Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #3

[branmuffin]

I don't think, at least not in my experience, that a person with advanced ALZ would think to put on sunglasses to go outside.

It indicates to me that he was sane enough to have them handy for up to a week, and to use them at all. That, and staying hydrated. I'm on the side of the fence with those who think she lived beyond 11 feb, or he would have lost his sunglasses by 16-17 feb. Which is when, imo, he fell.

I think dementia is a very strange disease. It's like when a light bulb is ready to go and it starts flickering and then it stops and lights normally, then the next time you turn in on, it does it again and again before it finally dims. I think that's what was happening to my mother.

Before I knew she dementia, my dad took her to the doctor to see what was happening and the doctor gave her these tests to ascertain whether or not she had the symptoms and they were all over the map. She couldn't tell him what year she was born in but could do fairly complex math equations. She could tell time with a dial but not digital. We'd go out for a drive to the store and she knew who my dad was going but then when he came out of the store she thought he was her dad. She could recite a poem yet forget a recipe. She'd see a cow and think it was a big dog. And when I told WS about her not recognizing me initially, every now and then she did. It's a fascinating and terrible thing to witness and I wanted so much to ask her questions while she was in another reality but I didn't want to see that confusion and fear in her eyes. It's very heart breaking to witness and as much as I was angry at my dad for hiding her situation from her family, I could understand his protective nature. So finding Gene with his cane and sunglasses could have been him maybe deciding to take the dogs for a walk and in the brief moment of lucidity remembered that Betsy had gone to the store, and thinking it was the same day. He may have even found her and decided to get help. We'll never know and everyone has to be content with the findings and not create conspiracies or malign family members for their lack of contact. They probably thought Betsy was a stalwart protector of Gene and never in a million years did they envision and end like this.

 

[al66pine]

Pinpointing Time of Incapacitation. Smart Water Meters?

I keep thinking of ways to narrow down when Betsy may have became incapacitated.

It would be interesting to know if the house was serviced by the Sante Fe Water Dept or if there was a private well for the house.

I see two houses on Old Sunset Trail listed on Realtor.com. One says it has a private well and septic tank, the other says it has public water and public sewer.

Smart water meters used by city utility departments can report water usage in real time. Looking at the water meter data it may show a significant drop in water usage at the time when Betsy became incapacitated.

Same goes for the electric meter and electric usage.

JMO

@Joe Friday
Another terrific idea.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1432-Old-Sunset-Trl_Santa-Fe_NM_87501_M18551-44431

This active listing, w house built in 2004 seems to ADJOIN the Hackman property (ICBW), and it shows "Water Source: Public" which I believe is SF City Water.*
Also "MLS Area Minor: 1-SF City Limits NE" suggesting Hackman house is on SF City Water.

My searches on realtor & zillow did not give any other property results on that road.

IF Hackman home is connected to SF City Water, it MAY have a smart meter. Likely imo.
"The Santa Fe Water Division began replacing residential and business water meters with ‘Smart Meters’ in 2016." (Note: Does not say smart meters have been installed for all users.)

Santa Feans Keeping An EyeOnWater – Save Water Santa Fe

savewatersantafe.com

Also info available online for water-users, by subscribing.
"EyeOnWater provides City water customers with easy access to personal water consumption data and the ability to create alerts for possible leaks with no need to wait for notification from the utility or a high-water bill to take action. It allows customers to view and manage their usage by providing water use data in 15-minute, hourly, daily, monthly and yearly intervals."
^ same source.

Hope this helps lead to answers re the smart water meter.

_______________________________________________
* Looking at some info for other prop's further out in Santa Fe County, I see that some listings show "Water: Community" for those props served by smaller water districts and some show "Private Well."

 

[priyaya]

Pinpointing Time of Incapacitation. Smart Water Meters?

@Joe Friday
Another terrific idea.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1432-Old-Sunset-Trl_Santa-Fe_NM_87501_M18551-44431

This active listing, w house built in 2004 seems to ADJOIN the Hackman property (ICBW), and it shows "Water Source: Public" which I believe is SF City Water.*
Also "MLS Area Minor: 1-SF City Limits NE" suggesting Hackman house is on SF City Water.

My searches on realtor & zillow did not give any other property results on that road.

IF Hackman home is connected to SF City Water, it MAY have a smart meter. Likely imo.
"The Santa Fe Water Division began replacing residential and business water meters with ‘Smart Meters’ in 2016." (Note: Does not say smart meters have been installed for all users.)

Santa Feans Keeping An EyeOnWater – Save Water Santa Fe

savewatersantafe.com

Also info available online for water-users, by subscribing.
"EyeOnWater provides City water customers with easy access to personal water consumption data and the ability to create alerts for possible leaks with no need to wait for notification from the utility or a high-water bill to take action. It allows customers to view and manage their usage by providing water use data in 15-minute, hourly, daily, monthly and yearly intervals."
^ same source.

Hope this helps lead to answers re the smart water meter.

_______________________________________________
* Looking at some info for other prop's further out in Santa Fe County, I see that some listings show "Water: Community" for those props served by smaller water districts and some show "Private Well."

What does this prove though. We know gene was at least drinking water. Would they be able to decipher?

 

[CityKid]

Since the pet food store wasn't named, I wondered if LE was basing her activities on debit or credit card data. (Before getting the surveillance videos.) IMO a pet food store would love to be mentioned in this story, since Betsy was a noted dog lover, and I was surprised they weren't. Since the petfood store wasn't mentioned by name I figured they didn't remember her visit and only had transaction records. Again, jmho and guess. All of this is guesswork, and I hope LE is following up as much as they can. They seemed pretty certain that Feb 11 was close to the day Betsy died. Finally, not going to Gruda as usual seems a big tell in the story to me.

Could it be Teca Tu? My bf bought his dog food there when he lived in SF, and it's in DeVargas.

 

[Cherwell]

But this is just shocking that someone going down this fast. I had no idea, and really there should be more awareness and general testing

This is what I find so terrifying, that it first presents with flu-like symptoms so that you would be expecting to recover after a few days discomfort, but then it turns round and kills you.
If it wasn't so rare, I'd imagine the doctors would be overwhelmed by frightened people with bad colds.

 

[Cherwell]

Not exactly. But Dr Gruda is quoted in the USA article, “She was devoted to those dogs,” Robert Gruda, the hospital’s owner, told USA TODAY in an interview. “She was consistent, predictable. We knew something was wrong when she didn’t pick up the food on time.” I consider him a very reliable source, since I know the reputation of his clinic, and I trust since his words are quoted, they are as spoken. He mentions food and Betsy missing a pickup. I put that together with her picking up dogfood on her last afternoon. Granted, they may not be related, but then again, they may. It's a shame we don't have exact information regarding the missed pickup and the date Betsy was expected to get it. Clearly after the 9th, if we can believe other sources who say she was at the Gruda's on that day. -- I hope the Sheriff's office will relay more info in the future, but they may not.

That's the thing. They didn't chase it up until the 17th, so the pick-up might have been arranged for, say, the 13th or 14th. They might have sent a text to say when it was ready, so the phone records may yield something.

 

[al66pine]

Smart Electric Meters?
@Joe Friday and others

Per map, Public Service of New Mexico aka PNM serves all of Santa Fe area (& much more)
Service Area: Detail of Santa Fe-Albuquerque Region - pnmprod - pnm.com

Looks like no Smart Meters yet for PNM customers.

"We continue to evaluate to a more modern electricity delivery system over time as it makes sense for customers. We have not rolled out any smart meter rollouts in New Mexico, but we have installed automation in some of our equipment that has helped us improve our reliability and increase our efficiency. "
Smart Grid - pnmprod - pnm.com (^ undated ^)

 

[Joe Friday]

What does this prove though. We know gene was at least drinking water. Would they be able to decipher?

If the normal average consumption of water was say 100 gallons of water a day up until the 11th and then the daily usage of water went to 5 gallons each day until the 18th, I would say Betsy passed the evening of the 11th.

If the usage slowed down after the 11th because perhaps Betsy was not doing the normal things she would be doing that used water due to not feeling well, and then the usage when down to 5 gallons on one of the days after the 11th and remained relatively constant until the 18th I would say Betsy passed on that day.

I would suspect all water usage stopped on the 18th, looking back at the usage on the 17th and 16th I think would give a pretty good indication to how much water Gene may have been using on a daily basis on his own, since I don't think Betsy was still with us up until then.

People may put their phone down and not turn on their computer to check E-mails when they are sick, but they still need to use the bathroom and flush the toilet.

JMO

 

[al66pine]

Smart Water Meters.

What does this prove though. We know gene was at least drinking water. Would they be able to decipher?

@priyaya Good question.
A smart meter could show usage suggesting GH & BA were (likely) still alive to a certain day.

Conceivably, volume could indicate bathing, showering, clothes washer or dishwasher usage.
If one or both were drinking only tap water and not doing any of ^, volume used would be low.
It's possible one or both drank juices, sodas, other bevvies from fridge.
If so, ultra low usage.

Doubtful that an automatic irrigation system was being operated in mid-late Feb. in Santa Fe.

Unlikely imo that LE investigation could unearth criminal activity. But possible.
We don't know everything LE knows now or will learn later.

In addition to LE continuing to examine data from cells & any other relevant digital devices, seems imo that reviewing water usage records, etc. may help to form stronger basis for concluding there was no CRIMINAL ACTIVITY - either in connection w the deaths or a plain old ordinary breaking & entering burglary which could have occurred during that several day period.
I'd hope LE eliminates those possibilities before closing the file.

Imo @Joe Friday 's ideas are astute.

ETA:
while I was slowly responding w my all-thumbs typing, I see that Joe posted too.
He listed one water use, toilet flushing, which I completely overlooked.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

In regards to the vet supplied dog food vs store bought - They had 3 dogs, who could quite easily be on different diets or eat different things. These dogs were their world, and money was not an issue, so I'd surmise that they lived their best lives ever, with nutritional food to their liking or for their medical needs. Perhaps they had a fussy dog, one with allergies or one with a dietary need. Dog ownership is not what it used to be, these days you can buy dog clothes, dog shoes, or anything else you can think of, including food designed for a specific breed. In this situation, I would not be at all surprised if one dog ate a certain brand from the pet store and another ate a prescription diet food only available from the vet. I don't think the trip to the pet store and not the vet necessarily meant anything sinister, or was indicative of Betsy's health and well being.

 

[Diddian]

If I’m remembering correctly Betsy did stop to pick up dog food from somewhere on the 11th.

However I’d question why she’d have to go back to the vets two days after she picked up the dog to get medications? Why weren’t adequate and appropriate medications prescribed at the time she took the dog home, that makes no sense to me. Unless Zinna’s condition had worsened in the last 2 days.

It’s possible a test was performed or a sample of some kind taken from the dog that required that time elapse or a process occur for a diagnosis and the medication was prescribed a day or two later, after results became known.

ETA: Never mind. I see from the USA Today article that the prescription food and medication were routine for that dog.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

The only reason I harped on the vet dog food vs store-bought was a desire to pin down the timeline even tighter, which is what @Joe Friday is after with the water usage. There are no children or siblings or parents in this case to push for more answers about Betsy's death. If there were, I think they would want as much information as possible. Like pinning down the source of the hantavirus. (From what I've read in other cases, sources can often be located.) There may be more details eventually, and I bet someone writes a book about it and does further investigation. I guess it's possible even that Gene's kids are pushing for more information. I know I would if it were my father and stepmother.

 

[acutename]

The only reason I harped on the vet dog food vs store-bought was a desire to pin down the timeline even tighter, which is what @Joe Friday is after with the water usage. There are no children or siblings or parents in this case to push for more answers about Betsy's death. If there were, I think they would want as much information as possible. Like pinning down the source of the hantavirus. (From what I've read in other cases, sources can often be located.) There may be more details eventually,

If they are going to be around the property and/or sell it, they will need to pin down the source of the virus in any event, IMO.

 

[Warwick7]

I just finished a nice evening with Runaway Jury. GH's acting is spot on! So is Hoffman and Cusack's.
Leaves a person feeling melancholy...

 

[Warwick7]

If they are going to be around the property and/or sell it, they will need to pin down the source of the virus in any event, IMO.

As for pinning it down, the press conference said: "On March 5th, the New Mexico Department of Health staff conducted a risk assessment of the property, including the main residence as well as other structures on the property. This was critically important to address concerns about health risks to first responders as well as to inform any prevention measures needed to protect the family and other individuals entering the property in the future."

"We assessed the risk of exposure in the primary residence as low, similar to other well-maintained houses in New Mexico. We did identify signs of rodent entry in other structures on the property and provided information and resources about reducing the risk of Hantavirus transmission related to those areas."

 

[Warwick7]

If the normal average consumption of water was say 100 gallons of water a day up until the 11th and then the daily usage of water went to 5 gallons each day until the 18th, I would say Betsy passed the evening of the 11th.

If the usage slowed down after the 11th because perhaps Betsy was not doing the normal things she would be doing that used water due to not feeling well, and then the usage when down to 5 gallons on one of the days after the 11th and remained relatively constant until the 18th I would say Betsy passed on that day.

I would suspect all water usage stopped on the 18th, looking back at the usage on the 17th and 16th I think would give a pretty good indication to how much water Gene may have been using on a daily basis on his own, since I don't think Betsy was still with us up until then.

People may put their phone down and not turn on their computer to check E-mails when they are sick, but they still need to use the bathroom and flush the toilet.

JMO

Excellent post!!! And we can venture to guess LE know exactly what day BH was supposed to pick used meds and dog food that she was late for...

 

[Joe Friday]

My searches on realtor & zillow did not give any other property results on that road.

SBM

My mistake. One of the houses I was looking at was on Old Santa Fe Trl, not Old Sunset Trl.

The house listed on Old Sunset Trl has public water. The house on Old Santa Fe Trl has private water well.
So that is a good thing in that maybe all the homes on Old Sunset Trl, including the Hackman's home are serviced by the city water dept and would have smart meters.

 

[Keiri]

us.

I took it that that was the point newyooper was making.

 

[ttjo]

I had to tell my Mum who has dementia that my Sister had died. Her death was sudden and traumatic. She lived a good distance away so my Mum wouldn't have regular visits. I thought about not telling her but the burden of such a secret was too much for me. It also felt like i was deceiving my Mum in the worst way. I told her but was frugal with the cause of death and she reacted as you would expect. Devastated, crying, asking questions. She forgot quite quickly and i will never tell her again. It is too cruel reminding those with dementia of such sad events as they react just the same each time as if first they knew of it. The Alzheimer's society in the UK suggest using diversion techniques if they mention the loved one. For example, i used to have an elderly neighbour with dementia and some nights to give his family a break, i would cook his evening meal. Once he got upset I hadn't made a meal for his wife who had died a few years before. Instead of reminding him she was dead, I started talking about the apple pie she would make me every sunday. He then joined in talking about her baking. Crisis averted. Sorry to digress but it a subject close to my heart.

You're brave, and I love the way you handled the situation with the Apple pie.

 

[acutename]

As for pinning it down, the press conference said: "On March 5th, the New Mexico Department of Health staff conducted a risk assessment of the property, including the main residence as well as other structures on the property. This was critically important to address concerns about health risks to first responders as well as to inform any prevention measures needed to protect the family and other individuals entering the property in the future."

"We assessed the risk of exposure in the primary residence as low, similar to other well-maintained houses in New Mexico. We did identify signs of rodent entry in other structures on the property and provided information and resources about reducing the risk of Hantavirus transmission related to those areas."

yes,the garages