JB will never have justice.

 

[Ponytale]

It did look like a hoarder house. Totally.

I think it's an interesting dichotomy of Patsy's personality that she was so concerned with appearances, yet even with paid help could not keep a house. Granted it was big, but there were some common sense things that could've been implemented to help keep it organized. Like laundry hampers for the kids clothes instead of just leaving dirty clothes lying all over the place. It's just weird to me that they would not have laundry hampers!

Patsy finished her chemo treatments in 1994. Not saying there weren't any residual effects that she may have had, but she had time for all her other pursuits just not doing housework. The housekeepers who had worked for the Ramseys said there was too much work for one person and that Patsy never did any housework other than to strip JonBenet's bed when she had wet it. Even Nedra pointed out that no one could keep up when they had to spend so much of their time picking up after the two kids. Yet there was no effort made to teach the kids to pick up after themselves.

It makes total sense for it to be said that the house did not look loved and cared for......it was chaotic everywhere you looked. That's the atmosphere those kids were growing up in. No order, no discipline, just chaos.

I think the house maybe represented how they felt inside. They all smiled and posed, but inside they all must have been a mess. I bet when they had guests they (with help) cleaned it up. Just to show. And when they had their house tour and parties - I doubt many knew the reality of what the house looked like a day later, when there was no one to show it to. Their whole life was a big pageant, so to say, but when the curtains closed the masks came down.

 

[Bekind89]

It did look like a hoarder house. Totally.

I think it's an interesting dichotomy of Patsy's personality that she was so concerned with appearances, yet even with paid help could not keep a house. Granted it was big, but there were some common sense things that could've been implemented to help keep it organized. Like laundry hampers for the kids clothes instead of just leaving dirty clothes lying all over the place. It's just weird to me that they would not have laundry hampers!

Patsy finished her chemo treatments in 1994. Not saying there weren't any residual effects that she may have had, but she had time for all her other pursuits just not doing housework. The housekeepers who had worked for the Ramseys said there was too much work for one person and that Patsy never did any housework other than to strip JonBenet's bed when she had wet it. Even Nedra pointed out that no one could keep up when they had to spend so much of their time picking up after the two kids. Yet there was no effort made to teach the kids to pick up after themselves.

It makes total sense for it to be said that the house did not look loved and cared for......it was chaotic everywhere you looked. That's the atmosphere those kids were growing up in. No order, no discipline, just chaos.

It was actually depressing. I wonder if the children felt that way. But if you notice in that police video Patsy kept one or two rooms neat and tidy. Those were the rooms that Christmas guests would see.
Appearances, as you stated, no substance.
A thinly disguised appearance of normality, underneath, chaos.
They could not have been happy.

 

[Bekind89]

It was actually depressing. I wonder if the children felt that way. But if you notice in that police video Patsy kept one or two rooms neat and tidy. Those were the rooms that Christmas guests would see.
Appearances, as you stated, no substance.
A thinly disguised appearance of normality, underneath, chaos.
They could not have been happy.

I believe one of Patsy's housekeepers also said that no one in that family cared very much about personal hygiene. So the children were not being taught the importance of cleanliness.
A completely chaotic, disorganized and depressing mess. Poor JB.

 

[Bekind89]

I think the house maybe represented how they felt inside. They all smiled and posed, but inside they all must have been a mess. I bet when they had guests they (with help) cleaned it up. Just to show. And when they had their house tour and parties - I doubt many knew the reality of what the house looked like a day later, when there was no one to show it to. Their whole life was a big pageant, so to say, but when the curtains closed the masks came down.

You nailed it. They kept one or two rooms clean and tidy for guests to see. Expensive clothing on unwashed bodies, according to a former housekeeper.
Just sad.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

The question was did JR act like a normal, grieving parent that day.

I think that would be hard to say but based on my opinion from reading Detective Arndt’s notes, while she, the Ramseys and the other investigators were in the home waiting to receive contact from the kidnappers JR was cooperative in handing over his family’s phones, allowing her to attach a recorder to one of them, consenting to having a trap set up on his office ones, trying to arrange the collection and delivery of the requested $118,000 and being upfront in answering her inquiries about his background, his finances, his and JonBenet’s activities over the holiday weekend, the last time he seen his daughter, security in the household and giving investigators a sample of his handwriting to compare with the ransom letter. He seems to be acting in a way expectant of a parent who wants to help LE find and save their daughter being held for ransom. The affect he exhibits appears to be congruent or not outside the realm what one would expect of a waiting parent anxious over their child based on Arndt’s observations of his inability to talk or complete a sentence without breaking down, sobbing while informing Melinda that her sister has been abducted from home and the restlessness or agitation he seems to experience as he can’t focus on anything else.

I also think maybe parents who had to experience the heartbreak of grieving a child could relate to or understand JR’s response upon recovering JBR’s when he asked, according to Arndt, if his daughter was dead, despite noting she wasn’t breathing after removing the tape from her mouth, her body sadly already in rigor mortis, Arndt not finding a pulse and detecting a slight scent of decay. I think despite such factors right in front of them, any parent’s heart or brain would refuse to comprehend or accept it because it means acknowledging the loss of a child. He also at first struggled to stay away from the living room and help PR despite Arndt’s instructions and chose instead to mourn and collapse next to his daughter. Yes, because of the nature of this case and the suspicion on JR, people may understandably might think he is faking it or question the sincerity of his grief, but I also think in other circumstances, or maybe even this one, his behavior could be looked at as normal or acceptable or something others find empathetic as it exhibited by a parent who was just confronted by the reality of their beloved child‘s terrible and heartbreaking murder.

https://juror13lw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/linda-arndt-jan-8-1997-report.pdf

Arndt also notes that she was informed about JR’s plans to fly to Atlanta that afternoon or evening. According to a Barbara Walter’s interview, JR decided to fly home to Atlanta after he and PR were asked to clear their house in Boulder since it was the scene of the crime of JBR’s murder. This seems to align with Arndt’s recollection and he is informed by Mason that LE wants him to stay in the area for the next few days for further questioning. Of course, understandably the idea of JR would already want to leave the state despite discovering his youngest is deceased less than a hour earlier and leave JBR or her remains all alone while taking PR and BR with him comes off as callous and cold and perhaps even abnormal from a parent grieving their child. However, in addition to the possibility that JR was just heartless or wanted to get as far away as possible in the care he was responsible for her murder, I think other possible factors that could play a role in his decision-making are such things like the flight-or-fight respond driving him to want to flee physically the home, remains, people and town or place that would make him face the reality his 6 years old daughter JBR is dead, perhaps the further he gets the stronger the denial is in his head. Dissociation and/or becoming just numb could also play a role if he just becomes just too emotionally overwhelmed that his psychological walls or ability to cope break to the point that instead of being able to express the hurt or pain his brain just compartmentalizes everything, moves from one task to the other and moves and talks as though he doesn’t feel anything at all in the face of such trauma. I think of this too if considering in the case of JR not being responsible for his daughter’s murder JBR would still be the second child he would have to grieve and bury when surviving the loss of one is as a rule already asking parents for too much. Perhaps too he may also just really be holding it altogether until he is back in Atlanta, where he, PR and BR can be among the people they love and trust, feel most safe around, like JAR, MR, PR’s mother, their old friends and neighbors and things they consider most familiar, before he allows himself to completely break down?

Also, if considering he was flying his own plane and maybe he was not thinking that straight because of his grief and discovery of JBR, is it possible he thought he could have flown back and forth between Atlanta and Boulder often enough to keep himself and his family updated and engaged in LE investigations in his daughter’s murder case while also getting comfort from those he loves in Georgia? I am not a pilot or rich enough to fly with such resources so I am just thinking out loud with this one if aerodynamically possible.

Nonetheless, per LE request JR and PR did stay and cooperated with investigators as they provided samples of their handwriting, fingerprints and DNA, were interviewed by LE on the 27th and 28th before flying to Atlanta for JBR’s wake, funeral and memorial.

JonBenet Ramsey's half-brother recalls the day of the murder: 'This case can be solved'

Twenty-four years after the horrendous murder of JonBenét Ramsey, her family is still feeling the repercussions.

abcnews.go.com

It is true, according to Arndt and FW in Westword, that JR received legal advice and references for legal representation from his friend Mike Bynum on the evening of the 26th and that within the next two days JR hired lawyers for both himself and PR, and actually his ex-wife as well after LE questioned her later. However, considering that JR was already under the impression that LE suspected him and/or PR already suspected him of JBR’s murder, MB and that PR at the time was in a state of extreme emotional anguish it does seem logical that JR would hire legal counsel for him and his wife as soon as possible. Though the quickness for which legal representation may have been hired may be looked at by some as indicative of guilt or the Ramseys hiding something it could also be just to ensure that a team or professional is available to sufficiently advocate for their innocence, even when in opposition to suspicion from LE and MSM, and in the instance JR and PR are unable to speak or respond to questioning adequately themselves, like PR might not have been as her treatment put her in what some friends called a Vicodin-Induced State. Furthermore, the Ramseys picked legal counsel who were not only recognized for their expertise in criminal defense but could work with a specialized team of conflict managers, media consultants and investigators who could help them find and identify their daughter’s killer independent of LE, with whom after a year of cooperation with, the Ramseys developed a tenuous stone-walled relationship, as may have been predicted and prepared for by said team earlier on, particularly as the Ramseys grew frustrated with false or defamatory reporting from MSM targeted against them going uncorrected by LE, Thomas grew enraged with the DA with whom he felt did not give enough support, pressure on JR and PR to do a polygraph test and disagreement between the Ramseys and LE about the quality of the investigation and evidence.

Not necessarily saying LE’s and the Ramseys approach to each other was right, especially because IMO it often stalled the investigation into the case, but perhaps it provides insight into how some of the decisions or factors took place (and show how to wealth can further help the rich circumvent criminal justice and investigative resources and instructors the rest of us lean on legally)

JonBenét Ramsey: How the Investigation Got Derailed - and Why It Still Matters

What's changed since we published this story on Colorado's coldest case ten years ago? Not much.

www.westword.com

The Denver Post Online: Today's News

extras.denverpost.com

The Denver Post Online: Today's News

extras.denverpost.com

Ramseys hire only ‘the best’

When John and Patsy Ramsey appeared on national television New Year’s Day, John Ramsey announced he wanted to hire “the best minds this country has to offer” to find his daughter&…

www.dailycamera.com

Unpacking Why the JonBenét Ramsey Murder Case Has Never Been Solved

Netflix's Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenét Ramsey explored whether early suspicion directed at the 6-year-old's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, irreparably muddied the investigation.

www.eonline.com

JonBenet Ramsey: Missing Innocence

The Christmas-night murder of six-year-old beauty-pageant winner JonBenet Ramsey in Boulder, Colorado, shocked the country and turned her millionaire parents, John and Patsy, into suspects.

www.vanityfair.com

 

[Chypre]

You would yell that to a cop?

That's essentially what he did.

I have attended so many CPR trainings, I don't know. For me, call an ambulance would seem weird.

 

[Bekind89]

Unbelievable. So according to JR the murder of his daughter was all about HIM? Someone brutally murdered a little girl because they were sooooo jealous of JR?
Is this real?

 

[CloudedTruth]

It was unhealthy and inappropriate and eventually JB would have had to rebel to gain normal independence.
I know from experience with a family member that this behavior from a parent causes deep, sometimes life long resentment and anger.
JR didn't appear to be very attentive to his wife, but that is only a superficial guess.
JR just always came off as very cold.

Agree.

Yes, resentment and anger on the part of the child being forced by a parent onto a path not of their own making. And a parent who is overbearing and insisting their child follow a path they want them to likely would have felt anger and resentment too. It is not a healthy relationship for either one of them.

JR was old school conservative who had some rather rigid ideas about how things should be.......the wife's role was to keep the house, raise the kids and all that entails. He makes the money, controls the finances and gets to play with his adult toys. Some of the recollections we have heard from people who knew them describe him as cold and emotionally distant. He worked and travelled a lot leaving Patsy to take care of everything else. People saw them as not being very affectionate with each other. Some described it more like a business arrangement than a marriage. I can imagine that Patsy's illness had an impact on their relationship, but at one point John had to be reminded that he needed to be there to support her. He had to be told he should take some time off and be there for her. And what about their kids?? Being so young they needed to have at least one parent there and available ensuring them that it would be okay. Apparently, neither Patsy or John even explained to them about the illness. They were left in Nedra's care who also had to take care of Patsy.

I'll never forget the comment about Patsy's main job being to make sure that no one or anything bothered John. He needed to be above it all, untouched and not bothered by the inherent chaos in that house. They had a 6 year old and a 9 year old, but he only wanted to be involved in the fun stuff. I'm sure he saw it all as a reasonable arrangement, but it feels like Patsy at some point was probably overwhelmed and I think he was too emotionally distant from everything to pay any attention to that. IMO it was a slow, smoldering build up to what eventually happened.

 

[Bekind89]

We will sadly never know what JonBenet would have become. What she'd be like today had she lived.

There's a part of me that wonders how she would've dealt with Patsy's ambitions for her and if that was a path she really wanted to pursue. If that's what she really wanted for herself. There were signs already that she was starting to rebel against Patsy's obsessive behavior with wanting to be dressed alike, etc. What bothered me most about the pageants is how the little girls were encouraged to be like adult women with the suggestive clothing, the suggestive moves on the runway and all of that. And that it spilled over into life. Patsy had been an accomplished woman aside from the pageant life before she met John Ramsey. It feels like she allowed herself to settle in to a life where she was the trophy wife who valued outward appearance in an unhealthy way. That seemed to be what she was passing along to JonBenet. I'm remembering the accounts of JonBenet winking and being flirty with grown men when they'd be out to dinner, her being cold and wanting to put on her jacket and being told no by Patsy because she was still "on display". She was a child! Focusing on the physical outward appearance and being attractive to men is simply not appropriate to be teaching your 6 year old daughter. And others in their life saw it as unhealthy and inappropriate.

They appeared to be such shallow people, living a shallow existence.
They both seemed miserable.

 

[CloudedTruth]

I think the house maybe represented how they felt inside. They all smiled and posed, but inside they all must have been a mess. I bet when they had guests they (with help) cleaned it up. Just to show. And when they had their house tour and parties - I doubt many knew the reality of what the house looked like a day later, when there was no one to show it to. Their whole life was a big pageant, so to say, but when the curtains closed the masks came down.

Yep. Exactly. And when the house was show ready, it was hired help who did all the heavy lifting.

Someone commented somewhere (can't recall which forum) that the chaotic house was an outward clue to a chaotic mind. That really resonated with me and I think it's spot on. That was Patsy for sure. I think John was oddly detached from it all, he actually wasn't there a lot of the time. And that's the environment their children had to live in. In the years since the murder, we have learned just how dysfunctional they were.

 

[Bekind89]

We will sadly never know what JonBenet would have become. What she'd be like today had she lived.

There's a part of me that wonders how she would've dealt with Patsy's ambitions for her and if that was a path she really wanted to pursue. If that's what she really wanted for herself. There were signs already that she was starting to rebel against Patsy's obsessive behavior with wanting to be dressed alike, etc. What bothered me most about the pageants is how the little girls were encouraged to be like adult women with the suggestive clothing, the suggestive moves on the runway and all of that. And that it spilled over into life. Patsy had been an accomplished woman aside from the pageant life before she met John Ramsey. It feels like she allowed herself to settle in to a life where she was the trophy wife who valued outward appearance in an unhealthy way. That seemed to be what she was passing along to JonBenet. I'm remembering the accounts of JonBenet winking and being flirty with grown men when they'd be out to dinner, her being cold and wanting to put on her jacket and being told no by Patsy because she was still "on display". She was a child! Focusing on the physical outward appearance and being attractive to men is simply not appropriate to be teaching your 6 year old daughter. And others in their life saw it as unhealthy and inappropriate

They would have eventually had a vicious clash. A misogynistic cold father, a mother who sexualized and controlled her, teaching JB to use her looks to get attention from men. Good God!
I suppose Burke was the ignored, quietly angry child? I just can't.

 

[ShadyLady]

I wonder if the reason this case doesn't make sense is because PR might have been dealing with a possible drug addiction.

I cant get over that JBR was tortured. That takes some big anger issues....the pokes with train set track, the multiple strangulations...and why did JR lie about putting JBR to bed. Either he read to her or she was asleep....which was it?
Did someone see something they were not suppose to see??

 

[GRT]

Unbelievable. So according to JR the murder of his daughter was all about HIM? Someone brutally murdered a little girl because they were sooooo jealous of JR?
Is this real?

That wasn't "according to JR" that was according to the profiler who told him that.