Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #2

[STAGNUM]

Well, it’s my opinion that they had ate something they shouldn’t have. Whether it was intentionally, or un-intentionally. Someone could have brought them food, desert, anything really, or simply - they had ate&/ made food that had botulism or something similar.

This scenario doesn’t require an intruder.

It would have had to be something very potent to kill two people in so close a time frame. Normal food poison, how can I put this delicately, both would have been in the toilet and unclothed. Been there for sure, the two of us, same bad food, the symptoms hit me a day later as I was not as dehydrated and slightly better health. These are two people with entirely different metabolisms and stamina. One of them, most likely Betsy, would have called for help. This was not ingested poison IMO. It was airborne and very toxic. That narrows down the possibilities. Note that the police mention nothing about food being about the kitchen or even mention any food in the search warrant.

 

[slowpoke]

There's quite a bit more info here about the dogs.
Sheriff's office makes error about Gene Hackman's dog in initial death report

“USA TODAY learned the dog who perished in the Hackman home was actually Zinna, a 12-year-old reddish Australian Kelpie mixed-breed who had once trained in agility skills to compete at the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. Her body was found in a closed crate in the home, according to Joey Padilla, who transported the surviving dogs to his facility, Santa Fe Tails.”

I mean, maybe the dog kind of looked like a German Shepherd? It said mixed breed, so who knows…and if the dog had been dead for a long time, it may have looked different from it’s alive state.

Here it says “a closed crate”, so I guess we can say the dog was unable to get out and have a chance like the other two dogs for life, like Bear (German shepherd) and Nikita (7-year-old Akita-shepherd mix). Horrible to think.

MOO

 

[STAGNUM]

Not if the dogs or other bugs/ insects ate it…

The other two dogs would have gotten sick/died.

 

[friendlysleuther]

The other two dogs would have gotten sick/died.

From puke?

Even then, there's no evidence that there was or wasn't vomit near them, or if they had been having issues in the bathroom.

It would have had to be something very potent to kill two people in so close a time frame. Normal food poison, how can I put this delicately, both would have been in the toilet and unclothed. Been there for sure, the two of us, same bad food, the symptoms hit me a day later as I was not as dehydrated and slightly better health. These are two people with entirely different metabolisms and stamina. One of them, most likely Betsy, would have called for help. This was not ingested poison IMO. It was airborne and very toxic. That narrows down the possibilities. Note that the police mention nothing about food being about the kitchen or even mention any food in the search warrant.

The search warrant asks for permission to search just about anything,

• "17. In order to ensure that a complete and thorough investigation, investigators may be required to examine the entire, above-mentioned premises, including, but not limited to, the examination of furniture, walls, plumbing equipment, or gas lines in or around the residence."

IMO, Someone could have came over for dinner, brought food by, and then left afterwards. My opinion is that someone deliberately did this, which, would be a lot different than regular food poisoning- especially if the item put inside of the food.. isn't food-related, at all.

Sorry.. Can't buy that it was the maintenance man spraying for pests 2 weeks prior (which has never been mentioned anywhere) ... alas.. We will see!

 

[priyaya]

“USA TODAY learned the dog who perished in the Hackman home was actually Zinna, a 12-year-old reddish Australian Kelpie mixed-breed who had once trained in agility skills to compete at the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. Her body was found in a closed crate in the home, according to Joey Padilla, who transported the surviving dogs to his facility, Santa Fe Tails.”

I mean, maybe the dog kind of looked like a German Shepherd? It said mixed breed, so who knows…and if the dog had been dead for a long time, it may have looked different from it’s alive state.

Here it says “a closed crate”, so I guess we can say the dog was unable to get out and have a chance like the other two dogs for life, like Bear (German shepherd) and Nikita (7-year-old Akita-shepherd mix). Horrible to think.

MOO

Wow some points I thought were interesting in this article.
1. All the dogs were older, so its unclear why one was I'm crate and others weren't at the time
2. One dog was running around with anxiety and had to be trapped while the other was found near Becky.
3. Dog confirmwd locked in crate. Something happened to them quickly

 

[AggieLou]

It would have had to be something very potent to kill two people in so close a time frame. Normal food poison, how can I put this delicately, both would have been in the toilet and unclothed. Been there for sure, the two of us, same bad food, the symptoms hit me a day later as I was not as dehydrated and slightly better health. These are two people with entirely different metabolisms and stamina. One of them, most likely Betsy, would have called for help. This was not ingested poison IMO. It was airborne and very toxic. That narrows down the possibilities. Note that the police mention nothing about food being about the kitchen or even mention any food in the search warrant.

If something ingested anaphylaxis could incapacitate quickly. In that case I would think it was her and he wasn't aware, or couldn't respond fast enough. But what happened to him?

 

[HoneyBunOne]

New theory of mine:

1. Gene and Betsy got up in the morning as usual.
2. Their routine was to let the dogs out first (like most dog owners.)
3. Two dogs were not crated or had already been let out of their crates.
4. Betsy went to the bathroom to let the crated dog out.
5. She had a sudden health episode before she could get the dog out.
6. In falling down, perhaps grabbing the counter, she knocked the heater and the pills onto the floor.
7. Gene didn't realize she had collapsed.
8. The dogs were losing their minds because she was being slow, so Gene decided to let them out himself.
9. Because he needed so much physical assistance, letting the dogs out himself might not have been his normal routine without his wife's help.
10. Something caused him to fall (he could even have been knocked down by a hyper dog.)
11. Because of his frailty, it was a fatal fall, either quick or slow.

I have similar thoughts, but can't quite work out the chicken/egg scenario - which came first, or in this instance, who died first?

I tend to think it was Gene who went first, and Betsy went to the medicine cabinet to get medication. However, I'm not sure it was an instant, drop dead scenario. I think it may have been more a case of him feeling "off", woozy, heart palpitations, chest pain, confusion, slurring words etc. A possibly huge range of things, maybe something as mild as a headache, which sent Betsy to the medicine cabinet for Tylenol or the like. (Tylenol was found on the bench I believe). At which point, she had her own health incident, possibly brought on by the stress, and he then dies as a result on not getting the medication he needed, or maybe because he didn't get medical help. However, my first instinct in this scenario would be to get Gene to sit down somewhere before running off for medication. Honestly, I'm just spit balling ideas at this point because there's so many potential scenarios.

I still believe this happened early in the morning too, partly due to one dog being (still) crated.

We may never learn who died first, it may have to be based on theories when we find out the cause of death for each of them, the dog included.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I think many people always want there to be someone to blame.

I mentioned Cilla elsewhere recently, as there had been discussion at the time as to whether her death was natural causes or accidental. Did the fall cause the stroke, or did she fall because she had suffered a stroke? I can't remember how that ended.

I haven't seen any trustworthy source saying that the crate was definitely closed. Why would it be closed, if the crate was already in a space with a closeable door, be it closet or bathroom? You would just need to shut the door if you wanted to stop the dog from roaming the house.
I can only think of one reason - that the dog had been injured or ill, and was on enforced rest to speed recovery. Poor love.

Many people crate their dogs overnight, which is what I think happened here. For convenience, to stop them roaming, to stop them soiling in the house (if locked in), to give them a safe space, if they have health concerns (doggy dementia/blindness), to stop naughty behaviours (chewing furniture, destroying toys, howling at the moonlight). Maybe this one particular dog needed to be crated for one of these reasons, or maybe they all were, just the other 2 were released before everything went downhill.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

man loves his coffee and boxed Apple Strudel

and to wear his sun glasses on his baseball cap.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

To be fair, these deaths took a few days, but I wonder if they would have been quicker had they eaten more/different mushrooms?

Erin Patterson: how Australia’s alleged mushroom poisoning case unfolded – a timeline

Erin Patterson was charged with three counts of murder after serving a lunch at her home in Leongatha, Victoria. Here’s everything you need to know ahead of Monday’s court hearing

www.theguardian.com

 

[friendlysleuther]

To be fair, these deaths took a few days, but I wonder if they would have been quicker had they eaten more/different mushrooms?

Erin Patterson: how Australia’s alleged mushroom poisoning case unfolded – a timeline

Erin Patterson was charged with three counts of murder after serving a lunch at her home in Leongatha, Victoria. Here’s everything you need to know ahead of Monday’s court hearing

www.theguardian.com

Yes, whether it was something like this or other poison-type substance, it would vary in time that it takes. Some are instant, where as others are a few hours, to 12+ hours, etc etc

 

[ttjo]

From puke?

Even then, there's no evidence that there was or wasn't vomit near them, or if they had been having issues in the bathroom.



The search warrant asks for permission to search just about anything,

• "17. In order to ensure that a complete and thorough investigation, investigators may be required to examine the entire, above-mentioned premises, including, but not limited to, the examination of furniture, walls, plumbing equipment, or gas lines in or around the residence."

IMO, Someone could have came over for dinner, brought food by, and then left afterwards. My opinion is that someone deliberately did this, which, would be a lot different than regular food poisoning- especially if the item put inside of the food.. isn't food-related, at all.

Sorry.. Can't buy that it was the maintenance man spraying for pests 2 weeks prior (which has never been mentioned anywhere) ... alas.. We will see!

It doesn't sound like the maintenance person got in anyway; he would have not gotten past the gate with his vehicle, how would he have gotten in?.
At 1st press conf, Sherrif said a maintenance person there to do pest control contacted security( caretaker) because the owners were not answering.
The caretaker ( who called 911) later said hadn't seen the residents for 2 weeks. ( now I can't remember if that was in the 911 call or in a news article.) Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but my impression was not that they had done pest control 2 weeks ago but rather that the last time the Caretaker saw them was 2 weeks ago. ( MOO) feel free to correct that if you know differently.

 

[NCWatcher]

People have said several times in posts that maybe something happened to Gene & Betsy ran to get his medication (maybe his BP medication.) The spilled pills could support that hypothesis.

But if she had been Gene's "caretaker" for a long time and by all accounts was an excellent one, would she really have thought a calcium channel blocker (diltiazem, for BP but also used to prevent angina or certain arrhythmias like tachycardia) or a thyroid med (if his) or Tylenol would help in an acute crisis? Was she going to force pills down his throat if he was in "distress?" That sort of thinking makes no sense. A cardiac drug used in crises (like nitroglycerin or amyl nitrite, for example) wasn't found so far as we know. Do people think we just don't know all the prescribed drugs that were found? I might understand deciding to hold back info from the public but the released paperwork we've seen (like the search warrant info showing diltiazem, thyroid meds, and Tylenol were seized) would have to have been faked to have left off additional info about other drugs that were found & seized. Why not just not release info vs create a fake document? That I do not understand. Or do people think his pacemaker wasn't for bradycardia (one of the most common reason pacemakers are used) but for tachycardia? Or even AFib? Even so, diltiazem isn't an emergency treatment. Why would Betsy have thought so? Or is there evidence he had AFib and would likely have been on a blood thinner? If so, the diltiazem might not have been his but hers as diltiazem usually is not prescribed if blood thinners are. Maybe if the diltiazem was hers, she did have underlying cardiac disease. But if he had a pacemaker, it seems he'd have been prescribed some sort of cardiac drug too.
MOO

 

[friendlysleuther]

February 26, 1989:"The Day His Father Drove Away"

​

*Select excerpts below., NOT full-text
"I was just 13, but that Saturday morning is still so vivid... I was playing down the street from our house when I saw my father drive by and give me a light wave of his hand. Somehow, I knew that gesture meant he was going away forever."

"(My dad's) leaving came as a shock to me and left an indelible impression on what I felt strength and honesty really are."

At 16, Hackman escaped by lying about his age and joining the Marines.
"My feelings about my father... kept turning into fights and rebelling against authority—as if to say, 'Hey, I've never had a father to tell me what to do, so don't anyone give me orders now.'"

"What I like best about acting is watching people and using what I observe in the roles I play... But I doubt I would have been so sensitive to human behavior if that hadn't happened to me as a child—if I hadn't realized how much one small gesture can mean."

"For me, acting was a form of release, a way of venting my feelings about not having a father."

I recognized that the character (in 'I Never Sang For My Father')—even though he had anger—was what I was feeling in myself."
..
Hackman came to realize, however, that being with his father was more important than airing old resentments.

*Attaching PDF below for easier viewing (higher quality!)
Source- Page 1

 

[friendlysleuther]

HACKMAN/continued

Source

"Coming to terms with my father's weakness made me understand that being strong means being honest-- (..) with your children, (...),the people toy love, honest in your work, and, most of all- honest with yourself."

---

February 26, 1989: "The Day His Father Drove Away"

View attachment 567971​

<snipped>
Source- Page 1

 

[ttjo]

Im not really with the suicide theory. I think if that was the case there would have been some planning and arrangements made for better means. Given that he was 95 I'm sure his passing is something they have thought about. Impulsively taking the heart pills, I'm not with that theory.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

People have said several times in posts that maybe something happened to Gene & Betsy ran to get his medication (maybe his BP medication.) The spilled pills could support that hypothesis.

But if she had been Gene's "caretaker" for a long time and by all accounts was an excellent one, would she really have thought a calcium channel blocker (diltiazem, for BP but also used to prevent angina or certain arrhythmias like tachycardia) or a thyroid med (if his) or Tylenol would help in an acute crisis? Was she going to force pills down his throat if he was in "distress?" That sort of thinking makes no sense. A cardiac drug used in crises (like nitroglycerin or amyl nitrite, for example) wasn't found so far as we know. Do people think we just don't know all the prescribed drugs that were found? I might understand deciding to hold back info from the public but the released paperwork we've seen (like the search warrant info showing diltiazem, thyroid meds, and Tylenol were seized) would have to have been faked to have left off additional info about other drugs that were found & seized. Why not just not release info vs create a fake document? That I do not understand. Or do people think his pacemaker wasn't for bradycardia (one of the most common reason pacemakers are used) but for tachycardia? Or even AFib? Even so, diltiazem isn't an emergency treatment. Why would Betsy have thought so? Or is there evidence he had AFib and would likely have been on a blood thinner? If so, the diltiazem might not have been his but hers as diltiazem usually is not prescribed if blood thinners are. Maybe if the diltiazem was hers, she did have underlying cardiac disease. But if he had a pacemaker, it seems he'd have been prescribed some sort of cardiac drug too.
MOO

My thoughts were that maybe it wasn't a major incident to begin with. It could have been as simple as "Honey, I'm not feeling great. I have a headache. Can you grab me some Tylenol?" At which point she tries to oblige, but has an incident herself. From there, he either died slowly or quickly from whatever was causing the headache, or drawn out due to a fall, dementia related (lack of care for himself), or some other mystery. It will be quite telling to find out the date - if possible- of Betsy's death in relation to Gene's. That may provide some more ideas on what happened and when.

 

[Cardgame]

My thoughts were that maybe it wasn't a major incident to begin with. It could have been as simple as "Honey, I'm not feeling great. I have a headache. Can you grab me some Tylenol?" At which point she tries to oblige, but has an incident herself. From there, he either died slowly or quickly from whatever was causing the headache, or drawn out due to a fall, dementia related (lack of care for himself), or some other mystery. It will be quite telling to find out the date - if possible- of Betsy's death in relation to Gene's. That may provide some more ideas on what happened and when.

It will be very interesting if the toxicology report shows up a medication/chemical/drug/toxin that wasn't found on the property.

Presumably that is something LE are considering as a possibility, since at the moment none of the medications found are either emergency use, nor would be an obvious OD choice.

I also feel suicide is not likely connected to the 'scattered pills'. To me that feels more like a medical event interrupted, or staging by a third party. But I think if you were going to take pills, first of all most of them would be inside your body not scattered around on the counter top, and I don't think you'd leave your 95 year old husband lying on the floor. JMO.

 

[Cardgame]

"Harvey Chalker, a longtime resident told the New York Times: "He wanted to be quiet, he didn't want to be bothered, and I don't blame him." Bud Hamilton, who lived next to them for nearly 20 years, admitted that despite the proximity, he and his wife had only dined with the Hackmans once in two decades."

Gene Hackman's neighbours make huge admission days after star found mummified

Gene Hackman's neighbours were surprised by how little they knew about the actor and his wife, even though they lived nearby for years.

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Kemug]

New theory of mine:

1. Gene and Betsy got up in the morning as usual.
2. Their routine was to let the dogs out first (like most dog owners.)
3. Two dogs were not crated or had already been let out of their crates.
4. Betsy went to the bathroom to let the crated dog out.
5. She had a sudden health episode before she could get the dog out.
6. In falling down, perhaps grabbing the counter, she knocked the heater and the pills onto the floor.
7. Gene didn't realize she had collapsed.
8. The dogs were losing their minds because she was being slow, so Gene decided to let them out himself.
9. Because he needed so much physical assistance, letting the dogs out himself might not have been his normal routine without his wife's help.
10. Something caused him to fall (he could even have been knocked down by a hyper dog.)
11. Because of his frailty, it was a fatal fall, either quick or slow.

I can go along with a lot of your points, BUT not number 6. Knocking a container of pills to the floor will not open their impossible little lids - those childproof ones that you may even need your child to open for you!