John Andrew Ramsey

It is one of my opinions that BR was a quietly simmering pot that boiled over Christmas day. I feel that there were problems in that family and one of those signs, was the escalating violent acting out of BR. He liked to hit her! In the head! He liked to threaten her with harm and chase her until she would hide. Hey, even negative attention, is attention when you're starved for it. Im not saying she was just sitting there and he would strike. She was after all a 6 y/o little sister and could probably push his buttons. I do however feel, that he would respond violently and with rage

.

Where has it been stated Burke Ramsey liked to hit his sister? It is a big bold statement to claim he liked to hit her on the head. The night of the events is an isolated strike, to say "like" implies habit and I have never read or heard about Burke chasing his sister or threatening her with violence. Comments like these can create apocrypha and myths if they start spreading.

The golf club incident is in my opinion quite irrelevant

A) we have no idea how it really happened

B) all we know is Patsy's recollection of events which could be blurry, unreliable or fabricated

C) as not one of us was there, intention is a hundred percent disputable. It might have in fact been, an accident.

We can't rely on this accident to cast Burke Ramsey as a dangerous child back then. I love reading this forum and forums for justice as well but I will be very honest, the one thing that really irritated me a long time ago was reading a thread about Burke Ramsey's facebook. It contained posts such as:

"He looks so creepy in this picture"

"His girlfriend looks like his dead sister, he sure likes them blonde"

"There is not even a single in memory of my sister album, he sure has moved on"

Then somebody even went to the great lenght of posting a list of his likes. I have also see his picture with the cat openly mocked. This is quite disrespectful I think? I like to analyze all angles, I do have an open mind to BDI , to PDI, to JDI. However I place no value on the golf incident and if there is other evidence he liked to hit his sister I would like to read it.
 
John blamed JonBenet, for her own death. Sick and disgusting!!

I also think that if Burke molested JB, it was a learned behavior. Something that either he observed, or JB told him about.

Great! So John Ramsey once refered to Jonbenét as "a handful" and thus we can claim he blamed her for her death. Not before teaching his son how to molest her though, and all probably because the child wanted to pick out her own clothes.

Are you serious? This thread had a very interesting post in the beginning because it revealed a recollection (yet to be confirmed for me by any of our savy members) that John had already declared Jonbenét dead as early as 11 AM. But as I continue reading I kind of wish I hadn't because I'm feeling irritated by this nonsense. Let's discuss John's possible involvement in this crime using something more solid than a comment as the starting point. How on earth does "spark plug" equal blaming the victim for her death?
 
Since this has been bumped, and people are considering JARDI theories, may I point out Cynic's post #11, and Agatha_C's post #56.


I would also point out that if JARDI, no fewer than 7 people are involved in providing a false alibi for JAR. While it's believable that LR and MR might lie to protect JAR, and maybe SL is sucked into doing the same, it's much harder to believe the other four were close enough to be willing to make false statements to police to help JAR get away with murder.

Brad Millard was a friend. Good enough friend to lie to the police? Good enough to fly JAR to GA in the wee hours of the 26th thus making him an accessory after the fact ? IMO not likely.

Chris Stanley. Same as above.

Harry Smiles. He was a friend of Lucinda's. Why would he feel a need to lie about JAR's presence in GA the evening of the 25th?

Judy Crowder. Neighbor who hosted Christmas dinner attended by Lucinda, MR, SL, and JAR. I'd think it's very unlikely she was willing to give JAR a false alibi.

A rational person would have to conclude that it's unlikely 7 people agreed to provide JAR with a false alibi.

JARDI doesn't fly, it just doesn't have wings.

Thank you, this is actually very helpful. I seriously doubt as well all 7 would lie for him. I also agree with the person in this thread who said the lawyers were quickly hired to keep the family quiet about John's life, not necessarily that JAR was there that night. After reading this thread I seriously doubt JAR was in the house that night. If the photos or missing video in fact depict some key event, it most likely involves the 3 people present at that time. And after looking at the origin of the obsession comments, basically "a friend of a friend who told a friend" I will personally discard the story about JAR talking obssessively about Jonbenét all the time as apocrypha. Seriously, we cannot rely on what a friend of your friend said. I'm glad I read this thread after all.
 
""Classmates of JAR have stated for the record that he talked about JonBenet all the time... How beautiful she was and how much he loved her. He was fixated on her."


This has circulated for eons. Is there ANY possible way to track down the original source of this info?


"Just for what it's worth- my daughter was friends with a young man who attended the U of C at Boulder in 1996. She visited him there over the February (1997) break, and of course the case was red-hot at the time.
He did not know JAR personally, but did know who he was. The Rs were, as we know, prone to flaunt their wealth and perceived power. This young man said that it was well-known that JAR was "obsessed" with his little sister."

And here it is again...coming from an actual websleuths member in 2014. Some may not have believed your story about your daughter but its a fact this info about JAR's infatuation with Jonbenet goes back to the late 90s.


After reading this thread I seriously doubt JAR was in the house that night. If the photos or missing video in fact depict some key event, it most likely involves the 3 people present at that time. And after looking at the origin of the obsession comments, basically "a friend of a friend who told a friend" I will personally discard the story about JAR talking obssessively about Jonbenét all the time as apocrypha. Seriously, we cannot rely on what a friend of your friend said. I'm glad I read this thread after all.

When it comes to JAR, most people who take him into account do not believe he was there that night and killed her. They believe basically what the above quotes state.....he was obsessed with her and may have taken photographs of her and/or was possibly one of her abusers.

There's a reason his area of the house looked like Yucca Flats after the blast and he had a suitcase containing a semen stained blanket and a Dr Seuss book and its highly doubtful it was because his hands were clean.

Thanks for bumping this thread. He is rarely talked about when discussing this case although more focus was placed on him by sleuthers many years ago.
 
verbatim/

*WS Feb 11, 2014


** Topix

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/T3DDHBE5VJGAEF5OT/p2
Nov 14, 2006 - Classmates of JAR have stated for the record that he talked about JonBenet all the time... How beautiful she was and how much he loved her.

Thanks for finding that. Now that gets us one step closer to its original source. That post is from ten years ago by a poster named Patricia Fox. Is she still around? Does she post here under a different name?

The info/rumors regarding JAR's "obsession" with Jonbenet go back much further than that. It's really unfortunate that all the crime sites from the late 1990s no longer exist. It may be impossible to trace it back to its original source(s).


edit: That poster Patricia Fox mentions JAR in some other posts there.

I have always believed that the items found in suitcase had been there ever since JAR left suitcase there and that when John Ramsey moved the suitcase from place to place, he was not aware anything was in that suitcase. I am sure it came as a complete shock to John and Patsy when suitcase was opened and JAR's semen stained blanket and JonBenet's book were discovered inside.

I agree 100% and I wish she would sign up here.
 
singularity,
I have always believed that the items found in suitcase had been there ever since JAR left suitcase there and that when John Ramsey moved the suitcase from place to place, he was not aware anything was in that suitcase. I am sure it came as a complete shock to John and Patsy when suitcase was opened and JAR's semen stained blanket and JonBenet's book were discovered inside.

JAR has a pretty airtight alibi. I doubt he was involved in JonBenet's death. Also was PR not using JAR's bedroom for vacation packing on Christmas Day/Evening?

Its been alleged that JAR might be responsible for some prior chronic assaults and for taking the cutesy photographs found in the basement, so why should any of the three resident R's move apparent unconnected items down to the basement?

Also JR's story about moving the suitcase down to the basement does not ring true, i.e. CEO does housework, but employs a house made/housekeeper also!

Why just a book and a blanket in the suitcase, why not some other nondescript items typically used by an undergrad' ?

Speculating, it looks to me as if the suitcase, book and blanket might form part of a prior staging, which was later abandonded?

.
 
Yes, this has always bothered me.

Why a book and a blanket??

Also possible that Burke idolized his big brother & kept these items hidden.

Not implying anything inappropriate or nefarious, just that either little sib may have picked up the blanket & remembered JAR reading a book.
 
singularity,


JAR has a pretty airtight alibi. I doubt he was involved in JonBenet's death. Also was PR not using JAR's bedroom for vacation packing on Christmas Day/Evening?

Its been alleged that JAR might be responsible for some prior chronic assaults and for taking the cutesy photographs found in the basement, so why should any of the three resident R's move apparent unconnected items down to the basement?

Also JR's story about moving the suitcase down to the basement does not ring true, i.e. CEO does housework, but employs a house made/housekeeper also!

Why just a book and a blanket in the suitcase, why not some other nondescript items typically used by an undergrad' ?

Speculating, it looks to me as if the suitcase, book and blanket might form part of a prior staging, which was later abandonded?

.

]I know of the alibi and I don't think he killed her. I may have to write something like that in my sig since I do focus on JAR and his area of the house....which may cause some to think I believe he killed her. Yes Patsy was using his area of the house that night and also remember how she played dumb acting like she didn't know where anything belonged in that room even though she had been in there hours earlier.

IMO she had multiple abusers and he is fairly high on the list of suspects in that regard. Just because he didn't kill her doesn't mean he deserves a free pass. If the abuse played a role in lighting the fuse for her eventual murder, he is a key player in the days/weeks/months leading up to her murder.

I agree the contents of the suitcase are odd in the fact there's nothing in it but those items, If part of a prior staging, what in the hell are John and/or Patsy doing placing those two items that can link things to JAR in the suitcase? What were they trying to convey with such a layer of staging? The contents of that suitcase scream one person's name....JAR.

AS for moving photographs into the basement, where else are they going to place them? Imagine you're the Ramseys and JAR's room contains some interesting items. Do you leave them all there for the cops to see or do you toss them down into the basement? There are other odd items in his room but apparently only felt the need to toss things directly related to JB down there. In the transcripts other items in his room are discussed and Patsy does what Patsy does best....plays dumb while being the smartest person in the room during the interview(s).

I wish LS had NEVER been involved in this case. He is the person who turned that suitcase into a red herring(the step out the window for the intruder). He wasn't smart enough to realize that the contents of the suitcase are what makes the suitcase an interesting clue....not the fact it is sitting near a window.


Also possible that Burke idolized his big brother & kept these items hidden.

Not implying anything inappropriate or nefarious, just that either little sib may have picked up the blanket & remembered JAR reading a book.
Even if Burke idolized his big brother, why on earth would he hide a semen stained blanket and Dr Seuss book? I don't understand your logic.

So one of the little sibs picks up a semen stained blanket and remembers JAR reading the book to them? Yeah that don't sound inappropriate at all....

How do these two very interesting items wind up in a suitcase in the general vicinity of a dead six year old girl?

Its an absolute outrage that John and Patsy were not grilled on this but instead just got to sit there while LS pretends it was used as a step for the intruder and John plays pretend right along with him.
 
Speculating, it looks to me as if the suitcase, book and blanket might form part of a prior staging, which was later abandoned?

Were these items meant to be subsequently brought to a exterior site where JBR's body could be discovered?
Or was the book related to the sexual aspect of the assault, and then hidden from view?
 
Re: JAR's bedroom: Apparently it was full of cleaning liquid, rope and some objects Patsy could not identify. Also I read one corner of the bed suggested somebody had come out from under it? Judging by how the blanket/sheet was pulled slightly up. Don't know what to make of all this.

Re: The Suitcase: Is it true to date we don't know the specific title of the Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase? If this book combined with the semen stained blanket were part of a staging idea, what was it exactly? I can't even begin to comprehend it, any idea??
 
(bbm)
Re: JAR's bedroom: Apparently it was full of cleaning liquid, rope and some objects Patsy could not identify. Also I read one corner of the bed suggested somebody had come out from under it? Judging by how the blanket/sheet was pulled slightly up. Don't know what to make of all this.

Re: The Suitcase: Is it true to date we don't know the specific title of the Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase? If this book combined with the semen stained blanket were part of a staging idea, what was it exactly? I can't even begin to comprehend it, any idea??
Okay, FrankieB. If you (or any other nubes) don't know what many here at WS believe the book was, prepare to be blown away...

Thanks to the work of ACandyRose, midwest mama, and DeDee, it was most likely this book described at Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Lady_Godivas

More about it, as well as the illustrations here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai.../dr-seusss-little-known-book-of-nudes/253891/

Discussions about it can be found in the following two threads beginning on the referenced pages:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?198726-The-Suitcase-Duvet-Sham-amp-Dr-Suess/page14
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...e-blanket-in-a-suitcase-in-the-basement/page4
 
"One of the signs of child abuse is when the child exhibits symptoms of genetic discomfort on a Monday." Ding ding. When a child exhibited this symptom in my class as a teacher my internal alarm went off. It's like someone tapping you on the shoulder and saying PAY ATTENTION.
 
Were these items meant to be subsequently brought to a exterior site where JBR's body could be discovered?
Or was the book related to the sexual aspect of the assault, and then hidden from view?

IMO...

semen stained blanket+ Dr Seuss book+ six year old girl= abuse

What else can that combination of items mean? I doubt when those items are brought out it was to have milk and cookies and watch Sesame Street.

IF these items were meant to be taken to an exterior site with Jonbenet's body, only one conclusion can be reached from such a scenario....

They were going to frame JAR. While anything is possible, I have serious doubts on such a scenario. The basement/WC was just a 'catch all' for the family's secrets. They weren't going to dump her body out in the elements.


Frankie....

Re: JAR's bedroom: Apparently it was full of cleaning liquid, rope and some objects Patsy could not identify. Also I read one corner of the bed suggested somebody had come out from under it? Judging by how the blanket/sheet was pulled slightly up. Don't know what to make of all this.
IMO it looks like someone just looked under the bed to see what was under there......not hiding under there as LS believes. Dollars to donuts they were looking for any pictures or videos under his bed.

THanks for posting those links otg. It definitely adds another disturbing layer to the case if it indeed was that very book. Even if it wound up just being Cat in the Hat, the book being with that blanket is still one of the more shocking clues in the case.

Teresa...

"One of the signs of child abuse is when the child exhibits symptoms of genetic discomfort on a Monday." Ding ding. When a child exhibited this symptom in my class as a teacher my internal alarm went off. It's like someone tapping you on the shoulder and saying PAY ATTENTION.
Yes this is one of many signs she was being abused.



Edit:

Frankie...

Re: The Suitcase: Is it true to date we don't know the specific title of the Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase? If this book combined with the semen stained blanket were part of a staging idea, what was it exactly?
I don't understand the point of its staging and IMO may not be staging. It got down there somehow so maybe it was considered.....but with its odd contents, what were the plans?

When I was a fence straddler and took IDI more seriously, I thought JAR may have planned it all and sent a couple people in there to pull off the kidnapping/murder. These people were supposed to take all JAR-JB related items out of the house with them but in the chaos, they simply forgot and left them there. It can explain why the suitcase and pics are in the basement and can also help explain why his room is in such a state of flux.

Now that I am RDI, I believe John and Patsy knew of his infatuation with her and simply went through his area of the house with a fine tooth comb and dumped this evidence in the basement.
 
Re: JAR's bedroom: Apparently it was full of cleaning liquid, rope and some objects Patsy could not identify.




PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like a drawer. That is the drawer in the guest -- in John Andrew's
room.

TRIP DEMUTH: What is the red and black item?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I can't tell. I don't know.

TOM HANEY: Go ahead.

PATSY RAMSEY: I was going to say, do you have a picture of it blown up?

TOM HANEY: No, we don't.

PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.

TOM HANEY: Can you tell us, identify the other items that are in there.

PATSY RAMSEY: I can't. This (inaudible). John Andrew did (inaudible), that he would hang up.
Looks like just clothes in there. Can't tell.

TOM HANEY: Okay. How about 280, and we can probably skip that one quickly.

PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't know what that is.

TOM HANEY: Is that the next sequence. Yeah. Some of these are going to be gone over quickly, and we will skip over to 281. There is none. So we go to 282, which is a photo 283.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is a drawer with some markers in it. I don't know what drawer it is

A red and black item? Other items that are (inaudible)....meaning they are possibly redactions. What are in these photos they want to skip over so quickly?



TOM HANEY: And 285.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is a makeup bag, like a video and video. Can't tell what it is. I don't know
where it is. A wooden something.

TOM HANEY: There is no previous photo that kind of --

PATSY RAMSEY: Goes with that.

TOM HANEY: Yeah.

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know where it is.

TOM HANEY: Okay. And 286 would be next.

PATSY RAMSEY: This is the John Andrew's room again, that fabric.

TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know what piece of furniture that is that the fabric is on?

PATSY RAMSEY: I can't tell. A chair covering it when they were tossing pillows and the dust
ruffle and the draperies coming down. (Inaudible). I don't know. A little purple bow or something.

A wooden something? That fabric? More videos?

So basically there are five photographs(at least) of JAR's room that defy explanation and they aren't too keen on getting to the bottom of it....

TRIP DeMUTH: That doesn't jog any bells, though, telling you it's in a bag by the chair
in John Andrew's bedroom?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

TOM HANEY: And the next photo is marked 120TET8.

PATSY RAMSEY: Are we looking for anything special here?

TOM HANEY: Do you see anything unusual in there?

PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know what this -- that looks like cleaning fluid or Windex
or something, I don't know what that would be doing sitting down there.

TOM HANEY: Uh-huh (yes).

PATSY RAMSEY: That's strange. I can't tell what that is.

Another strange item and she also points out a bottle of cleaning fluid. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why cleaning fluid is in that room.


More cleaning fluid and the subject of the scarf comes up....

TRIP DeMUTH: It's a red object under the table?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.

PATSY RAMSEY: There's -- looks like that scarf that we've seen previously.

TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Black and red scarf on the bar.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

TRIP DeMUTH: Looks like it -- where does it look like it is in this photo?

PATSY RAMSEY: What, the scarf?

TRIP DeMUTH: Uh-huh (yes).

PATSY RAMSEY: Hanging on, hanging on the little ledge there by the bar. Is that where it
was on the other one?

TRIP DeMUTH: The other photo we looked at it was on the bar itself.

PATSY RAMSEY: It was on the bar. This just looks strange to me.

TRIP DeMUTH: Cleaning?

PATSY RAMSEY: Cleaning, Windex or whatever that is.

TRIP DeMUTH: Underneath the table?

PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.) I mean, I just don't know why it would be there. It would
either be in the cleaning closet or under the kitchen sink or somewhere (inaudible).

TOM HANEY: On the top of the file of books --

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

Patsy, the cleaning fluid is out because you guys spent a portion of that night cleaning up areas of the house. So strange how the scarf is in different areas depending on which photographs are being looked at.
 
Some really interesting theories in those threads otg shared, this one particularly stuck out: The adult Dr. Seuss book was used to groom Jonbenét into being comfortable naked. What is unclear to me is if this happened on the night she died or before.

I also noticed the source for this claim is a screen shot from a list shown in a television program but nobody has cleared this up: is that list an actual leaked document?

Also take a look at the interrogation with Patsy, she is asked if Andrew owned a Dr. Seuss book and she replies he should have college books, not Dr. Seuss books. She asks if the book has a kid's name on it, they tell her it actually has JAR's name on it, the end...so? What happened then?

And I still do not understand the book and blanket being where they were found. Can we be sure they were the two sole items in the suitcase? There are so many items we don't know about...
 
I just remembered reading here (can't remember the thread) that Jonbenét felt very shy taking her clothes off infront of adults (as any normal child I suppose) it would be helpful to remember who said this. When I read it I didn't give it any particular significance but now that it's been proposed the book was the adult Dr. Seuss, it does make sense it was being used to groom her into viewing nudity differently...a big stretch or possible?
 
There is also info that she had no problems whatsoever taking her clothes off in front of others. Don't remember the source but apparently she would run up to someone naked and ask, "Am I pretty?" We also know how she would let anyone wipe her in the bathroom and even ask strangers to do it. THis girl had no boundaries. Is this due to already ongoing abuse, a result of grooming, etc.?

She wasn't shy around adults. There are stories of her being very assertive and even ordering adults around....such as telling people who will sit where in the car and preventing adults from answering the door during parties telling them to stop, that SHE will answer the door.

A very quirky personality was coming to the surface of this six year old girl...a paradoxical one I might add. On one hand showing confidence and maturity beyond her years while at the same time regressing in her toilet training.
 
she would run up to someone naked and ask, "Am I pretty?" We also know how she would let anyone wipe her in the bathroom and even ask strangers to do it. THis girl had no boundaries. Is this due to already ongoing abuse, a result of grooming, etc.?

Jesus, that is awful. I knew about the wiping but not the running nude to ask questions, it does make me think that regardless of the type of Dr. Seuss that was in the suitcase, it was used for grooming anyway.

A very quirky personality was coming to the surface of this six year old girl...

You know, I just read a thread where a Dr. Bea answered a few questions from forum users and this really stuck out for me: she said this girl was being applied so much pressure (and crazyness as we keep learning) that without therapy or "some miracle" she would have applied these pressures to her OWN children in the future...
 

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