Gun Control Debate #1

[Baciagalupo]

My only opinion on this as a non US person ist that a country that doesn't really have great accesible health care for people with mental illnesses should have way stricter gun laws.

 

[bluedivergirl]

I'm not American, and so I see it from an outsiders viewpoint. I come from a country where there is no way that a member of the public would just be allowed to own a semi-automatic weapon and our last mass shooting was in 1996.

My question was actually WHY does someone in suburban America NEED a semi-automatic/assault weapon? And why don't these people who decide they do need one not store them so that their teenaged son can't get a hold of it, and the ammo to shoot up a school? Control is the issue and no-one in power in the USA dares to try and take your guns away, because hey 2nd amendment trumps the right to send your kids to school without worrying that some disaffected teenager is going to commit a massacre.

Simply put, it doesn't matter if we NEED one. It is our Constitutional right to have one. No one else gets to decide if I NEED one.

We have a Second Amendment because my ancestors fought your ancestors for the right to self-govern. They had just finished an armed insurrection against a very powerful country. The framers of the Constitution were acutely aware of the need for citizens to be armed. It is a very deeply held principal for many Americans.

An assault weapon is an ordinary rifle in different clothing. It functions just the same as Grandpa's rifle. That said, I would consider banning them as they are clearly favored by those bent on harm.

I have a semi-auto weapon. I enjoy bird hunting (and eating). A semi-auto is typically used because birds are fast.

I currently live in Florida. We have trouble with feral swine. They are destructive and dangerous, and they come into suburban yards. Heck, they come into golf courses and tear them up. They are killed with semi-auto rifles, and it is very common. One single shot will not kill them. Just makes 'em mad.

 

[bobcat]

My dad loved skeet shooting! He went once a week for years and years with a group of relatives and friends.

As much as I'm for gun regulations, I also understand guns can be safely used and enjoyed.

I enjoy both skeet and trap shooting. Used to shoot trap weekly when I was in high school. Haven’t done it for many years now but probably will get back into it someday. Many people use semi-automatic “assault” shotguns for these sports. :freakedout:

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Florida lawmakers refuse to debate assault rifles -- but say is dangerous


https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/21/health/florida-legislature-🤬🤬🤬🤬-dangerous-but-not-weapons/index.html

What they will do is carry on about bump stocks which were used once out of 472 mass shootings in history.

I’ll tell ya what’s obscene — their refusal to even consider the gun issue. Moo

 

[rosemadderlake]

I'm just gonna say this. Folks really should try to be more realistic about a child who is going through difficult periods. We were. I never thought mine would be a school shooter (no parent likely EVER does) but, I thought that mine might hurt themself. At that point, we gave up target shooting. We took the firearms out of the home, completely, w/the exception of a couple pistols and they were secured. After ours moved out of the the home, we brought them back in, and enjoy target shooting again. I'm thinking about going deer hunting this fall. I put my kid before my hobby. Period. If I wanted to go hunting I could have. My firearms were easily retrievable, by me, from the undisclosed location.

Wow, this is not only a testament of responsible gun ownership, but of a very loving parent.

--Wonderful.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Blef,

Thanks for answering my questions. From reading between the lines your solution seems to be ban and confiscate all semi-automatic firearms in the United States, correct? At least we know where you stand. This is why there will be no changes to our current gun laws.

iirc, Blef is sharing an opinion from their perspective, living outside of America?

Apologies in advance if I’m misremembering.

 

[Inthedetails]

I enjoy both skeet and trap shooting. Used to shoot trap weekly when I was in high school. Haven’t done it for many years now but probably will get back into it someday. Many people use semi-automatic “assault” shotguns for these sports. :freakedout:

What I know is that gun safety was taken seriously....even among the jokers in my family.

Maybe we start this whole process with something everyone can agree upon - education on gun safety in the home. It goes beyond basics and includes watching out for family members who might have mental health issues.

Would that be something that is both useful and mutually agreed upon??

 

[human]

As an American now retired and living in a Third World Nation with no guns, it is beyond absurd to me. People can have guns, but they are kept at the police department and can be used for hunting or target shooting. There is supposed to be a monthly check to see if everything is at it should be.As I do not have a gun, I can only report what people have told me.

Once upon a time, the US did not allow women, blacks, or native Americans to vote. Blacks were 3/5 of a person.

We managed to amend the Constitution as the absurdity of these notions were challenged and certainly with a tremendous amount of difficulty by those who were attacked for their forward thinking.

I think students of today are looking at a bunch of old people in government and seeing they are irrelevant. Doddering old fools. I am in the age bracket and I feel that as well.

We know better and without a doubt, the new generation is not going to go for the old outdated ideas of the past.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I posted some ideas upthread; reposting below.

For those who want stricter gun regulations, what exactly is it that you want? We already have background checks as a requirement for all firearm purchases. This supposedly prevents those people with a criminal record from obtaining firearms. However, it did not stop Nikolas Cruz, as he had no criminal record. So we somehow need a new law that prevents the purchase of a gun by a person who is thought to be LIKELY to commit a crime in the future? Or a minimum age of 21 to purchase semi-automatic rifles?

Most people who are proponents of stricter gun control say they don’t want to take away the guns people use for hunting. Well, how are those guns specifically defined? Lots of people use semi-automatic rifles and shotguns for hunting. So how do you propose to restrict the rights of people to own the firearms that are sometimes used to commit murder without also restricting the rights of people to use those same guns

My prediction is that the mental health debate regarding gun access will go **exactly nowhere.**

Why?

Because, inevitably, the argument boils down to civil and legal and Constitutional liberties.

Where's the line? Suicidality? Homicidal tendencies? Who would be legally responsible to report? To confiscate?

Many first responders and law enforcement officers who have to witness these slaughters over and over and over again will have PTSD. Some will be suicidal. Some might be hospitalized. Many will seek counseling.

Do we take away their firearms? No, of course not.

Many of the parents and community members and students will be angry, traumatized, suicidal. They'll say things like, "I wanna kill that guy."

Do they forfeit their second amendment rights, too? No.

Now, let's realistically broaden the view. Does anyone who has ever been diagnosed suicidal, is being treated for it and owns a firearm forfeit their second amendment rights to protect themselves and their families? No.

Do our country's servicemen and servicewomen who return home with PTSD, who complete suicide at a higher rate than the national average ... do they forfeit their second amendment rights? No. Of course not.

Heck, well over half of American citizens are diagnosed with clinical depression, and/or PTSD, and/or severe mental illness, and/or suicidality at some point in their lives. With proper treatment (and very often without it) probably 99 percent don't kill anyone, except maybe themselves — most often with a firearm.

FIRST: Even IF we could work a loophole into HIPPA, logically, it would essentially require what NOBODY wants, which is the confiscation of weapons.

SECOND: In order for us to keep guns out of the hands of potentially violent, severely mentally ill people, there will be more regulations. Yet too many believe more laws will change nothing.

So let's step away from that argument. It's not going to happen.

It's a diversion. And it restigmatizes mental illness. It's a regressive, damaging, fruitless discussion.

WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS.

We want to keep powerful weapons out of the hands of baddies. We all agree on that. Here are a few ideas:

• Closing the loopholes we have.

• Consistently enforcing the laws we have.

• Longer waiting periods

• Banning bump stocks

• More stringent background checks

• Requiring our guns to be insured

• Changing laws that remove all legal liability from gun owners who do not safely store their weapons.

• Up to half a million guns are stolen every year in this country — from legal, otherwise law-abiding citizens. That fuels the black market. (It helps baddies get guns.)

• Requiring gun owners to report when their guns are stolen.

• Periodic relicensing and retraining

NONE, BUT NONE, REQUIRE WHOLESALE CONFISCATION, BANNING OF GUNS OR INHIBIT THE RIGHT WE ALL HAVE AS LAW-ABIDING AMERICANS TO DEFEND OUR LIBERTY AND PROPERTY.

Yeah?

Actions speak louder than words, and we have to do SOMETHING.

Because mass shootings aren’t inevitable, CHANGE is.

 

[Inthedetails]

As an American now retired and living in a Third World Nation with no guns, it is beyond absurd to me. People can have guns, but they are kept at the police department and can be used for hunting or target shooting. There is supposed to be a monthly check to see if everything is at it should be.As I do not have a gun, I can only report what people have told me.

Once upon a time, the US did not allow women, blacks, or native Americans to vote. Blacks were 3/5 of a person.

We managed to amend the Constitution as the absurdity of these notions were challenged and certainly with a tremendous amount of difficulty by those who were attacked for their forward thinking.

I think students of today are looking at a bunch of old people in government and seeing they are irrelevant. Doddering old fools. I am in the age bracket and I feel that as well.

We know better and without a doubt, the new generation is not going to go for the old outdated ideas of the past.

I agree completely, but also point out that those changes did not come quickly. I applaud the students and look forward to progress they make.

However, I think we can make progress in increments....until we get to time when we look back and say, "Can you believe that kids used to be able to shoot up school with guns they bought legally?!"

I am really thinking that an education process about gun safety in the home might be a reasonable first step. Make people REALLY REALLY aware of people around them (teens, in particular) who shouldn't have any access to family guns.

It's a step. It makes sense. It's easy. It appeals across all divisions on this topic (I would hope!).

jmo

 

[human]

What I know is that gun safety was taken seriously....even among the jokers in my family.

Maybe we start this whole process with something everyone can agree upon - education on gun safety in the home. It goes beyond basics and includes watching out for family members who might have mental health issues.

Would that be something that is both useful and mutually agreed upon??

Remember how some mothers say the child was a good boy as he is sitting in the electric chair?

Parents often are the ones who are in denial about how disturbed their child may be. In school, one sees that as it is always some other child’s fault, Often children learn the blame game at home.

And how many parents are willing to think of their child as a killer? Lanza’s mother seemed to blame others for why her child was the way he was.

Cruz’s mother wanted to give him away. Can you imagine how that makes a child feel? Don’t worry. Children know more than you realize.

One of the signs of mass killers is domestic violence. Either doing it (as Cruz did) or witnessing it.

There is a good start on domestic violence, but look at the recent revelation of Porter at the White House. Even at the highest levels this exists.

 

[Blef]

Simply put, it doesn't matter if we NEED one. It is our Constitutional right to have one. No one else gets to decide if I NEED one.

We have a Second Amendment because my ancestors fought your ancestors for the right to self-govern. They had just finished an armed insurrection against a very powerful country. The framers of the Constitution were acutely aware of the need for citizens to be armed. It is a very deeply held principal for many Americans.

An assault weapon is an ordinary rifle in different clothing. It functions just the same as Grandpa's rifle. That said, I would consider banning them as they are clearly favored by those bent on harm.

I have a semi-auto weapon. I enjoy bird hunting (and eating). A semi-auto is typically used because birds are fast.

I currently live in Florida. We have trouble with feral swine. They are destructive and dangerous, and they come into suburban yards. Heck, they come into golf courses and tear them up. They are killed with semi-auto rifles, and it is very common. One single shot will not kill them. Just makes 'em mad.

I get that its a constitutional right. However why does your constitutional right to own a killing machine supersede another person's right to live?

 

[human]

I agree completely, but also point out that those changes did not come quickly. I applaud the students and look forward to progress they make.

However, I think we can make progress in increments....until we get to time when we look back and say, "Can you believe that kids used to be able to shoot up school with guns they bought legally?!"

I am really thinking that an education process about gun safety in the home might be a reasonable first step. Make people REALLY REALLY aware of people around them (teens, in particular) who shouldn't have any access to family guns.

It's a step. It makes sense. It's easy. It appeals across all divisions on this topic (I would hope!).

jmo

It is obvious that some people think owning a gun is a right and solving problems with guns is the correct response.

When my grandchildren go to a home to visit, my children ask the parents where they store their guns. You may be responsible, but obviously with young friends killing their young friends accidentally, guns are not taken seriously by some people

 

[Blef]

iirc, Blef is sharing an opinion from their perspective, living outside of America?

Apologies in advance if I’m misremembering.

No that is exactly right. I come from the UK where we don't carry guns.

I now live in Canada where some friends of mine grew up hunting and live around guns. I prefer to live in system where guns are tightly regulated, and gun crime is not a common theme. ​

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Simply put, it doesn't matter if we NEED one. It is our Constitutional right to have one. No one else gets to decide if I NEED one.

We have a Second Amendment because my ancestors fought your ancestors for the right to self-govern. They had just finished an armed insurrection against a very powerful country. The framers of the Constitution were acutely aware of the need for citizens to be armed. It is a very deeply held principal for many Americans.

An assault weapon is an ordinary rifle in different clothing. It functions just the same as Grandpa's rifle. That said, I would consider banning them as they are clearly favored by those bent on harm.

I have a semi-auto weapon. I enjoy bird hunting (and eating). A semi-auto is typically used because birds are fast.

I currently live in Florida. We have trouble with feral swine. They are destructive and dangerous, and they come into suburban yards. Heck, they come into golf courses and tear them up. They are killed with semi-auto rifles, and it is very common. One single shot will not kill them. Just makes 'em mad.

I agree with you. SCOTUS has determined that individuals have a right to lawfully own and use firearms.

At the same time, the second amendment doesn’t grant the unlimited right to own and use firearms, nor does it prohibit states or the federal government from regulating that right. Notable examples would be after the Kennedy assassination, after the Luby’s massacre in the ‘80s, and the semi-automatic rifle ban in the ‘00s.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/United_States_of_America_1992

 

[rsd1200]

I would start out by defining an assault rifle as any center fire rifle
with an easily swapped external magazine holding more than 10 rounds or that can be used with such a magazine.

Home invasions are actually rare in the United States. There are cases where bad guys bust into a home intent on murder and mayhem. Most of these turn out to be drug gangs trying to shut down a competitor.

The vast majority of residential burglaries happen during the day when homes are empty because everyone is at work or school. Having nosy neighbors that are at home during the day really helps. So does a dog that will raise a ruckus when a stranger tries to break in. Burglaries of occupied homes are rare, despite the impression given by most burglar alarm ads.

If you do feel that a firearm is needed, an AR-15 or similar weapon is probably a bad choice. Rounds fired from this rifle can go right through the wall of a typical frame house and into your neighbors home. The blast from a shotgun will do serious damage to an invader with less risk to the folks next door. Also, real life bad guys don't act like the zombie invaders in Hollywood movies that keep coming as the macho blows them away with gunfire.

While I agree with some of your post, I disagree with burglaries and home invasions. Our home invasions were at night. We've had thieves steal off the farm, during the day, but the home invasions were at night. I also mentioned, up thread, about staying at a hotel, and an attempt was made to break in on us. That too was at night, nearing midnight. Dad had to his pistol by the door to get them to stop trying to get inside. They heard that and beat feet. The other two, we walked in on them, in our home. Thankfully they ran out, and jumped through the back window, that they'd pried open. We'd always put a stick behind our sliding door. You could see the crowbar marks where they'd tried to get in that way and given up, and gone in through the back window afterwards. So that's three, for me, at night.

 

[Blef]

Isn't the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" part of the Declaration of Independence? So does this mean that the 2nd amendment supersedes the "life" part of the Declaration of Independence?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

No that is exactly right. I come from the UK where we don't carry guns.

I now live in Canada where some friends of mine grew up hunting and live around guns. I prefer to live in system where guns are tightly regulated, and gun crime is not a common theme. ​

Thank you for setting me straight, Blef. ❤️

 

[Blef]

And just to put the record straight, I am not arguing for gun prohibition. I am arguing for extremely tight gun control, which due to organisations like the NRA, will never ever happen, as people equate gun control with gun prohibition. And no-one yet has given me any valid reason why someone in suburban America needs an assault (or whatever you wish to call it) weapon.

 

[bobcat]

Isn't the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" part of the Declaration of Independence? So does this mean that the 2nd amendment supersedes the "life" part of the Declaration of Independence?

No, because while the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to possess firearms, it doesn’t make it legal to kill people with those firearms. That’s what people seem to forget- murder is already against the law.