Gun Control Debate #2

[human]

I disagree. There are many disparities in demographics with the US culture (for many reasons) that are percentage-wise far different than other countries. We are experiencing sociological “Social Strain”. We have affluenza living around the corner from homeless encampments....all throughout our country with large extremes in those variables. You know, the “haves” and the “have nots” at alarmingly unusual numbers at both sides of the spectrum.

Our history from the Revolution against Great Britain, our interaction with Native Americans (horrific), our bloody Civil War and all of our WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam Nam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan campaigns, etc leave us with a certain **special** take on violence. Unique to our culture. “Here we are to save the day” propaganda. Captain America stuff.

And let’s not forget that we are largely a 2-income society with the latchkey-kid syndrome as an after effect. TV, YouTube, social media, X-Box are literally “teaching” our kids. Youngsters have highly influential minds. The internet has been a game changer.

Families no longer live together on the farm or the same block to keep an eye on “squirrelly Johnny”, iykwim.

Dont bother with the retorts because I’ve seen many changes personally here in the US during these decades. Just throwing my observations out there....

Well, I have to bother with the retorts. I live in a Third World country and kids have access to the same crap because kids have the internet. Where I live there are villages and every village has a town hall where there is internet. The code is given out for free.

I have a neighbor who is more affluent. He would be poverty in the US but because his home is a family home, he can afford Wifi. He has given the code to the neighbors. The music they play often is US with horrendous words.

People do not get married and children are often raised by relatives, There are a few homeless that sleep outside. They get money but they go to the mayor to get a daily amount or they would spend the monthly amount in one day. They can only get their money if they go to the free doctor to ascertain that they take their meds , once a month. Everyone is used to them but tourists do freak out.

There are rich people here. Bilionaires come here on vacation but we only see their minions,

Australia is very similar to the US. I do not know if they have homeless but they have medical care, unlike the US. Sydney is reportedly the most expensive city in the world. Australia has tremendous social problems.

England has tremendous wealth and poverty. They have people from every corner of earth, but I am not sure how Brexit will affect that.

Australia has a horrible race problem as well as the issues with immigrants who are escaping the Middle East. And of course, England conquered every place on earth.

Hawaii has an increidble homeless population. Issues with the Native Hawaiians And of course the extremes of wealth and poverty. They do have strong gun laws and have had a tremendous health system because of the example of the pineapple plantations.

It is funny , though, the misconceptions here about the US. A man was injured in an accident here. The mother wanted to bring him to the US for rehab. Here there is national health care but to get intense care, it would require a trip to a further away country. All paid for, of course.

The mother had no,idea that health care in the US was not something people in the US have.

 

[Blef]

Well, I have to bother with the retorts. I live in a Third World country and kids have access to the same crap because kids have the internet. Where I live there are villages and every village has a town hall where there is internet. The code is given out for free.

I have a neighbor who is more affluent. He would be poverty in the US but because his home is a family home, he can afford Wifi. He has given the code to the neighbors. The music they play often is US with horrendous words.

People do not get married and children are often raised by relatives, There are a few homeless that sleep outside. They get money but they go to the mayor to get a daily amount or they would spend the monthly amount in one day. They can only get their money if they go to the free doctor to ascertain that they take their meds , once a month. Everyone is used to them but tourists do freak out.

There are rich people here. Bilionaires come here on vacation but we only see their minions,

Australia is very similar to the US. I do not know if they have homeless but they have medical care, unlike the US. Sydney is reportedly the most expensive city in the world. Australia has tremendous social problems.

England has tremendous wealth and poverty. They have people from every corner of earth, but I am not sure how Brexit will affect that.

Australia has a horrible race problem as well as the issues with immigrants who are escaping the Middle East. And of course, England conquered every place on earth.

Hawaii has an increidble homeless population. Issues with the Native Hawaiians And of course the extremes of wealth and poverty. They do have strong gun laws and have had a tremendous health system because of the example of the pineapple plantations.

It is funny , though, the misconceptions here about the US. A man was injured in an accident here. The mother wanted to bring him to the US for rehab. Here there is national health care but to get intense care, it would require a trip to a further away country. All paid for, of course.

The mother had no,idea that health care in the US was not something people in the US have.

I can confirm this being born and bred in Britain. We have extreme poverty, we have wealth. We have people from all over the world living on that tiny island. We have problems with drugs and violence. We have terrorism on a much bigger scale than the US sees. Yet what we don't have is mass shootings. Why? Because we don't have access to firearms. Sure some "bad guys" get their hands on guns, but it is such a tiny problem that we don't walk down the streets fearing we are going to be shot. We don't need guns in our homes for fear of being shot in our beds. Our everyday police aren't even armed with guns. But the socio-economic problems that have been described above exist. The school shootings don't.

 

[Blef]

Interesting responses from actual vets to Trump's suggestion to arm teachers

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/worl...eterans-had-to-say/ar-BBJuesq?ocid=spartanntp

 

[human]

These are also issues in places such as Canada, the UK and Australia. Disaffected young people exist there too, in much the same situations. However teenagers in those countries do not have access to guns and ammo. Hence they don't go shooting up schools

I am in disbelief. Every country on earth has access to the same stuff and even worse. I do not want to speak negatively as to where I live, but the problems are immense.

Many of us are thankful guns are not available.

 

[MaryG12]

I disagree. There are many disparities in demographics with the US culture (for many reasons) that are percentage-wise far different than other countries. We are experiencing sociological “Social Strain”. We have affluenza living around the corner from homeless encampments....all throughout our country with large extremes in those variables. You know, the “haves” and the “have nots” at alarmingly unusual numbers at both sides of the spectrum.

Our history from the Revolution against Great Britain, our interaction with Native Americans (horrific), our bloody Civil War and all of our WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam Nam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan campaigns, etc leave us with a certain **special** take on violence. Unique to our culture. “Here we are to save the day” propaganda. Captain America stuff.

And let’s not forget that we are largely a 2-income society with the latchkey-kid syndrome as an after effect. TV, YouTube, social media, X-Box are literally “teaching” our kids. Youngsters have highly influential minds. The internet has been a game changer.

Families no longer live together on the farm or the same block to keep an eye on “squirrelly Johnny”, iykwim.

Dont bother with the retorts because I’ve seen many changes personally here in the US during these decades. Just throwing my observations out there....

BBM

It's like that here in Sarasota.

There is a LOT of money in this city not to mention famous people: Dickey Betts and his wife, Jerry Springer, Joe Perry (Aerosmith), Brian Johnson (AC/DC), Randy Savage (wrestler), actress Jane Lynch, Dick Vitale, many others. Stephen King has a house on Casey Key in Nokomis just south of us. There are a LOT of mansions on that key. DH and I have driven through Casey Key a few times.

Sarasota also has a very high homeless population, usually downtown although they are in other parts of the city like the corner of Tamiami Trail (41) and Stickney Point - the road that leads to one of the nation's most popular beach, Siesta Key beach.

Yet the city still suffers from trash-strewn roadsides on the mainland (not so much on the keys where most of the $$ is), empty storefronts, etc.

To continue, I agree with the 2-incomes, latchkey kids (which started in the 1970's), the breakdown of the nuclear family, lack of father figures (too many sperm donors as DH would say), the public educational system going downhill..today at work I was taking about that last one with some colleagues, one of who wants to pull his kids from the Manatee school system and have them homeschooled. I don't blame him, he wants his three little ones to enjoy reading and learning, instead of their school hours being filled with tests, tests, and more tests.

Yeah, I cannot believe how much our society has changed since I was a kid back in the 1970's and I just turned 50 last November...

 

[human]

it is just my opinion, but I do feel like both Cruz and the students were let down in order to keep the statistics looking good. Special needs students do have special circumstances in schools, but the laws do not change for them. Unless of course they are found by a court of law to not be responsible. It sounds harsh, but he needed to be arrested and charged with a felony. He committed a lot of things that are felonies. Yes, he might of had to spend some time in a juvenile detention center, but now at a minimal he is probably going to be spending the rest of his life in prison, and seventeen people dead.
If the system had worked like it is suppose to he would be a felon, and not be able to legally buy his guns.

Actually, by law, special needs students do have different rules, PL 94-142

 

[simba16]

CNN is reporting that several more Broward County deputies stayed outside school while students, teachers were being slaughtered inside. And Trump believes armed teachers are the answer?

 

[MaryG12]

Sorry but it would take me too long after my 10 hour workday to post empirical research on all of my perceived causal factors mentioned. Anyway, I’m living it daily so no link necessary. I’m saying that the US has a unique culture, history, demographics, economics and that simply guns aren’t the only reason for what is currently going on.

Recently near me, we had a young man attack random strangers by eating their faces. No gun involved.....

Yes I remember that - Miami it was I believe?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/flakka-what-is-it-florida-face-eating-attack-zombie-drug-austin-harrouff-a7195871.html

Flakka turns its users into zombies apparently.

 

[Blef]

Yes I remember that - Miami it was I believe?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/flakka-what-is-it-florida-face-eating-attack-zombie-drug-austin-harrouff-a7195871.html

Flakka turns its users into zombies apparently.

A similar thing happened in Manitoba on a bus. But to be honest that has nothing to do with gun control, which is what we are discussing.

 

[bears10]

Interesting but some were a stretch on the author’s part. I think it still would be good to find out what leads to the rampage killings by those who do not have the issues of poverty and race that are so often identified by people as being problematic. Dylan Roof came from a wealthy background as well.

Why are so many privileged having these kind of issues since poverty and race have been identified as issues in other crimes

Which points were a stretch?

Imo mental illness is what leads to rampage killings. No one is exempt from mental illness, regardless of their race, income, or sex. Anyone can suffer from mental illness, not just rich white males.

I can’t find any source that dylan roofs parents are wealthy. If anything, they appear middle class to me. I can go thru a list of mass shooters that aren’t wealthy, or white for that matter, but it wouldn’t fit the narrative of this being a rich white boy problem.

 

[human]

Which points were a stretch?

Imo mental illness is what leads to rampage killings. No one is exempt from mental illness, regardless of their race, income, or sex. Anyone can suffer from mental illness, not just rich white males.

I can’t find any source that dylan roofs parents are wealthy. If anything, they appear middle class to me. I can go thru a list of mass shooters that aren’t wealthy, or white for that matter, but it wouldn’t fit the narrative of this being a rich white boy problem.

The stretch of him claiming some may not be white. Dylan Roof’s grandfather was a big wig. Judge, maybe? I forget. His father was in construction, I believe.

The article listed does id shooters, many of whom were rich white boys

 

[bears10]

The stretch of him claiming some may not be white. Dylan Roof’s grandfather was a big wig. Judge, maybe? I forget. His father was in construction, I believe.

The article listed does id shooters, many of whom were rich white boys

And my grandparents were dirt poor. What does that have to do with my parents? And FWIW, construction isn’t necessarily lucrative. I have been in different areas of the construction industry since I started working, and have seen successful contractors, but I’ve seen many more struggling contractors. From what I read and saw of his family and home, they don’t appear to be wealthy to me. JMO

The article was from 2012. If I had the energy, I’d go thru the updated list of shooters one by one, but frankly no one cares bc it doesn’t fit the narrative, and I am too exhausted to waste my energy on what would be a fruitless task.

ETA - he suggested two people may not be white and said multiple times that it was speculation.

 

[ohreally]

It is difficult to expel a kid with special needs. Rather , they moved him to another setting, Expulsion involves court. We do not know what his offenses at school were, do we?

I only speak about this as this is a problem around the US. Kids with severe needs who do not get help,

Because of privacy laws, the public has no clue as to what kids are like. The interventions they need but are not getting

I think we are talking about two different issues. I am not talking about administration expelling him. I am talking about law enforcement at the school and home not arresting him. Special needs is not a consideration when making an arrest. That is the decision of the courts. It does sound harsh, but again if he would of been arrested and charged with the felonies (from what all he did according to media reports) he would not been legally allowed to buy his guns.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

From your link -

Records show the behaviors continued at Marjory Stoneman Douglas, which he attended in 2016 and 2017 before being transferred, with discipline being dispensed for fighting, profanity, and an “assault.” It appears the Jan. 19, 2017 assault resulted in a referral for a “threat assessment.” A few months later, Cruz landed at an Off Campus Learning Center, where he remained for only about five months.

Oh my goodness. Sorry, I was mistaken.

Thanks for setting me straight, Tillicum! ❤️

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

From your link: "Colt started selling the semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle as the Colt AR-15 in 1964."

It's been available for civilian purchase for 54 years.

Respectfully, thats untrue. Let’s be intellectually and factually honest, please.

Semiauto rifles were banned for two decades, from 94-04. I’m guessing you already know that, but just in case, I’ve included some links below.

They didn’t exist for civilian use until 54 years ago, and the Assault Weapons Ban was in effect 20 of those 54 years. That’s not “always,” as ya asserted in your earlier post.

And some 50-somethings might be a little offended when 54 years is conflated with “always” or “forever.” Lol. ❤️ [emoji6]

Links:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ed-assault-weapons-in-1994-and-why-it-worked/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

67% of Americans support assault weapons ban
https://www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch/poll-67-support-assault-weapons-ban-1166076483662

Florida GOP congressman says he would support an assault weapons ban
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...an-says-he-would-support-assault-weapons-ban/

 

[ohreally]

Actually, by law, special needs students do have different rules, PL 94-142

That is a law for education. Could you point out to me where specifically in this law it states that law enforcement is suppose to give special consideration in arresting a special needs student. That because a person is special needs they should not be arrested for threatening, fighting or holding a gun to members of thier families head.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Thank you for sharing your perspective, human. It’s an eye-opener.

Well, I have to bother with the retorts. I live in a Third World country and kids have access to the same crap because kids have the internet. Where I live there are villages and every village has a town hall where there is internet. The code is given out for free.

I have a neighbor who is more affluent. He would be poverty in the US but because his home is a family home, he can afford Wifi. He has given the code to the neighbors. The music they play often is US with horrendous words.

People do not get married and children are often raised by relatives, There are a few homeless that sleep outside. They get money but they go to the mayor to get a daily amount or they would spend the monthly amount in one day. They can only get their money if they go to the free doctor to ascertain that they take their meds , once a month. Everyone is used to them but tourists do freak out.

There are rich people here. Bilionaires come here on vacation but we only see their minions,

Australia is very similar to the US. I do not know if they have homeless but they have medical care, unlike the US. Sydney is reportedly the most expensive city in the world. Australia has tremendous social problems.

England has tremendous wealth and poverty. They have people from every corner of earth, but I am not sure how Brexit will affect that.

Australia has a horrible race problem as well as the issues with immigrants who are escaping the Middle East. And of course, England conquered every place on earth.

Hawaii has an increidble homeless population. Issues with the Native Hawaiians And of course the extremes of wealth and poverty. They do have strong gun laws and have had a tremendous health system because of the example of the pineapple plantations.

It is funny , though, the misconceptions here about the US. A man was injured in an accident here. The mother wanted to bring him to the US for rehab. Here there is national health care but to get intense care, it would require a trip to a further away country. All paid for, of course.

The mother had no,idea that health care in the US was not something people in the US have.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

“Now look at the blue points, which show Gini coefficients after considering tax and transfer spending, i.e., redistribution.

The United States does much, much worse. The only developed country with more unequal income distribution is Mexico. (Chile also is more unequal, though it’s not usually categorized as an advanced/developed economy.)”

Snippet above from the Washington Post, August 11, 2017 “Income Inequality”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Thank you for this info, Spellz! Adding to your post ...

What seems so sad to me is just counting the dead. Dozens were wounded or killed with high-power gun/ammo in that high school. More than 100 at Pulse nightclub. Eight hundred in Vegas.

The numbers are breathtaking. These are unmitigated bloodbaths, imo. Slaughters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_Douglas_High_School_shooting

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
America's gun culture in 10 charts


The attack at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School is the sixth school shooting incident this year so far that has either wounded or killed students.
Last year, an attack on a concert in Las Vegas left 58 dead, the worst mass shooting in the US, and again raised questions about gun ownership and whether there should be tougher controls.

 

[kittythehare]

The states — New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Rhode Island, all of which have among the lowest rates of gun deaths per capita in the country — will directly share information like the names of people who have been deemed mentally unfit to own a gun, people who have a domestic violence restraining order against them and people who have a warrant out for their arrest. The states will also share details about how guns are trafficked and sold within their borders and designate universities that can collaborate on regional gun violence research, according to a memorandum of understanding signed by the states’ governors, all Democrats.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/...un-safety-data.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur