IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #3

[cady]

I think that we will discover that this is just not as complex as LE describes. It's just troublesome for their reputation. JMO

 

[looking4OPH]

Chicago Tribune editorial and comments are excellent. JMO

At least some MSM is trying to keep it alive.

 

[looking4OPH]

This is something that has bothered me also. We don't know exactly what his condition was or what medical care was attempted, just that he was not transported to the hospital and he died at the scene. I am a paramedic and I was surprised by this. Police do not have the authority to declare a person deceased. Even paramedics have strict criteria for these situations. From the discription of his injuries, the short amount of time that had elapsed, and his status as a police officer, I expected them to go above and beyond in an attempt to save his life. It does not sound like the police officers who were the first on scene even began CPR.

It seemed odd to me too that day that little was heard about those early minutes.

Who does have authority to declare someone deceased at a scene? When declared deceased at the scene by a paramedic, where does a body go? Hospital? Morgue?

 

[Tillicum]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...-shooting-pension-st-0925-20150925-story.html

 

[bluesneakers]

I respectfully disagree. There is life insurance and pensions and of course savings, 401K, etc...that is for widows of police officers who die whether at work or off work. The survivor benefit for an officer killed in the line of duty is different. I think that should be held sacred and if not, can be all too attractive for abuse. And on top of that, it is fraud. That said, I would want it to be 100% certain that it was a suicide before denying the family the death benefit.

I see your point, and thinking about it more I agree. I tend to look at suicide from a personal viewpoint (I imagine most of us do) first and saw losing the benefit as a punishment rather than getting the benefit as a privilege, but now I see how it could be seen as an incentive for suicide. If someone is already vulnerable it could even be dangerous. And then yes, it becomes a case of fraud.

Thank you.

 

[Chuz Life]

Thanks for the pics, Duchess, and for your analysis/speculation. In my view, it just makes the whole thing seem all the stranger.

It's almost verbatim what I posted in an earlier thread myself.

 

[Chuz Life]

On another note, had a weird revelation tonight. I'm OK with the idea of paying veteran cop's families the full death benefit if they die while on patrol: Suicide or not.

Do you feel the same, even when the suicide is staged to look like an officer was killed in the line of duty and upwards of a million dollars or more are spent on a massive manhunt for three fictitious cop killers - in a way that puts the general public in a state of panic and fear?

 

[Montjoy]

Chicago Tribune editorial and comments are excellent. JMO

Here's a link to the Chicago Tribune editorial -- I agree, it's excellent:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...fox-lake-police-edit-0925-20150924-story.html

 

[night train]

Do you feel the same, even when the suicide is staged to look like an officer was killed in the line of duty and upwards of a million dollars or more are spent on a massive manhunt for three fictitious cop killers - in a way that puts the general public in a state of panic and fear?

The threshold needed for "general public" to choose to feel "panic and fear" is exceedingly low . I considered most of it over reaction. FWIW I'm not a gun owner.

We don't know the truth and may never know the entire truth, your question assumes certainty.
I believe my following post to The Dutchess shows I'm generally ambivalent about it.A killed on duty death benefit doesn't reach the level of several associated costs.

 

[Keefer]

The threshold needed for "general public" to choose to feel "panic and fear" is exceedingly low . I considered most of it over reaction. FWIW I'm not a gun owner.

We don't know the truth and may never know the entire truth, your question assumes certainty.
I believe my following post to The Dutchess shows I'm generally ambivalent about it.A killed on duty death benefit doesn't reach the level of several associated costs.

I agree. The media are masters at pushing people's buttons. The fear button is their favorite. As far as the manhunt goes I doubt that they knew with any certainty that it was suicide as this unfolded. Maybe next time they can borrow some websleuthers so they don't make the same mistake.

 

[Montjoy]

I agree. The media are masters at pushing people's buttons. The fear button is their favorite. As far as the manhunt goes I doubt that they knew with any certainty that it was suicide as this unfolded. Maybe next time they can borrow some websleuthers so they don't make the same mistake.

I agree. In the heat of the moment, when they arrived on the scene, I doubt that suicide even crossed their minds as a possibility. To be fair, I'm pretty sure all of us felt the same way. But they've had so much time to re-evaluate everything.

Also, at this point, I don't think that the media is trying to push any buttons. If anything, they're reluctant to suggest suicide as a possibility. I think that's why I consider the Tribune editorial to be somewhat brave, and it may prove helpful.

 

[TheDuchess]

I agree. In the heat of the moment, when they arrived on the scene, I doubt that suicide even crossed their minds as a possibility. To be fair, I'm pretty sure all of us felt the same way. But they've had so much time to re-evaluate everything.

Also, at this point, I don't think that the media is trying to push any buttons. If anything, they're reluctant to suggest suicide as a possibility. I think that's why I consider the Tribune editorial to be somewhat brave, and it may prove helpful.

And to be fair this was the first officer killed in the history of Fox Lake I believe? And extremely rare in Lake County period. And to know we had one just last year who has now died in McHenry County nothing about this is routine at all. This isn't Chicago or Detroit. These are sleepy little towns where there isn't a lot of violent crime.


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[Boo Radley]

It seemed odd to me too that day that little was heard about those early minutes.

Who does have authority to declare someone deceased at a scene? When declared deceased at the scene by a paramedic, where does a body go? Hospital? Morgue?

The only person legally allowed to declare someone officially deceased outside of a hospital setting is the coroners office. A paramedic, depending on the protocol established by the EMS system that they operate within, may determine that the patient meets the criteria to withhold or withdraw resuscitative efforts. The criteria is designed to err on the side of caution so that you never assume that a patient is deceased if there is any chance that they could possibly be saved. In the case of traumatic injury such as a gunshot wound, blood loss is not usually enough to qualify. A survivable amount of blood loss can appear horrific to a layperson. Wounds that appear to many to be fatal can also be survivable. You will be shocked if you check google for suicide attempts via shotgun that were not fatal.

So, if the paramedics determine that he patient meets the criteria to withhold resuscitative efforts, the scene is secured and any further contact with the patient or scene is kept to a minimum. The paramedics or the police department will the contact the coroners office. Depending on the circumstances, the coroner may decide that the death appears to be from natural causes and does not seem suspicious. They will then declare an official time of death and authorize a funeral home to pick up the body. If the coroner feels for any reason that they need more information, they will come to the scene to investigate. After investigating, they can decide to release the body to a funeral home or take custody of the body if they determine that there is a need for an autopsy.

Either way, only the coroners office can declare that the patient is dead and the time of this declaration is obviously documented. After an investigation and/or autopsy, the coroner may also estimate the date & time when the patient actually died. These 2 times are sometimes both referred to as "time of death" and may be confused with each other.

So in summary, a patient who who dies in a hospital will be brought to the hospital mourge. A patient who dies outside of a hospital will be picked up by the coroner or funeral home. Only in very rare circumstances would a death outside of a hospital be transported to a hospital morgue.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Photo of the street straight across from the ribbons noticed lots of blue ribbons EVERYWHERE in town.
.

Photos of Honing Road

And broke my heart to see this sign when I stopped at the gas station down the road.

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Thanks for the pics. I thought that it would look more ghetto, dilapidated and desolated. But the area pictures of near location; Makes it seem in a not too bad of a location. Thanks.

 

[cady]

The good news about not telling falsehoods and not allowing falsehoods to fester is that telling the truth in the first place, means you never have to lie to cover it up. JMO

 

[vestigare]

The pension board has full discretion to determine what constitutes line of duty and what benefits are appropriate, said Goodloe.

"The board is ultimately the finder of fact and they have to base it on the evidence before them," she said.

Under Illinois law, each pension board consists of two police officers, one retired police officer and two mayoral appointees.

"The intent is that police officers would control their fund, which is why you have three active and retired officers and two municipal appointees. That said, they are fiduciaries – they wear the hat of a pension fund trustee, and they are to review the evidence as it is, unbiased and impartial," Atwell said.



^^^^^^^That statement should worry everyone in Illinois. There is a reason that state is in debt. That pension fund is paid from tax dollars and now I wonder if they are hoping to sway public sentiment to paying out even if this is suicide.

Oooh I hate when bureaucrats spend my money as if they are entitled to it.

 

[scmom]

I'm confused. Is there a MSM article stating Lt. Gliniewicz committed suicide?

 

[vestigare]

Thanks Duchess for the pictures.

 

[cady]

I'm confused. Is there a MSM article stating Lt. Gliniewicz committed suicide?

Not that I have seen, but I have seen many referring to CG as a slain officer. So far, there has been no determination officially of the mode of death. JMO

 

[vestigare]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/2...und-death-illinois-cop-despite-lengthy-probe/

Fox News has learned that the police car Gliniewicz was in on the morning of Sept. 1 did have a GPS tracking system in it, which will indicate when he arrived to the crime scene. So far that information has not been released. Two sources close to the investigation tells Fox news it’s possible Gliniewicz arrived up to 20 minutes before he radioed in about three suspects, raising more questions about what happened that day.