Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #2

[STAGNUM]

According to the 911 call, which you can listen to for yourself below, the caretaker that made the 911 call specifically said:

"I'm not inside the house, it's closed, it's locked and I can't go in, but I see them <snip>".

~1:20 - Gene Hackman 911 Caller Emotional on Phone, Says He Can't See Anyone Moving

So, did 2 different 911 calls get made, from 2 different people, both witnessing different things for there to be a discrepancy in either the house being closed/locked... and the door being ajar?

I think what is going on here, and I have a door like this, the knob is locked, someone trying to turn it would think it is locked. But if someone applies a small amount of force, inward, the door opens because the lock is not engaged fully with the frame. In my case an exterior screen door handle interferes with fully closing the front door unless from inside you really push.

 

[ttjo]

The Truth About Toxicology Tests

WebMD sheds light on toxicology tests: What they include, why they take so long, and why they're never perfect.

www.webmd.com

 

[friendlysleuther]

<snipped>So, for the final report (& final cause of death), it includes both the physical examination of the deceased person, and a toxicology report.
<snipped>

Yes, in IN, The Coroners Association States..

"The cause-of-death statement is unqualified; it connotes a high degree of certainty about its accuracy. Autopsy findings or other proof of the cause of death, although desirable,are not required to constitute a high degree of certainty (or reasonable degree of probability). The degree of certainty is based on all available information, including the medical history, presentation, the sequence of events, diagnostic studies, symptoms,signs, and the probability of certain conditions occurring in the context of the available information. Note the little “trick” used to indicate that the aneurysm existed for years,but the rupture existed for only minutes"

(--Why the official paperwork can take aaawhile)

 

[DS2021]

suspect foul play

It would be really hard to murder 2 people of that age without leaving external trauma

 

[friendlysleuther]

It would be really hard to murder 2 people of that age without leaving external trauma

1. Strangulation
2. Smothering
3. Accidental or Purposeful Food Poisoning
4. Poisoning of drink(s)

In regards to #1 & #2

• Petechiae would have been present initially (most likely) however, after 9 days I would assume they could have dissipated.
• Less than 1/3 of strangulation victims have a broken hyoid bone (Dr. Dean Hawley)

 

[SouthEnd]

Agreed. Occam's razor for me is that she died suddenly from a medical event of some kind and he subsequently died after falling (for whatever reason). They seemed to be huge dog lovers. Dog lovers would never intentionally lock a dog in a crate to die.

That's what makes most sense for me too.

I have some experience with people in their 90s, a grandfather who had a decent quality of life... if he was reminded where everything was. Phone, slippers, clothes, food. If GH had a few health issues but limited mobility and perhaps memory issues, and needed medicine and a person to support him on his day to day tasks, I can believe that once his wife passed he perhaps didn't realise immediately, went without pills, and once he was aware he might have gotten confused and was unfortunately unable to get to a phone.

All moo and speculation.

 

[RedHaus]

https://archive.is/GfFYr

Interesting theories by these 'experts'. Thank you, @dalsglen.

The theory by Mike Sutton (reconstructionist in the Alex Murdaugh case) resonates with my thoughts the most.

IMO BA died first (medical event? suicide? accidental fall?); GH died days later (medical event? accidental fall? malnutrition?) possibly the consequence of his age, frailty and dependence on BA to survive. Perhaps GH was disoriented by the situation so unable to care for the dogs or seek help; their crated dog died last from malnutrition.

I think we'll eventually hear a conclusion that there were three different dates and causes of death, sadly.

 

[IceIce9]

Agreed. Occam's razor for me is that she died suddenly from a medical event of some kind and he subsequently died after falling (for whatever reason). They seemed to be huge dog lovers. Dog lovers would never intentionally lock a dog in a crate to die.

Yes, this.

Furthermore, I will mention that people die every day of undetermined causes. It’s very common. The only reason that this is even a news story is because Gene Hackman is famous and well-known. It is somewhat unusual to have two people die and be undiscovered for a couple of weeks, but it happens.

 

[debirlfan]

Obviously they fell; they were both found on the floor an opposed to lying in bed or sitting in a chair.

I suspect what was meant by the police answer regarding a fall is simply that there were no obvious signs, like a pool of blood and a gash to the temple. I don't think they've gotten autopsy results yet to determine if there were injuries that wouldn't have been apparent to responding officers.

 

[annemc2]

I was sort of surprised at the medications that were found at the scene. Both very common and boring, used for long term management of health conditions. Neither was a rescue med. Diltiazem is often taken at night (to minimize vessel issues that can occur in the morning) and the levothyroxine is usually taken in the morning on an empty stomach.

I had immediately jumped to the conclusion that there were opiates/benzos/etc involved but the med situation was surprisingly wholesome.

 

[IceIce9]

I was sort of surprised at the medications that were found at the scene. Both very common and boring, used for long term management of health conditions. Neither was a rescue med. Diltiazem is often taken at night (to minimize vessel issues that can occur in the morning) and the levothyroxine is usually taken in the morning on an empty stomach.

I had immediately jumped to the conclusion that there were opiates/benzos/etc involved but the med situation was surprisingly wholesome.

That is what made me think maybe she went for Tylenol if she suffered a sudden, severe, headache. And then she passed out and died in the bathroom.

 

[ClearAhead]

Yes, this.

Furthermore, I will mention that people die every day of undetermined causes. It’s very common. The only reason that this is even a news story is because Gene Hackman is famous and well-known. It is somewhat unusual to have two people die and be undiscovered for a couple of weeks, but it happens.

Yes I think most of us are hoping for very specific and exact details surrounding their deaths but there’s a good chance that won’t be possible for investigators to ever learn. The fact that Gene and Betsy reportedly had a close and loving relationship together for many years, as their lives ended at the same time, neither will be left behind to grieve. That’s not a bad thing. People should be remembered for who they were in life, not how they died and I think the Hackmans will serve as a good example of that.

JMO

 

[Cherwell]

So, if by that he means two dogs (two pairs of ears), I am wondering if the Hackman’s third dog is a newer dog, gotten sometime more recently, that this friend was not familiar with. Could that have been the one in the crate, still a younger pup, and in the crate as part of training?

Possibly, or since he had seen them one of the two dogs had become old and less active and spent more time resting indoors. They had acquired a third, younger dog in the meantime.

 

[BreakingNews]

I was sort of surprised at the medications that were found at the scene. Both very common and boring, used for long term management of health conditions. Neither was a rescue med. Diltiazem is often taken at night (to minimize vessel issues that can occur in the morning) and the levothyroxine is usually taken in the morning on an empty stomach.

I had immediately jumped to the conclusion that there were opiates/benzos/etc involved but the med situation was surprisingly wholesome.

However until toxicology reports are reviewed, we won't really know what was in their systems.

 

[LadyL]

this is a real mystery
do they test for poisons in autopsies or would that be a special request?

 

[slowpoke]

That is what made me think maybe she went for Tylenol if she suffered a sudden, severe, headache. And then she passed out and died in the bathroom.

I had thought that way back, too, when I thought it might be CO poisoning. But the open pill bottle was reported to be a prescription bottle, whereas the sheriff said the Tylenol bottle collected from the home was the over-the-counter type.

The sheriff reporting on the items collected:

https://www.instagram.com/dailymail/reel/DGol1IbPudZ/

 

[IceIce9]

I had thought that way back, too, when I thought it might be CO poisoning. But the open pill bottle was reported to be a prescription bottle, whereas the sheriff said the Tylenol bottle collected from the home was the over-the-counter type.

The sheriff reporting on the items collected:

https://www.instagram.com/dailymail/reel/DGol1IbPudZ/

I thought she might have been trying to get Tylenol

https://people.com/pills-found-gene-hac

The warrant, obtained by PEOPLE, states that the pills found were an unspecified thyroid medication, Tylenol and diltiazem, a medication used to treat high blood pressure.

 

[Cedars]

People should be remembered for who they were in life, not how they died and I think the Hackmans will serve as a good example of that.

JMO

Maybe 'should be' but IMO that won't translate to reality unless a clear explanation can be provided by police.

Examples: Natalie Wood, Kurt Cobain, Princess Diana.

 

[Cardgame]

Would be great to know where the two cellphones were located when they were removed by the police.

If they were nowhere near the bodies then this might add credence to the idea that they were both so incapacitated in some way that neither could dial 911.

If they were nearby, the opposite.

Also, I assume I'm reading too much into this but:

Could they be this kind of phone?

Greenphone - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Cardgame]

I am very interested by the points made above in the thread, which is moving so fast I can't keep up overnight here from UK!

- excellent transcripts by @friendlysleuther

- local youth stealing pharmaceuticals, possible cause of pill scattering (door left open when he realises he has hurt woman and elderly man has fallen?)

- an invisible cause of death, eg smothering, and then the bodies moved post mortem

- dog locked in because of a visitor

I myself am wary of not finding this suspicious simply because these people are over 60.

Yes Gene is elderly, some elderly people can't use a phone.

However Joan Collins age 94 is still a working actress. Vibrant, full of life, on set, learning lines, etc.

Age doesn't necessarily tell us everything we need to know. JMO.

ETA oops posted too soon