GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020

[Trino]

The real problem is the vigilante law that lets ordinary citizens pretend they are Clint Eastwood (in past years, of course). What happened to calling the police?

 

[Cryptic]

As far as good faith or a reason to detain him, its undetermined exactly how that happened but I've heard he saw him peering into the window of a recently burglarized home under construction.

Does not matter at all. Georgia law is very specific. Those attempting a citizens arrest must either witness or have direct knowledge of a felony. "Peering into a window", whether from 20 feet or two feet, is not a felony.

2. Yes, he was escaping, would not wait for LEO to arrive.

One cannot be "escaping" from people who have no authority to detain him. Likewise, he had no obligation to wait for a LEO.

There was no reason he had to commit violence, they weren't shooting at him.

I would presume that people chasing me and then jumping out of a truck and rushing at me with a shot gun and a pistol had bad intent.

I can't recall ANYONE convicted of murder who was attacked first and used their gun in self defense.

Convictions like this happen all the time in inner city violence where assailants initiate attacks on other parties. The fact that the assailants in the case are white and possibly middle class does not matter.

Maybe there is a case somewhere?

There is: Group of men attempt to detain somebody whom they have no lawful authority to do so. They attempt to corner the person. Advance with weapons draw (very bad intent).

They then kill the individual when he attempts to defend himself. Nobody needs to wait to be shot before attempting to defend oneself. ​

 

[Alpha Bravo]

in response to posts that seem to assume that the father and son neighborhood crime fighting duo actually told Arbery "hey we have called police - please wait until they arrive"

Is there some sort of info in MSM that they said that or anything to that effect? All I have seen thus far is this:

Gregory McMichael told police that he shouted to Arbery, “Stop, stop, we want to talk to you,” before, according to their statements, they pulled up beside him in their truck.

in addition,from the same and multiple other links: Only one burglary was reported to the Glynn County Police Department in the Satilla Shores neighborhood between Jan. 1 and Feb. 23, and it involved a pistol taken from a pickup truck outside of Travis McMichael’s home, the Brunswick News reported.

I can find no evidence that that vehicle break-in was witnessed or captured on video.

Several articles containing the two 911 calls involved in this travesty state that the 911 caller at 1:08pm is quoted as saying:

In an earlier call at 1.08pm, a different unidentified caller reports “a guy in a house right now, a house under construction”. The dispatcher asks if the man is breaking into the property, to which the caller responds: “No, it’s all open, it’s under construction.”

The caller then says, “He’s running right now, and there he goes right now,” referring to Arbery, who was taking his usual jog around the neighborhood. The dispatcher asks: “OK, what is he doing?” The caller replies: “He’s running down the street.”

A few second later, the dispatcher says: “I just need to know what he was doing wrong. Was he just on the premises and not supposed to be?”

EVEN IF the black male who was seen on the under construction property was Arbery, it is confirmed in the 911 call at 1:08 the property was not closed - erego - no breakin. Nothing to this day that I can find has been reported missing from that job site (ie. stolen/burgled/absconded with) on that day. At most he would be guilty of simple trespass. Certainly nothing that required an armed response from an alleged seasoned veteran former LEO and DA investigator.

I don't think a man who is jogging in broad daylight on a public thoroughfare, where he regularly did the exact same thing, is required to be psychically aware that:
a) a theft occurred in the neighborhood on a completely separate day,
b) that one the men chasing him and attempting to engage in a confrontation with him is former LE attempting some sort of ill conceived citizens arrest, and
c) that these men weren't there to rob, or otherwise harass or harm him HIM. (which they in fact fatally did)

Here it's mentioned on CNN, there was some $2,500 in fishing equipment stolen out of a boat in the garage. Evidently, they caught the guy on camera several times but a police report wasn't filed. Perhaps they will play the vids in court.
South Georgia community demands justice for Ahmaud Arbery's death - CNN

Also, his friends and family say, if it ain't rainin', he's jogging. (Dad: He lives the next street over) ... Though we have also heard, he lived 4 miles away and 12 miles away. I'm not believing he was such a fanatic jogger, why would everyone just buy that story off hand? And not wait for more details, like where he actually lived? People are saying all kinds of things like they were a fact. Racist supremacists, hunted him down, murdered in cold blood, what a flood of fake news!

Also, walking through a burgled home, under construction, casing it out for a night time raid? Just trespassing? Well, if it was me, I would want the police checking him out, wouldn't you? The citizen's arrest on that one is perhaps a liner. It certainly won't cause a murder 1 conviction, saying all he did was trespass, should just ignore him.

In the meantime, the GBI heard the mob and arrested them right away, no questions asked. Let the true facts flow!

 

[tlcya]

Here it's mentioned on CNN, there was some $2,500 in fishing equipment stolen out of a boat in the garage. Evidently, they caught the guy on camera several times but a police report wasn't filed. Perhaps they will play the vids in court.
South Georgia community demands justice for Ahmaud Arbery's death - CNN

SBM for brevity

thank you. From your link with bolded emphasis by me:

The alleged rash of burglaries
Greg McMichael told Glynn County police that Arbery was suspected in "several break-ins," but no such string of crimes was reported in the weeks before the shooting. Police have yet to clarify whether Arbery is accused of any crime at a home that was being built.

The owner of the under-construction home, who is listed as a victim in the police incident report, said his surveillance system captured at least four short clips of a man who appeared to be Arbery "coming onto his property" February 23. He declined to share them with CNN and spoke on the condition of anonymity because he says he's been receiving death threats.

The man walked by the garage and down to a dock on the Little Satilla River, the motion-triggered cameras show, according to the homeowner. Asked whether they showed the man stealing or committing any other crime, he said they show him "trespassing."

[SNIP with my own notes inserted in brackets]

Prior to Arbery's shooting, the man said in a second interview Wednesday, the cameras on three or four occasions captured someone walking on the property at night -- one time stealing $2,500 of fishing tackle from a boat in his garage -- but he could not identify the perpetrator.

[so something is now alleged as stolen but was not prior to the day of the fatal shooting and that alleged theft occurred on another occasion by someone who cannot be identified as the unarmed and dead victim]

 

[Cryptic]

Also, walking through a burgled home, under construction, casing it out for a night time raid? Just trespassing?

The owner of the home said the individual had only trespassed as he poked around the outside of the home and a dock. Trespassing is not a felony (even if the victim and the individual in the video are one and the same).

The assailants had no lawful authority to detain the victim. As a result, he was not "escaping" from their custody. He tried to retreat, then defended himself only after being cornored.

 

[Alpha Bravo]

thank you. From your link with bolded emphasis by me:

The alleged rash of burglaries
Greg McMichael told Glynn County police that Arbery was suspected in "several break-ins," but no such string of crimes was reported in the weeks before the shooting. Police have yet to clarify whether Arbery is accused of any crime at a home that was being built.

The owner of the under-construction home, who is listed as a victim in the police incident report, said his surveillance system captured at least four short clips of a man who appeared to be Arbery "coming onto his property" February 23. He declined to share them with CNN and spoke on the condition of anonymity because he says he's been receiving death threats.

The man walked by the garage and down to a dock on the Little Satilla River, the motion-triggered cameras show, according to the homeowner. Asked whether they showed the man stealing or committing any other crime, he said they show him "trespassing."

[SNIP with my own notes inserted in brackets]

Prior to Arbery's shooting, the man said in a second interview Wednesday, the cameras on three or four occasions captured someone walking on the property at night -- one time stealing $2,500 of fishing tackle from a boat in his garage -- but he could not identify the perpetrator.

[so something is now alleged as stolen but was not prior to the day of the fatal shooting and that alleged theft occurred on another occasion by someone who cannot be identified as the unarmed and dead victim]

They caught him this time, despite running err jogging then as well. You've been on Websleuths a long time, just be careful of premature judgements. There will be a lot more coming out. Let it roll.
Police: Man brought gun to high school basketball game

 

[kaen]

Also, walking through a burgled home, under construction, casing it out for a night time raid? Just trespassing? Well, if it was me, I would want the police checking him out, wouldn't you? The citizen's arrest on that one is perhaps a liner. It certainly won't cause a murder 1 conviction, saying all he did was trespass, should just ignore him.

RSBM. Yes, I would want the police to check out a person who might be casing a place. That said, I want the POLICE, not two vigilantes brandishing guns. Not two men, with one driving in the bed of the pick-up with an open carry gun. Not the occupants of two cars following and cutting off this man as he ran. The job of checking out Mr. Arbery could have been easily done by the police.

These men could have called the police and stayed safe in their cars and followed Mr. Arbery until the police arrived. There was no need to confront him or tell him that they want to talk to him so he has to stop. There was no need for a confrontation or conversation. When did vigilante justice become the actions that are defended?

No one knows if Mr. Arbery did anything wrong. His actions at the house are not in question according to the homeowner. AND, he can't say what he was doing because an armed man left the safety of his vehicle, brandished a gun and told him that he had to stop and talk to him. What was next? Did Mr. Arbery have to remove his clothes to prove he had no gun? No stolen items? Did he have to provide identification to two strangers with a third videoing him? There would be no way that I would comply with a stranger with a gun pointed at me. Mr. Arbery did not know these men. They were not police officers in uniform. They were men in a truck with another car that had stopped in the road behind them. Three men cornering a man jogging down the road.

Do we know if these men were tested for alcohol or drugs? Were the guns confiscated? Doesn't seem like a lot of investigation took place. One of these men went and turned over Mr. Arbery to see if he had a gun and, thus tampered with a crime scene. If these men were victims of a prior robbery, they clearly were going to get after anyone who might be the robber. Maybe the reason he was turned over is because these men were "sure" that he would have had their gun--a further justification. Oddly enough, he had no gun and lost his life because they could not wait for the police--there was no imminent threat just a jogger. Not even a jogger with stolen tools or items from that house he may have been looking at.


Yet, we have a lot of people accusing Mr. Arbery of trespassing, potentially casing a house, taking his past actions and using it to say he was doing something illegal. Funny, how Mr. Arbery, who can't speak for himself, will drug through the mud. Seems like it is business as usual.

 

[Alpha Bravo]

The owner of the home said the individual had only trespassed as he poked around the outside of the home and a dock. Trespassing is not a felony (even if the victim and the individual in the video are one and the same).

The assailants had no lawful authority to detain the victim. As a result, he was not "escaping" from their custody. He tried to retreat, then defended himself only after being cornored.

He wasn't actually cornored, though they could have. He carried a cell phone like everyone else?

<modsnip>

 

[lonetraveler]

1: Father was former LEO, one would think he is familiar with what he can and can't do. The fact he called 911 and wanted Arbery to wait for the police goes in his favor. As far as good faith or a reason to detain him, its undetermined exactly how that happened but I've heard he saw him peering into the window of a recently burglarized home under construction. We'll have to see on that one.

2. Yes, he was escaping, would not wait for LEO to arrive. (He had done this previously when caught with a gun at a ball game.) There was no reason he had to commit violence, they weren't shooting at him. The fact he got violent first goes against him, not for him.

3. They tried to talk to him and get him to stop so he could meet LEO. A lot different story if they hadn't called 911. His multiple evasive escapes caused them to continue to try to stop him to talk to LEO. Again, he was the one who precipitated violence, and hence will let all three men off the hook scot free. Not that anyone likes how this will play out, it's just what's going to happen. I can't recall ANYONE convicted of murder who was attacked first and used their gun in self defense. Maybe there is a case somewhere?

Frankly, if I was out jogging and a pickup and a vehicle was chasing me and the occupants were all locked and loaded I would assume that violence was about to happen and that my life was in danger.

 

[fr brown]

If it was their intention to hunt Arbery down and execute him, then it was beyond stupid to have their friend follow and film it.

Were they justified in trying to detain him? No.
If they had had cause, would they be reasonable in bringing firearms to enforce detention on an unarmed jogging man? No!
Was the outcome foreseeable? Yes.

The above are my opinions, of course.

 

[kaen]

He wasn't actually cornored, though they could have. He carried a cell phone like everyone else?

<modsnip>

He had a car behind him. He had a truck in front of him with a driver with a gun outside of the car.

We don't know if he had a cell phone. The same can be said about these men who left the safety of their home, one who left the safety of his truck while brandishing a gun. They could call 911 and wait out the situation for police to arrive.

It is a ridiculous that an ambushed man who had no idea what was happening should be held to account to call 911 rather than try to flee and get away from the gun toting man. Time was not on his side if he tried to call 911 as he would be a sitting duck as he dialed if these men were going to kill him. They did anyway without seeing a felony take place where they could make a citizens arrest.

 

[lonetraveler]

RSBM. Yes, I would want the police to check out a person who might be casing a place. That said, I want the POLICE, not two vigilantes brandishing guns. Not two men, with one driving in the bed of the pick-up with an open carry gun. Not the occupants of two cars following and cutting off this man as he ran. The job of checking out Mr. Arbery could have been easily done by the police.

These men could have called the police and stayed safe in their cars and followed Mr. Arbery until the police arrived. There was no need to confront him or tell him that they want to talk to him so he has to stop. There was no need for a confrontation or conversation. When did vigilante justice become the actions that are defended?

No one knows if Mr. Arbery did anything wrong. His actions at the house are not on video. AND, he can't say what he was doing because an armed man left the safety of his vehicle, brandished a gun and told him that he had to stop and talk to him. What was next? Did Mr. Arbery have to remove his clothes to prove he had no gun? No stolen items? Did he have to provide identification to two strangers with a third videoing him? There would be no way that I would comply with a stranger with a gun pointed at me. Mr. Arbery did not know these men. They were not police officers in uniform. They were men in a truck with another car that had stopped in the road behind them. Three men cornering a man jogging down the road.

Do we know if these men were tested for alcohol or drugs? Were the guns confiscated? Doesn't seem like a lot of investigation took place. One of these men went and turned over Mr. Arbery to see if he had a gun and, thus tampered with a crime scene. If these men were victims of a prior robbery, they clearly were going to get after anyone who might be the robber. Maybe the reason he was turned over is because these men were "sure" that he would have had their gun--a further justification. Oddly enough, he had no gun and lost his life because they could not wait for the police--there was no imminent threat just a jogger. Not even a jogger with stolen tools or items from that house he may have been looking at.


Yet, we have a lot of people accusing Mr. Arbery of trespassing, potentially casing a house, taking his past actions and using it to say he was doing something illegal. Funny, how Mr. Arbery, who can't speak for himself, will drug through the mud. Seems like it is business as usual.

I'm very surprised a gun didn't magically appear under Arbery's body.

 

[pseudo_hum]

Hopefully, justice will be served.

 

[kaen]

I'm very surprised a gun didn't magically appear under Arbery's body.

Me, too. The friend would have caught that on video then.

 

[tlcya]

I missed where we were informed if Mr. Arbery was carrying a cell phone. Several of the joggers I know do not carry their phones.

Regardless, I agree, much more will come to light now that this case is actually being investigated. Some will be dirt and mudslinging at the victim, some will be pertinent to events of February 23, 2020. Same goes for the accused men.

 

[Alpha Bravo]

RSBM. Yes, I would want the police to check out a person who might be casing a place. That said, I want the POLICE, not two vigilantes brandishing guns. Not two men, with one driving in the bed of the pick-up with an open carry gun. Not the occupants of two cars following and cutting off this man as he ran. The job of checking out Mr. Arbery could have been easily done by the police.

These men could have called the police and stayed safe in their cars and followed Mr. Arbery until the police arrived. There was no need to confront him or tell him that they want to talk to him so he has to stop. There was no need for a confrontation or conversation. When did vigilante justice become the actions that are defended?

No one knows if Mr. Arbery did anything wrong. His actions at the house are not in question according to the homeowner. AND, he can't say what he was doing because an armed man left the safety of his vehicle, brandished a gun and told him that he had to stop and talk to him. What was next? Did Mr. Arbery have to remove his clothes to prove he had no gun? No stolen items? Did he have to provide identification to two strangers with a third videoing him? There would be no way that I would comply with a stranger with a gun pointed at me. Mr. Arbery did not know these men. They were not police officers in uniform. They were men in a truck with another car that had stopped in the road behind them. Three men cornering a man jogging down the road.

Do we know if these men were tested for alcohol or drugs? Were the guns confiscated? Doesn't seem like a lot of investigation took place. One of these men went and turned over Mr. Arbery to see if he had a gun and, thus tampered with a crime scene. If these men were victims of a prior robbery, they clearly were going to get after anyone who might be the robber. Maybe the reason he was turned over is because these men were "sure" that he would have had their gun--a further justification. Oddly enough, he had no gun and lost his life because they could not wait for the police--there was no imminent threat just a jogger. Not even a jogger with stolen tools or items from that house he may have been looking at.


Yet, we have a lot of people accusing Mr. Arbery of trespassing, potentially casing a house, taking his past actions and using it to say he was doing something illegal. Funny, how Mr. Arbery, who can't speak for himself, will drug through the mud. Seems like it is business as usual.

Do you know where he used to live?

 

[Alpha Bravo]

I missed where we were informed if Mr. Arbery was carrying a cell phone. Several of the joggers I know do not carry their phones.

Regardless, I agree, much more will come to light now that this case is actually being investigated. Some will be dirt and mudslinging at the victim, some will be pertinent to events of February 23, 2020. Same goes for the accused men.

It's somewhat maddening, the lack of info. The main evidence is the video, and I am flumaxxed by all the conflicting things people see in it. <modsnip: off topic>

 

[kaen]

Do you know where he used to live?

By "he", I assume you mean Mr. Arbery. Doesn't matter where he lived. He had the right to be on any public street in any neighborhood he liked.

 

[Alpha Bravo]

Confused. Are you arguing that AA might easily have called police on the gun-toting men chasing him down, as they chased him down, and that so doing would have averted his death?

Exactly. If he had stopped in broad daylight, called 911 and stood there, and kept on the phone... what are they going to do? Shoot him after he has given their plate #?

I feel there is a reason why he didn't do that<modsnip>.

 

[kaen]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Last I checked, we have the right to walk, run, drive, pogo-stick wherever we want in this country as long as it is not private property. It may be the first day he jogged or the thousandth. When we get to the point where anyone can impede our travel based on their whim without authority of the law then we have a bigger issue as a country. We have the right to freedom of movement.

No facts to ignore. He was jogging in the area and, as yet, there is no evidence that he had committed a felony or crime that could cause these men to apprehend him. That is a fact. Not anyone's business if he likes fishing more than jogging or whatever. There are no restrictions on where people can travel through. I hope there are not people who want to restrict this freedom of mine or anyone else.