France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[graceholl]

Not that a whole lot makes sense to me in this case, as eloquently summed up in Snoopter's post on the previous page, but THIS is now what is playing on my mind. Hopefully someone is more well read on this and can help me out!

- The location of the car: seemingly parked in a lay by - was this lay by up in the mountains, or heading away from the campsite into a city/town nearby?
- It looks as though the BMW was bay-parked into the lay by...could the killer have been waiting and held them at gun point whilst telling the driver to pull over?
- If the neighbours were saying the Al-Hilli's trip was spontaneous/a bit 'hush hush' then who would have known they were going on holiday, let alone where exactly they were going? I know from personal experience most people let their neighbours know when they are off because of pet feeding/keys/watching the house etc, but would anyone who wanted the family dead know they were going? Especially if, as reports have alluded to, Saad and his brother were somewhat estranged

Sorry for the ramble. But if anyone can help me paint a clearer picture of the car/where they were off to I'd much appreciate it!

ETA: What are people's theories - do you think they were followed, or do you think the gunman lay in wait?

 

[graceholl]

Apologies if already posted

From the Independent (snipped)

"Examination of bullets found in the bodies, including two in the head of each victim and five in the cyclist’s back, has allowed ballistic experts to establish a tentative order of events. They believe that Saad al-Hilli, 50, a British-Iraqi aeronautical engineer, was the first to be shot behind the wheel of his wine-coloured BMW estate car.

The gunman then shot the two women on the back-seat of the car, Mr al-Hilli’s wife, Iqbal, 47, and her 77-year-old Swedish-Iraqi mother. The last person to die was Mr Mollier, reinforcing the view that he was murdered because he stumbled on the scene of the massacre. The gun would have to be re-loaded at least once."

 

[graceholl]

And this is another interesting read.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/the-al-hilli-conundrum/comment-page-1/#comments

EDIT I have stumbled across this guy's website before - he's a former ambassador and I believe quite clued up on British intelligence/defence etc.

 

[Lola68]

ETA: What are people's theories - do you think they were followed, or do you think the gunman lay in wait?

A local builder has reported seeing the car in the lay by for about an hour, so I think it was an agreed meet point and they weren't followed. If the hitman (or woman) was not the person they thought they were meeting then whoever they had arranged to meet could have been intercepted (although no evidence of this - unless it was the French cyclist, but that also seems unlikely?) which is why the family were waiting for some time.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-11-05-03-17
bbm
French police say a single weapon was used in to kill four people in the Alps, and investigators are again scouring the scene of the crime.

Investigators have at last confirmed the identity of the other victim, according to the Sipa news agency. The agency reports she is the Swedish-Iraqi mother-in-law of the car's driver,

 

[ScotsPaddy]

A local builder has reported seeing the car in the lay by for about an hour, so I think it was an agreed meet point and they weren't followed. If the hitman (or woman) was not the person they thought they were meeting then whoever they had arranged to meet could have been intercepted (although no evidence of this - unless it was the French cyclist, but that also seems unlikely?) which is why the family were waiting for some time.

Hi Lola,im not sure if the builder saw the family actually in the layby for an hr,i thought he said they drove past him heading towards the layby,but then i could be wrong...

 

[graceholl]

A local builder has reported seeing the car in the lay by for about an hour, so I think it was an agreed meet point and they weren't followed. If the hitman (or woman) was not the person they thought they were meeting then whoever they had arranged to meet could have been intercepted (although no evidence of this - unless it was the French cyclist, but that also seems unlikely?) which is why the family were waiting for some time.

Why on earth would you agree to meet someone in a lay-by? Even more so with your entire family...if it was something dodgy going on (this is me thinking out loud). The only time I can remember stopping in that kind of lay by for any amount of time was on holiday in Corsica as a child - we were with another family and would regularly stop in lay bys to let them catch up with the convoy/for a wee stop/coffee break. There's definitely something fishy about them being in the lay by for an hour IMO. Also, weren't the family they were camping with left at the campsite? Who else would they have been meeting?

I'm just reading through the comments on the Craig Murray blog I posted and a lot of commenters are suggesting French cyclist SM may have a lot more to do with this than meets the eye - some even saying that the Al Hilli family were the unlucky witnesses.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

And this is another interesting read.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/the-al-hilli-conundrum/comment-page-1/#comments

EDIT I have stumbled across this guy's website before - he's a former ambassador and I believe quite clued up on British intelligence/defence etc.

Thanks for that linkie graceholl,theres some really good comments on that blog.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

You would think that if witness cyclist was MI5 or similar and was shadowing shot cyclist that he would be armed himself..

 

[rotterdam]

Sorry if this theory has been posted already but could it have been a set-up? Father increasingly worried about family's safety, so arranges 'holiday' to France which is in fact an opportunity to get the family to Switzerland with mother-in-law. Arranges to meet at secluded spot to pick up e.g. fake passports for his wife and children (only 2 passports found in the car, one of which was the mother in law's) - might also explain why the whole family were in the car - but it turns out to be a set up (or rendez-vous plans were intercepted) and the family are killed.

Does anyone know what else the family had with them in the car? Travel bags, money etc?

There was mention of bags in the car. One of the reasons why the 4 year old initially was missed besides her mom's skirts.

 

[graceholl]

Thanks for that linkie graceholl,theres some really good comments on that blog.

This one has piqued my interest (I think it should be allowed because it is commentary following a news report - if I'm wrong, sorry mods!)

“I noticed this on the initial TV coverage as it basically says that the road is only suitable for motor vehicles for another 5km. As far as the car was concerned, they were driving a cul-de-sac. However, there appear to by myriad tracks in that part of the valley which would easily be accessible by mountain bike or on foot.”

EDIT And have a look at one poster doing some interesting calculations re: the two cyclists...

 

[~n/t~]

And this is another interesting read.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/the-al-hilli-conundrum/comment-page-1/#comments

EDIT I have stumbled across this guy's website before - he's a former ambassador and I believe quite clued up on British intelligence/defence etc.

I wonder how he knows about Al-Hilli being on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran? :waitasec:

 

[graceholl]

Another interesting dilemma:

Supposedly 20-40 shots fired, many directly through victims' foreheads. Not one sign of blood on car windscreen, windows, or upholstery in photograph...(apart from one medium sized blotch on the very back seat possibly - don't know what that is but my first thought was that it was blood). Is it even possible for it to be so "clean"? :/

*scratches head*

 

[graceholl]

I wonder how he knows about Al-Hilli being on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran? :waitasec:

I was surprised to stumble across this blog this morning actually; a family friend (wife of Brit MI5) died last yr - reported as tragic accident. Was a suicide and only this guy flagged it up online, and I remember finding the same blog last year. Odd. Don't know how he knew, but I'm guessing he has a lot of mates in the know...

 

[Clio]

Now it seems that it wasn't the ex-RAF cyclist who called the emergency services.

On Tuesday, the first person to alert the emergency services to the brutal killings spoke for the first time about the horror he had seen.

The first person to alert emergency services to the horrific murder of four people in the French Alps said he felt like he was "in a scene from a film".

The witness, from the Savoie region of the Alps, had planned a hike with two friends in the Alpine beauty spot on the afternoon of September 5, the day of the murders.

Speaking for the first time on Tuesday to French newspaper Aujourd’hui France / Le Parisien, the witness, known as Philippe D, recalled realising something terrible had happened when their car was approached by a panicked cyclist – the British former RAF serviceman who had discovered the crime scene.

"The man was coming down the road. He was clearly panicked and emotional. He tried to explain to me in broken French that something had happened further up the road," Philippe D said.

He was trying to alert the emergency services, but either he did not have a phone or had no coverage."

Philippe D and his two friends then followed the cyclist back up the road where they found Saad al-Hilli, 50, his wife Ikbal, 47, and her 74 year-old mother shot dead in their car. Sylvain Mollier, a French cyclist who had also been gunned down, was lying metres away. It is believed Mollier, a father of three, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

'We had no idea if we were alone'

"I approached the car, but there was clearly no sign of life. I did not touch anything, and I realised there was nothing we could do," he said.

He then saw the couple's seven-year-old daughter Zainab lying near the car. She had been bludgeoned over the head and shot in the shoulder.

"She would not respond to us," Philippe D said. "I tapped her on the shoulder and said a few words in English, but she did not react. I presumed she was dead.

He had to descend the mountain road in order to get a signal to call the police. Emergency services arrived within minutes of his call.

Unlike the British cyclist, Philippe D did not see a dark-coloured 4x4 and a motorbike driving away from the crime scene at the time of the murders.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120911..._france_chevaline_annecy_claygate_alps_murder

 

[~n/t~]

Another interesting dilemma:

Supposedly 20-40 shots fired, many directly through victims' foreheads. Not one sign of blood on car windscreen, windows, or upholstery in photograph...(apart from one medium sized blotch on the very back seat possibly - don't know what that is but my first thought was that it was blood). Is it even possible for it to be so "clean"? :/

*scratches head*

And while we're on the vehicle discussion, what is on the roof of the vehicle? :waitasec:

 

[graceholl]

And while we're on the vehicle discussion, what is on the roof of the vehicle? :waitasec:

Looks like a broken roof rack for bikes. (Is that what you mean?)


ETA Does look like there has been some serious impact there though, actually...

 

[Lola68]

And this is another interesting read.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/the-al-hilli-conundrum/comment-page-1/#comments

EDIT I have stumbled across this guy's website before - he's a former ambassador and I believe quite clued up on British intelligence/defence etc.

This site has some really interesting points amongst the conspiracy theories, and some I hadn't considered before, such as:

- Apparent time between ex-RAF man being overtaken by Mollier (5 mins) and the former arriving at the scene would put him very close to the scene at the time of the shooting - so he would have heard something
- Looks as though there was a bike on top of the roof of the BMW that was ripped off (?)
- The only testimony we have at the moment is the ex-RAF 'cyclist' (if he did in fact arrive on bike)
- Very little blood in the car given the head wounds - possibility that they were shot outside of the car execution style?

And another thought that's been bugging me - how did the ex-RAF man turn off the engine if the doors were locked - would he have been able to reach through the window (given that police wouldn't touch them for fear of disturbing ballistics evidence) without breaking the glass? Maybe the engine wasn't on at all (expecially if they'd been in the lay by for 1 hour). Maybe they had all been dead for 1 hour when the ex-RAF man 'arrived on the scene'. Time of death will be interesting in view of current testimony and when emergency call made to police (and whether it was to French police or UK police - I holiday in France every year but don't know the emergency numbers off the top of my head)

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19514794

The BBC understands there was a dispute between Mr al-Hilli and his brother over inheritance from their parents.
Saad al-Hilli Mr al-Hilli's daughters are believed to be the only witnesses to Wednesday's killings

This involved a house in Spain left by the men's father, who died last year.

And for the first time since the shootings, French police have lifted a road block some two miles from the site - where blood-stained pebbles, tyre marks and small shards of glass could still be seen.

A dent at the back of the car park where the family's BMW estate hit a bank of dirt during the attack was also visible.

 

[Clio]

A local builder has reported seeing the car in the lay by for about an hour, so I think it was an agreed meet point and they weren't followed. If the hitman (or woman) was not the person they thought they were meeting then whoever they had arranged to meet could have been intercepted (although no evidence of this - unless it was the French cyclist, but that also seems unlikely?) which is why the family were waiting for some time.

From post #271 the builder doesn't say he saw the car in the layby - he saw it pass the house he was working on about an hour before the incident was reported.

Interestingly I saw a BBC News reporter on TV at the time recounting the builders story but have never seen it make it into print in the british press.

Hi Lola,im not sure if the builder saw the family actually in the layby for an hr,i thought he said they drove past him heading towards the layby,but then i could be wrong...

I think you are correct

Post #271 says

.....

Laurent Fillion-Robin, 38, was doing building work on a house in Chevaline when he saw the family's red BMW approaching. He said he saw the car between 2.30pm and 3pm. The shooting was reported to police at 3.58pm by a former RAF serviceman who was cycling past.

"I saw an English car coming up the road from the village," said Mr Fillion-Robin, who has not yet been interviewed by police. "There were no other cars with it. I did not see or hear any other cars pass by that afternoon."

The house is the final property before the road climbs 3km to the car park in a national park above Lake Annecy.

.......