GUILTY GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5

[JayWill]

I don't want to appear as if I'm arguing the defenses case or what not. Just trying to figure out what their defense is. With that said, this entire defense had to come about after it all happened. They are making lemonade out of piss, right? And I'm trying to figure out what their case is.

That said, I do agree with what you're saying. But it's the probable cause of it that the McMichaels would be getting at. It doesn't have to be burglary -- just probable cause to believe it was. As far as Albenze, they might have expected a degree of good ole boy cooperation but didn't get it. You know? I'm just guessing on that.

It's hard for me to come up with a case for the defense because I don't believe in the defense. This was the best I could muster, I think. (And I don't buy my own theory, so...) Thanks for helping me parse through it. You have any ideas if you pretended to be the defense? It's kind of intriguing to try to think like them -- even if I do need a shower afterward.

BBM. You couldn't think like them. No reasonable person could.

 

[JayWill]

I apologize, as I haven’t had the time to follow as closely as I want (even though I have devoted hours to these threads and the trial!).
I assume the judge ruled that the expletive uttered when AA’s body was turned over was inadmissible for some reason? Or did the prosecution choose not to include that in order to minimize the racial aspect of this case? (As if…!)

thanks for any information/clarity on this.

I think we’ll have a verdict tomorrow—fingers crossed. MOO

And I don't get that. This is the whole crux of the case. If you are going to pussy foot around it, it will never end.

 

[SuperTmo]

I do think they thought he committed a criminal act but I also agree that they wanted to terrorize him, which they did. I cannot imagine the fear that poor young man experienced as he tried to escape these monsters with their trucks, guns and mind-set to get him-- and ultimately to kill him. It hurts my heart and if they are acquitted , well I don't want to think they will be: in fact, I can't even imagine how that would be possible- but I am reality based so I know it is possible.

I’m sure they assumed he committed a crime, but they had no real reason to believe that. They assumed it based on him being a black man.

 

[SuperTmo]

I think they’re claiming that based on what they saw on the night of Feb 11, that AA running fast through the neighborhood with the neighbor pointing (I know the prosecutor proved they didn’t see the neighbor) on the 23rd gave them probable cause to think he had just committed a burglary. So therefore they had the right to make a citizen’s arrest. I think that’s what they are arguing. JMO.

How were they even sure that was Ahmaud on the night of the 11th? Did Larry English show them the video, or are they going by TM seeing a black man? How were they sure it was even the same guy they saw when they first saw Ahmaud running that day? He was running away from them. How’d they recognize him?

 

[SuperTmo]

I'm just going off the top of my head, but burglary has the intent to commit an underlying crime -- Theft, rape, kidnapping, etc. It's a felony in GA. No misdemeanor.

Trespassing is an unlawful presence at a place. I think that's it. You've been told not to be there and you're there. It's a misdemeanor, but I assume you can also commit felony trespassing. IDK.

Burglary is broken down into 1st or second degree, whether it's a dwelling or a construction site. That is why the lawyers argued about what English's house is considered. But I think in the charging document, they made it the same thing for the purposes of what the jurors can decide AA was doing.

That's what I don't like about the case. The jurors and the defendants can guess at AA's intent, but the prosecution hasn't been allowed to. In the charging doc, the judge said they can infer that he was burgling if it was an unlawful presence in a place where there are items of value, and you can infer no other reason for him to be there.

I assume the jury will apply that same rule to TM and GM, so they will think it was reasonable for TM and GM to think AA was a burglar, based on the criteria in the charge doc.

Thank you. Crazy to think they can decide his intent. He never stole anything while there at night, so why would he start on a Sunday in broad daylight? (Rhetorical question, not expecting anyone to have an answer).

 

[SuperTmo]

Well, I was thinking that they were trying to tie that to the escaping or attempting to escape a felony -- the Burglary.

See, if Albenze called 911 to report AA in the house, that's the burglary. And they know AA committed burglary before on Feb 11th, according to them. LD begs to differ. If Albenze communicated to them that the burglar was there burgling, then it's now okay to chase AA because he's fleeing a felony. It's like Albenze was pointing, indicating the fleeing burglar that they can now apprehend. It's that "totality of the circumstances" thing.

Too bad for them, Albenze was like, "I wasn't signaling them..."

It's not neat, but it's all they got in retrospect. Am I making sense? I know there are flaws in it, but this is what I was thinking their case was before the Albenze thing fell apart. Now I don't know what the case is.

Did he say what he was pointing at then? Is he denying pointing for their benefit as a way to cover his own behind?

Cause it sounds like he was pointing in the direction that Ahmaud ran, right? I wonder if the defendants can claim (or if the jury can believe) they thought he was signaling them and it would count still, since there is so much they are allowed to assume about the intent of others in this case.

 

[Boxer]

Well, I was thinking that they were trying to tie that to the escaping or attempting to escape a felony -- the Burglary.

See, if Albenze called 911 to report AA in the house, that's the burglary. And they know AA committed burglary before on Feb 11th, according to them. LD begs to differ. If Albenze communicated to them that the burglar was there burgling, then it's now okay to chase AA because he's fleeing a felony. It's like Albenze was pointing, indicating the fleeing burglar that they can now apprehend. It's that "totality of the circumstances" thing.

Too bad for them, Albenze was like, "I wasn't signaling them..."

It's not neat, but it's all they got in retrospect. Am I making sense? I know there are flaws in it, but this is what I was thinking their case was before the Albenze thing fell apart. Now I don't know what the case is.

Wasn't first hand.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Based on how the jury wanted to keep working today, IMO there's a 100% chance they have verdicts by Friday. 80% they have them by Wednesday. Perhaps around lunchtime.

I'm going with 1st Degree for both the McMichael's. Bryan really should get at a minimum 2nd Degree, the Prosecutor's closing explained how he's just as culpable. But the jury might be sympathetic to him, and go even lower. For me it would be a question of 1st or 2nd for Bryan.

I think the Defense wants them out another day. Hoping that they're wrangling over 1st vs 2nd vs 3rd degree, or even a couple of holdouts. I tend to think that if they've come to a relatively quick decision, it's on Guilty for all 3.

 

[Rhibread]

And I don't get that. This is the whole crux of the case. If you are going to pussy foot around it, it will never end.

This had to do with the statement being considered hearsay (Roddie Bryan told investigators that he heard Travis say it). Roddie was not testifying so they weren't able to ask him about the statement, nor could they ask Travis without having Roddie as a testifying witness. I'm sure there are more elements to it, but from my understanding at least it is similar to the Bruton rule issues that didn't allow the jury to view the police bodycam videos because they could be unfair to codefendants. I'm obviously not a legal expert by any means but it made sense when they explained it all the other day.

I would hope that the statement will come in during their federal trial though

 

[Niner]

The rest of the tweets for Tues., Nov. 23rd:

Veronica Waters
@MissVWaters
·
11h
As the #AhmaudArbery shooting case jury deliberates, Kevin Gough said, "To be a mother and see that stuff up there about your son & hear it, it's got to be tough. For Marcus, Sr., it's also got to be tough. Problem for the lawyers...we get tunnel vision for our client."



Kevin Gough says, "We get tunnel vision for our client, but there's a lot more going on here than just them. They're the ones most greatly immediately impacted, but this family's waited a long time to have their day in court."

Kevin Gough said of #AhmaudArbery's parents, "This family's waited a long time to have their day in court. We don't know what justice looks like in this case for them, but we don't want to lose sight of the fact that they're human beings, too."

I'm told Court is getting ready to convene again. Reason unclear; the jury may have a question or status update.

Judge Walmsley says it's 10 of 6:00 PM, so he's going to call in the jury foreperson and ask if a verdict is imminent, and if it's not, tell them they can go home unless they want to keep deliberating.



"We are in the process of working to reach a verdict," the jury forewoman tells Judge Walmsley, who tells her he's willing to go later if that assists them. "At this moment, I think breaking for the day would be the best option for the jury," she says.



HAPPENING NOW: "Apparently, they wish to continue," Judge Walmsley tells everyone. The #AhmaudArbery shooting case jury won't be heading home for the night just yet



Back in the courtroom for another update.

Judge Walmsley says the #AhmaudArbery shooting case jury is ready to break for the night.

Judge Walmsley tells #AhmaudArbery shooting case jury we'll adjourn for the night, & return for deliberations at 8:30. He tells them not to deliberate or discuss the case unless & until they're all together, in the jury room, gives the daily instructions, thanks them.

A reporter asked Kevin Gough about possible appeal issues. Gough said, "An appeal? We're going to win. I don't know what y'all are talking about. Roddie's walking out of that courthouse."

link: https://twitter.com/MissVWaters


Okay - from the above tweet & what has been posted by others here - the Judge called the jury foreperson in at 5:50pm & then a post by someone here (stamped at 1:19am MY time here in Europe/would be about 6:19pm in Georgia) - that the jury has gone home for the day.

So... from what I gather on the first day of deliberations - they started at about 11:30am and deliberated until about 6:20pm. So about 6 1/2 hours.

Has anyone seem the "actual" times for deliberations for yesterday? Otherwise I'm going with my "guess".
TIA if someone can help me with the time.

 

[Niner]

Wednesday, Nov. 24th:
*Trial continues (Day 14) – VERDICT WATCH! (Day 2) (@ 8:30am ET) - GA – Ahmaud Marquez Arbery (25) (Feb. 23, 2020, shot while jogging in Satilla Shores neighborhood, Brunswick) - *Gregory Johns McMichael (64/now 65) arrested (5/7/20) & charged (5/8/20) with felony murder & aggravated assault. Indicted (6/24/20), charged & arraigned (7/17/20) with 1 count of malice murder, 4 counts of felony murder, 2 counts of aggravated assault, 1 count of false imprisonment & 1 count of criminal attempt to commit a felony. Plead not guilty. Held without bond. Bond denied (11/13/20).
*Travis James McMichael (34/now 35) arrested (5/7/20) & charged (5/8/20) with felony murder & aggravated assault. Indicted (6/24/20), charged & arraigned (7/17/20) with 1 count of malice murder, 4 counts of felony murder, 2 counts of aggravated assault (count 7: aggravated assault with trucks-added 11/19/21), 1 count of false imprisonment & 1 count of criminal attempt to commit a felony. Plead not guilty. Held without bond. Bond denied (11/13/20).
*William “Roddie” Roderick Bryan, Jr. (50/now 51) arrested & charged (5/21/20) with felony murder & criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. Indicted (6/24/20), charged & arraigned (7/17/20) with 1 count of malice murder, 4 counts of felony murder, 2 counts of aggravated assault (count 7: aggravated assault with trucks-added 11/19/21), 1 count of false imprisonment & 1 count of criminal attempt to commit a felony. Plead not guilty. Held without bond.
Trial began on 10/18/21 with jury selection & ended on 11/3/21. Trial began on 11/5/21. Jurors: 5 men & 11 women with 4 alternates. 15 white/1 black jurors. 11/4/21: Juror #579 was excused, sick. Alternates now 3. 11/23/21: Jury deliberated for 6 1/2 hours. (started ~11:30am ET to ~6:20pm).
Court info from 5/8/20 thru 10/17/21 & Jury selection (Day 1-12) 10/18/21-11/3/21 & Trial (Day 1-12) 11/5/21 to 11/22/21(State rested their case on 11/16/21 & defenses rested on 11/18/21) reference post #551 here:
GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5
11/23/21 Tuesday, Trial Day 13: Defense attorney Bob Rubin files motion for mistrial based, saying prosecution misstated law regarding citizen's arrest. The team for Kevin Gough joined. Judge denies motion for mistrial.
for more info see posts #563 & 574 here:
GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5
ADA Linda Dunikoski does State's rebuttal.
for info see post #578 here:
GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5
Rebuttal closing continued.
for more info see posts #589, 596 & 600 here:
GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5
Judge Walmsley has finished charging the Ahmaud Arbery shooting case jury; Frank Hogue raised objection to the citizen's arrest chase language; Kevin Gough renews "the many mistrial motions" he's made.
for more info see posts #612 & 618 here:
GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former LEO and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 *Arrests* #5
Jury has retired to the jury room for deliberation. They will start once they have all of the evidence for the Court & the verdict form. About 6:30pm Eastern European time – 11:30am Eastern Time…. Jury stopped deliberations at about 6:20pm ET. About 6 1/2 hours.
Jury deliberations continued on 11/24/21.
The judge agreed to instruct the jury on lesser charges for Bryan: simple assault, reckless conduct & reckless driving.
*Federal charges: *Travis James McMichael (34/now 35) & *Gregory Johns McMichael & *William “Roddie” Roderick Bryan, Jr. Next motions hearing on 12/20/21, pretrial hearing 1/21/22 & trial set to begin on 2/7/22.

 

[Niner]

Okay - just found an article on the deliberations time.

November 23, 2021 Ahmaud Arbery killing trial and jury deliberations

Nov. 23, 2021

The jury in the trial of three men accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery finished deliberations for the day and is breaking for the night.

The jurors will reconvene at 8:30 a.m. ET Wednesday.

The Jury spent just over six hours deliberating today, beginning at 11:53 a.m. and ending around 6:20 p.m. ET.

 

[Niner]

I'll change my hours of starting per the article above. Still about 6 1/2 hours....

 

[Smkd]

Good morning everyone!

Just caught the jurors going home last night before I went to bed (I’m in the other side of the Atlantic).
I’m thinking that they are fairly close to a verdict given that they wanted to continue deliberating. Just speculation though. If they weren’t getting anywhere or not being productive they may have just asked to go home, and who could blame them after the whole trial and being there since 8:30. So them insisting on continuing made me think that they feel like they’re close. What do you guys think?

 

[ilovewings]

And I don't get that. This is the whole crux of the case. If you are going to pussy foot around it, it will never end.

But, but ,but that statement would never be allowed in a trial dontcha know because it would too prejudicial against the poor lil' ol defendant--- so the jury will never know these trash heaps stood over the dying or dead black man and said that- and as you said that is the crux of the case--- there is something wrong with a so called justice system that does not allow reality to be part of the process

 

[JayWill]

But, but ,but that statement would never be allowed in a trial dontcha know because it would too prejudicial against the poor lil' ol defendant--- so the jury will never know these trash heaps stood over the dying or dead black man and said that- and as you said that is the crux of the case--- there is something wrong with a so called justice system that does not allow reality to be part of the process

SMH. So prejudice is a one way street.

 

[sds71]

In the year and a half since Arbery's killing, neighbors have come and gone. Fourteen homes have sold in Satilla Shores since March 2020.

But Larry English remains undecided if he'll ever live in the unfinished board-and-batten-style cottage.
Before English bought the home, the vacant lot was used by neighbors for small gatherings, parking and was sometimes an area where children played.
Elizabeth Graddy, English's attorney, told the Savannah Morning News, that her client likely won't live at the houseif the three men are acquitted of Arbery's murder.

"I think it's fair to say," she said, "he wants to see how this trial plays out."
She recalled him telling her, "I don’t see how I could live there if these men are acquitted.'

Sharon Selzer and her husband, Richard, who are white, estimated there were about 10 families of color living in Satilla Shores.
Selzer, 63, moved into the neighborhood three years ago. A sign outside her quaint home reads, "We believe Black Lives Matter, No Human is Illegal, Love is Love... Injustice anywhere is a threat to injustice everywhere."

"I want people to know where I stand," Selzer said as the trial played on her TV in her living room. "It’s hard to watch. It’s weird because we’re seeing our front yard."

Ahmaud Arbery killing has left this Satilla Shores 'dream' home vacant

 

[Hope4More]

I agree with that. I think the fact that they didn't see Albenze proves that they didn't even have probable cause that it was tied to English's house. You can't be chasing somebody without probable cause that they are fleeing arrest for a felony.

LD left me with a big missing link to tie their citizen's arrest to a burglary of the English house on Sunday.

Have you ever seen this video (below)? It's body cam of a LEO arriving at the scene within minutes of AA's killing.

There's Travis (who is repeatedly comforted by another, female LEO, who knows who Greg is & that he used to be one of them). There's Greg, who early in asks if they're going to handcuff Travis. The female LEO asks- why would we do that?

(At 10:55 on the vid) Greg is asked to tell them again what happened. Here's all he comes up with for probable cause, before he calls DA Jackie Johnson while still on the scene.

*Identifies AA as "this same guy."

*Says "several nights ago....on numerous occasions he keeps breaking into the house up here."

*"And they have it on video"

*"But no one could ever catch him"

*Tells tale of Travis seeing AA on 2/11 (says "couple of nights ago") Included that AA "hauled " into the house when he knew he had been seen

* Emphasized repeatedly that AA has gone into "the house" on "numerous" times, but also says at one point it was 2-3 times, which would have been the accurate number Greg was told by Rash on 2/11, including that night. (Oct, Nov, Feb 11. English didn't find his video of AA on site in December until after AA's murder).

*Says, "I've seen these videos & I know what he looks like. I'm standing in my yard & he comes hauling down the street like something is after him."

*(Goes into the house & tells Travis) " THE GUY is running down the street, let's go let's go let's go..."

* (We arm ourselves, not taking any chances), "we get into the truck & get up to this intersection & we see him heading down (Burford). Travis hauls after him, tries to cut him off...."

THAT'S IT FOR PROBABLE CAUSE.

(I'm sure it didn't escape you that Greg doesn't say anything about seeing Albenze, much less Albenze pointing the way).

 

[Hope4More]

Good morning everyone!

Just caught the jurors going home last night before I went to bed (I’m in the other side of the Atlantic).
I’m thinking that they are fairly close to a verdict given that they wanted to continue deliberating. Just speculation though. If they weren’t getting anywhere or not being productive they may have just asked to go home, and who could blame them after the whole trial and being there since 8:30. So them insisting on continuing made me think that they feel like they’re close. What do you guys think?

I listened to the foreWOMAN speaking to the judge. (She sounded like one of the younger jurors, btw). Reading tea leaves, all IMO. She didn't sound stressed at all (good). She wanted the jury to go home or misread what she believed they wanted, but they didn't want to go & kept deliberating, suggesting they want to get it done & believe it's possible (no hanging), even if they are not close to deciding all verdicts for all 3 (good).

I don't think they want this hanging over them for days & during the family time holiday of Thanksgiving. Guessing verdict today, and maybe even earlier rather than later.

 

[Betty P]

I’m sure they assumed he committed a crime, but they had no real reason to believe that. They assumed it based on him being a black man.

True. Assuming or suspecting someone of committing a crime doesn't mean anyone has the right to be judge, jury and executioner. Even if someone were stealing from or vandalizing a property, it's not a capital crime. Those crimes don't call for people to be shot dead in the street. Turn them in to police.

Why is that so difficult for some people to understand? Castle Doctrine doesn't give you a free pass to kill anyone you don't like or be a vigilante.