France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[ScotsPaddy]

I very much think the shooter didnt know the 4yr old was in the car,i could see her being pushed down into the footwell for protection,or one of the females laying over her?.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Confirmed that automatic weapons used but no weapons found..

 

[ConfusedPopsicle]

This is so tragic, and so bizarre. I also don't think this was any kind of professional hit or anything like that. There wouldn't have been any reason to beat the girl, IMO. It's like she was used to get the family to comply, or they were taking too long to do whatever it is they were supposed to do and she was being too loud or crying. Something this time was different though, otherwise there'd be these kinds of things in that area quite often. Didn't I read somewhere that robberies of tourists are common there? What was different?...

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Man im so on the fence with what happened it hurts!.
Part of me says although not a professional hit it still may have been to order,the shots to the head make me think that this was an execution.
I also think that the violence was very extreme for a car jacking,anybody know the model of bmw?,i know its an old 5 series but i dont think it was special enough for this level of violence..
Also as above and as i said before i think the 8 yr old was used to make the family comply(although i didnt use comply cos well i didnt).

 

[graceholl]

Neighbours have named the victims

From Sky News:

"The British husband and wife killed were named by neighbours as Saad and Iqbal al Hilli.

Their two children, who survived the bloody attack, were named as eight-year-old Zehab and four-year-old Zaina."

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

The weapons used (15 rounds from an automatic pistol in one account), the location, the passports hint at a political assassination. The man's employment at an aerial photography biz could be strategically significant. Could be random racism/fascism or a robbery too, sometimes the thugs are the same.

I also wonder if some of the injuries were caused by vehicles rather than beatings. Maybe the older girl was run down as she tried to flee. Also the bicyclist.

Here's a French-language article with graphic of the vehicle interior: http://5minutes.rtl.lu/fr/actualite/international/308873.html

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

If they were close enough to target the 3 victims in the car directly in the forehead, they probably did notice her. The fact that her sister was beaten but not killed suggests their lives were both intentionally spared, to me.

In the graphic I posted, it looks like the four-year-old was hiding on the floorboard, under the mom's legs. I read the police didn't see her with infrared camera (from a helicopter?), and they didn't want to shatter the bullet-ridden windows by entering the vehicle.

 

[colette]

The 4 year old was under her mother's legs and hidden by her skirt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19509899


A new article saying a neighbor of the dead man had information that he was going to tell the police...

Speaking to Sam Walker on the Richard Bacon Show on Radio 5 Live, he said: "I know one little thing which I am not prepared to speak (about) at the moment. I will tell the police about it.

"It was something Saad said to me before he went but at this stage I do not feel I can disclose that but I will tell the police exactly what he told me before he left."


http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...KRxvUlrnqxtCCeg?docId=B24487411346940141A0000

Personally I think it was a random robbery gone wrong.

 

[sherlockh]

It could have been a hit, although I don't think the shots in the head necessarily point to that. If the adults were looking at the situation outside and shots were fired through the windows from outside then it is likely they would get hit in the head. Maybe the 2 kids both hided and that saved their lives.

The strange thing is that the oldest child was beaten. Maybe she stumbled out of the car when the shooting stopped and the gunmen knocked her down for some reason instead of shooting (out of bullets?). If she was out of the car before the shooting then I would expect the parents had opened a window or door.

The motor was still running. They were all in the car. A cyclist killed. The car robbery was only just starting and the attackers panicked, or this was something else.

 

[ConfusedPopsicle]

Part of me says although not a professional hit it still may have been to order,the shots to the head make me think that this was an execution.

I'm thinking possibly 3 assailants, with guns to their heads and something goes very wrong very fast. 3 head shots, the daughter tries to flee and is maybe hit over the head by one that doesn't want to kill a child and shot by another more ruthless "leave no witnesses" type. The cyclist comes along and is shot, grandma is shot (I'm guessing, hasn't her cause of death yet to be released/determined?). Of course this is all taking place in the span of a few seconds to minutes. Anyway, that's my very amateur theory at the moment.

 

[Saturn]

There are instances of thefts from families, especially those camping: a gas is sprayed through vents to knock out the victims, and then cash, jewellery, passports stolen. This is rife in Spain and could have crossed the border into S. France.

There have been a few well documented incidents of shootings in France, all done in the name of religion - could this be pay back?

Were they targeted as a non-white UK family with Iraqi/Swedish passports but with easy access to the UK? those passports would be priceless to terrorists. Were passports stolen? If so, they could be in the UK before French cops raised the alarm.

Car jacking is at the bottom of my list, it would be a Right Hand Drive, so hard to sell on in most of the world, especially if there was a look out for that vehicle; also if they really wanted the vehicle they would have turfed out the victims with a threat of a shooting and taken it.

Or there was some dodgy goings on, to US members, UK is the size of one of your counties, and France is a mere 21 mile ferry crossing, Annecy is probably about 500 miles south of the UK south coast ferry ports, it seems big mileage to us Brits

I feel so sorry (in fact sorry isn't a big enough word) for the French cyclist and his family, they are all being pushed to the sidelines in this tragedy, as 4 killed from a UK family has more news attention.

My bets are random payback for the attacks in France or after Iraqi passports with full UK access for terrorists.

Those poor girls, sincerely hope the eldest makes it through, and that the 4 year old gets to lead a normal life eventually.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Shot in the head could just be the fact that their heads caught 1 bullet from multiple shots,i mean the torsos may have umpteen bullets each but reporters are only picking up the shot in the head.
Last time i heard the prosecutor speak he said there was approximately 20 bullet casings around the vehicle.
I hope all that made sense.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Id also like to know more about the brake marks in the car park and if the car park was the end of the road.

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

I wonder if the assailant(s) used motorcycles. I don't think this was a robbery because it was over so fast; the BMW's engine was still running when the RAF vet discovered them and the deceased cyclist had previously passed him on the road. Was this a strike against the UK? Iranians have been doing a lot of extraterritorial assassinations lately.

 

[laurauk1]

At the moment I'm thinking it's a hit - possibly by someone who has it in for the man from his days in Iraq. There was someone who lived near my parents who had moved to the UK as a refugee from Iraq and someone tried to assassinate him. I can't remember the details but he had refused to do something with Sadaam's government and left the country for the UK. It was years later when someone tried to kill him. They were unsuccessful. I'm wondering if it could be similar.

I read somewhere today that BBC radio 4 interviewed a neighbour who said that the man had said something to him shortly before he went on holiday that may be relevant. He would not say more but said he would be contacting the polo e.

I also reckon that the older girl was scared and tried to flee. The gunman (or men) panicked and attacked her. I think both girls who spared on purpose.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Soo much that we don't know. I am also on the fence with this. Was the car parked at the part of the road that loops around to another road, or was it further down into the forest? What about the family that was camping with them? Did anyone see or hear anything? Were they even robbed? I read somewhere that the passports were in the car, so no one wanted the ID.

This tragically seems like a robbery gone bad but I can't say. Kind of scary and I don't know that I would feel so afraid to go off exploring like they were.

Could they have been lost and flagged down the cyclist for directions? What's the phone service like out there?

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Never mind, I see from the linked article it was further up the road. What a tragedy. This reminds me of the hits you hear about in Mexico. I wonder what the racial situation is like in that part of France. I know in some parts of Germany, it's gotten very white supremest.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Having a guess it looks as tho their car was an older BMW 5 series estate(from the shape under the tarp).although theyve just said again it was a BMW 4x4,X5 etc..

I dont know what the roads are like in that area but a car would be quicker and safer in the corners as a getaway vehicle,also im sure it was said they were shot from around the car,multiple gunmen?,and 15-20 shell casings,unless gunman reloaded id think would be more than one gunmen?.

Now saying on news shots from auto pistol and no shots to bodywork only windows but on rear tyre shredded,uknown if from gushot.

Car looked as though it had reversed into a passing place..

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Surely you wouldnt have to use a passing place,let alone have to reverse into one if the oncoming vehicle was a motorbike?..

 

[wfgodot]

The deadly side of la France profonde (Telegraph)

Interesting snip, though not relevant to the current case:

And the Chevaline shootings recall a notorious triple murder that took place 175 miles away almost exactly 60 years ago. Sir Jack Drummond, an acclaimed British biochemist, had pulled over in his green Hillman on an August evening near the village of Lurs in what is now the Alpes-de-Haute-Provence region. Next morning, Sir Jack and his wife, Anne, were found shot dead; their 10-year-old daughter, Elizabeth, had been bludgeoned to death with the same rifle used to kill her parents.

much more at link above