ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

[ILOKAL]

I think it's the north end of the reservoir where it is dammed, so the creek flows out of the reservoir here (and down towards the lower campground).

Thanks Desert-Blue.

 

[ILOKAL]

I posted the link some pages back. Yes, it is really JM. IMO.

It is a closed group - you need to join the group to read it. And we are not allowed to discuss it on here.

I am so confused. Are we able to discuss anything from that public/open FB page? BTW, that one is confusing too as it mostly seems to sit dormant which to me seems strange.

 

[bessie]

I am so confused. Are we able to discuss anything from that public/open FB page? BTW, that one is confusing too as it mostly seems to sit dormant which to me seems strange.

In short, no. Whatever you read there, should remain there. If anything changes, I'll post it here. With the history of SM disasters in this case, I'm loathe to give any leeway.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291123

 

[Cardinal47]

I always wonder who is putting up these FB pages? The one with the links above is now gone. I find it kind of strange they come and go like that.

Not knowing who starts them I have to wonder how true any of the content is on them.

I can see why Bessie doesn't want them discussed. Heck we don't know who is posting. They could be posting under any name they chose.

MOO

 

[lesajo]

Been following along in this case from the start. Observing all these great discussions. I hope there is some resolution to what happened to little Deorr, he has captured many hearts, sad hearts.
So much turmoil and confusion. Difficult to grasp a child disappearing with out a trace.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I always wonder who is putting up these FB pages? The one with the links above is now gone. I find it kind of strange they come and go like that.

Not knowing who starts them I have to wonder how true any of the content is on them.

I can see why Bessie doesn't want them discussed. Heck we don't know who is posting. They could be posting under any name they chose.

MOO

Agreed. This is weird.

 

[ILOKAL]

This little boy, David Gonzales, 9 at the time, disappeared under very much the same circumstances as little DeOrr. There was a massive search. Search efforts failed and he was not found. Then, a year later, his skull and some bones were found. This article provides some information that I had not previously read about, regarding why a mountain lion (suspected to have killed the child) was not tracked by the dogs. A must read.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/01/local/me-bones1

 

[Rayemonde]

This little boy, David Gonzales, 9 at the time, disappeared under very much the same circumstances as little DeOrr. There was a massive search. Search efforts failed and he was not found. Then, a year later, his skull and some bones were found. This article provides some information that I had not previously read about, regarding why a mountain lion (suspected to have killed the child) was not tracked by the dogs. A must read.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/01/local/me-bones1

On the other hand:

A lion attack was suspected because a mountain lion was seen in the area about the time the boy disappeared.

"Hounds were able to track lion scent through the camp ... and there could have been anywhere from two to five (lions) in a region like that," Updike said.

But after viewing the skeletal remains, Updike said he was ready to abandon the theory.

"I didn't see any evidence today that amounts to a smoking tooth hole," he said. "The animal typically jumps on the prey's back and holds on (with its claws) while biting at the base of the skull. These are full-strength bites that typically leave marks or punctures through the skull or crush part of the vertebrae."

The boy's bones showed some less extensive bite marks, he said, that appear to have occurred during scavenging, possibly by a coyote.

http://www.mountainlion.org/newsstory.asp?news_id=258

 

[Rayemonde]

David's remains were found in a ravine about a mile from where he disappeared. The area was searched and authorities said search dogs even had a few hits in the area, but nothing concrete. Wildlife and search experts have said the dogs may have gotten mixed signals if a mountain lion had taken David. The scents of the lion and the boy would mix, and track dogs are trained not to follow the scent of the predator to avoid the danger. It's possible David was there all along. It's possible he wasn't.

http://www.mountain-news.com/news/localnews/article_b4f9785c-1433-542d-9fa5-47bc4011b405.html

Wait, I just found this. Is this true? Is it true of the specific dogs used to search for DeOrr? In another article it said that the dogs found and "treed" a mountain lion whilst searching for David - how can that be if they are trained to ignore mountain lion scent?

If a tracking dog would ignore a mountain lion scent, what about a cadaver dog? The cadaver dogs were distracted by the cremains for 3 days I think? So say DeOrr's remains were missed for 3 days. Searching stopped at night. Mountain lions cover their prey up and come back to it. Three days and nights is plenty of time for remains to be dispersed by animals or moved outside of the search area.

During the search, a crew of animal trackers brought in by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and San Bernardino County Animal Control reported that search dogs treed a mountain lion in the days after the boy disappeared. A mountain lion was also seen crossing a nearby road five days after David vanished, Patterson said.

Wildlife biologists have told sheriff's officials that mountain lions typically cover their dead prey in leaves and branches to hide it from other predators, Patterson said.

Last year's search drew 100 to 250 official and volunteer searchers each day. Patterson said the animal-behavior experts said a mountain lion's consumption of its prey can eliminate scents that search dogs can locate.

"We were told the big cats can drag their prey one to three miles away, that they like to take it to a secluded area," he said. "There had to be a reason he wasn't being seen."

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/01/local/me-bones1

 

[ILOKAL]

http://www.mountain-news.com/news/localnews/article_b4f9785c-1433-542d-9fa5-47bc4011b405.html

Wait, I just found this. Is this true? Is it true of the specific dogs used to search for DeOrr? In another article it said that the dogs found and "treed" a mountain lion whilst searching for David - how can that be if they are trained to ignore mountain lion scent?

If a tracking dog would ignore a mountain lion scent, what about a cadaver dog? The cadaver dogs were distracted by the cremains for 3 days I think? So say DeOrr's remains were missed for 3 days. Searching stopped at night. Mountain lions cover their prey up and come back to it. Three days and nights is plenty of time for remains to be dispersed by animals or moved outside of the search area.

Didn't the dog tree a mountain lion five days after David disappeared?

EDA: actually, the article said animal tracking dogs treed a lion "days" after David disappeared and one crossed a nearby road five days after his disappearance.

 

[ILOKAL]

http://www.mountain-news.com/news/localnews/article_b4f9785c-1433-542d-9fa5-47bc4011b405.html

Wait, I just found this. Is this true? Is it true of the specific dogs used to search for DeOrr? In another article it said that the dogs found and "treed" a mountain lion whilst searching for David - how can that be if they are trained to ignore mountain lion scent?

If a tracking dog would ignore a mountain lion scent, what about a cadaver dog? The cadaver dogs were distracted by the cremains for 3 days I think? So say DeOrr's remains were missed for 3 days. Searching stopped at night. Mountain lions cover their prey up and come back to it. Three days and nights is plenty of time for remains to be dispersed by animals or moved outside of the search area.


http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/01/local/me-bones1

Might that only be the case of mixed scents? The article I posted said if a child had been consumed then "his" scent could not have been followed. I had never heard that before, but it makes sense.

 

[ILOKAL]

On the other hand:


http://www.mountainlion.org/newsstory.asp?news_id=258

A ML often attacks from the side and grabs the prey under its neck and holds on until it is suffocated and goes limp. There would be no holes in the skull (except by scavengers) in this case.

 

[Rayemonde]

I can understand that if a body had already been consumed or even partly consumed, the search dogs might not find them (because it wouldn't smell like *them* any more). But the cadaver dogs should find them. Unless they were too busy being distracted by the reservoir.
If the dogs are trained not to follow or to actively avoid mountain lion scent, I don't understand how they could tree a mountain lion. They should have avoided it.

 

[giagreen]

I can understand that if a body had already been consumed or even partly consumed, the search dogs might not find them (because it wouldn't smell like *them* any more). But the cadaver dogs should find them. Unless they were too busy being distracted by the reservoir.
If the dogs are trained not to follow or to actively avoid mountain lion scent, I don't understand how they could tree a mountain lion. They should have avoided it.

I'll dig the link back up. But a ml scent can also be so thick it could cover up other scents. Dogs that are even trained just to track ml can get confused from it.

 

[giagreen]

A ML often attacks from the side and grabs the prey under its neck and holds on until it is suffocated and goes limp. There would be no holes in the skull (except by scavengers) in this case.

Yep and it also can snap its prays neck which would also be a good way not to leave blood behind depending on how the first bite would of happen.

"When it kills, it fastens its jaws to the back of the prey's neck, snapping it by twisting the head with a blow from its paw."

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2006/06/lion-dogs

 

[ILOKAL]

I can understand that if a body had already been consumed or even partly consumed, the search dogs might not find them (because it wouldn't smell like *them* any more). But the cadaver dogs should find them. Unless they were too busy being distracted by the reservoir.
If the dogs are trained not to follow or to actively avoid mountain lion scent, I don't understand how they could tree a mountain lion. They should have avoided it.

They were animal tracking dogs.

 

[KayCherry]

Just checking in, always hopeful some ounce of news will come. Beyond baffling and frustrating there really haven't been any good leads.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Just checking in, always hopeful some ounce of news will come. Beyond baffling and frustrating there really haven't been any good leads.

Just jumping off your post as I am checking in also. Sure wish poor little DeOrr would be found. [emoji20]

 

[Rayemonde]

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yg4ewCXVSM4[/video]

 

[Deleted member 718]

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/905603702855548

Hope it's okay to share this link - it's a media release by an investigative agency stating that they have been in discussions with DeOrr's family about possibly getting involved with the case.

So, what's going on with this? Is Klein Investigations getting involved? Hoping to hear something...