jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[antiquegirl]

AG, here is a link to the Agreed Statement of Facts for the Cecilia Zhang case. Start at page 17 (#84), which is the Position of the Prosecution to accept the 2nd degree plea and their decision to do so, hopefully it will help you understand why it happened. HTH.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ceciliazhang/gfx/zhangstatementfact.pdf

Thanks, NBG! That's a very clear explanation and makes sense. Any idea why this was tried in Brampton? TIA

 

[nursebeeme]

please let us keep the discussion to the Victoria Stafford case. Thanks

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Everyone has the right to plead not guilty (it isn't up to his lawyer to decide for his client). If MR had not pleaded anything, the judge would have entered a plea of not guilty I believe.

HK, you are correct, if MR had not said anything when asked, the Court would have entered a plea of not guilty. The lawyer can advise their client what to do, though ultimately it is up to the client to make the final decision.

In Canada, pleading “not guilty” does not mean that the defendant denies committing the offence. It means that they are making the Crown prove the case against them, if they can. If the defendeant pleads not guilty, the judge presumes they are innocent unless the Crown proves that they are guilty, which is why the vast majority plead not guilty, there is always a chance of getting off if the Crown can't prove the case against them.

Just my :twocents:

 

[antiquegirl]

Ladi and Kitty: No, the intent is irrelevant. See my post about Canadian law re the death of a kidnap victim. He clearly kidnapped the child. The explanation is in the ASoF, as in the link kindly provided by Nobodyzgirl. The reduction in charges was more complicated. Thanks again, NBG.

 

[KMouse]

Interesting theory, one point, TLM would need more than a hammer and garbage bags to clean up that dump she lived in.
:moo::moo::moo::moo::moo:

And then some. More like a match and a can of gas.

I don't think TLM was the type to watch HGTV and buy home decoration magazines. If the defence were to try to put forth a suggestion that the Home Depot trip was to buy stuff to fix her place up it would make him look like Jose Baez. I don't think it's a good idea to insult the intelligence of the jury.

 

[KMouse]

Why does the Crown want to show the relationship between MR & TLM to be boyfriend/girlfriend? How does that benefit their case? Or better yet why do they want to show that TLM believed MR to be her boyfriend?

I have my own thoughts but want to know what others think?

 

[matou]

He's going to have to tread lightly with this witness. She's taken responsibility for the murder. If he goes on the attack, she may turn around and bite back. Can't trust rabid pit bulls! :jail:

:moo:

Exactly, I don't think he will even ask anything about the hammer, the murder itself, the disposal of the clothes, the clean up at the car wash, because she could open it up to showing culpability on MR's side. He will likely refer to her prior criminal record and her possible jealousy of MR being with other women. JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Ladi and Kitty: No, the intent is irrelevant. See my post about Canadian law re the death of a kidnap victim. He clearly kidnapped the child. The explanation is in the ASoF, as in the link kindly provided by Nobodyzgirl. The reduction in charges was more complicated. Thanks again, NBG.

I could not open that pdf file, sorry

 

[Hello_Kitty]

And then some. More like a match and a can of gas.

I don't think TLM was the type to watch HGTV and buy home decoration magazines. If the defence were to try to put forth a suggestion that the Home Depot trip was to buy stuff to fix her place up it would make him look like Jose Baez. I don't think it's a good idea to insult the intelligence of the jury.

However, she may have been the type to watch CSI or 48 hours mystery - I was watching the case of Barbara and Rachel Mullinex - Rachel was accused along with her boyfriend of killing her mother. LE asked her why she didn't try to stop her boyfriend when she saw him stab her mother, Rachel replied 'i was frozen in fear', which is exactly what TLM said when asked that same question.

 

[maxfactor]

Why does the Crown want to show the relationship between MR & TLM to be boyfriend/girlfriend? How does that benefit their case? Or better yet why do they want to show that TLM believed MR to be her boyfriend?

I have my own thoughts but want to know what others think?

There's always a possibility that the Crown still believes she is covering for him, being able to prove they were boyfriend?girlfriend would make this a likelier possibility IMO.

 

[fats]

I think the relationship between TLM and MR needs to be established as Girl-Boyfriend as this show they are doing things together and much closer than just friends. Some of the details will illustrate the "control" he had over her. At one point she was willing to cover for him etc --also the comment " that she'll do anything for a little bit of love.

I am getting the impression that he was a controller and that she didn't "wake up that morning thinking of kidnapping and killing a child" but he was able to manipulate her to such an extent that she would do things for him and help him in carrying out his crime.

Regarding his appearance--he's put on a lot of weight and I am wondering if this is intentional to alter his appearance. Speaking of altering his appearance that Jar-head hair cut makes him look <modsnip> than ever and also alters his appearance. He also gave the advice to TLM to change her appearance after the crime. Do you think the media exposure is going to bring more accusations to teh forefront and somehow he doesn't want to be
recognized?

Anyone have any theories?

 

[KMouse]

There's always a possibility that the Crown still believes she is covering for him, being able to prove they were boyfriend?girlfriend would make this a likelier possibility IMO.

I agree. I know myself I have wondered the same thing.
The "you'll do anything bit a little bit of love" sent that message.

 

[KMouse]

I think the relationship between TLM and MR needs to be established as Girl-Boyfriend as this show they are doing things together and much closer than just friends. Some of the details will illustrate the "control" he had over her. At one point she was willing to cover for him etc --also the comment " that she'll do anything for a little bit of love.

I am getting the impression that he was a controller and that she didn't "wake up that morning thinking of kidnapping and killing a child" but he was able to manipulate her to such an extent that she would do things for him and help him in carrying out his crime.

Regarding his appearance--he's put on a lot of weight and I am wondering if this is intentional to alter his appearance. Speaking of altering his appearance that Jar-head hair cut makes him look <modsnip> than ever and also alters his appearance. He also gave the advice to TLM to change her appearance after the crime. Do you think the media exposure is going to bring more accusations to teh forefront and somehow he doesn't want to be
recognized?

Anyone have any theories?

I wondered about his appearance too. The hair cut does not do him any favors. I hope he is smirking in court like we see in that picture taken of him in the car after court.
His weight gain may be caused by eating starchy-fatty jail food and having limited gym time.

 

[swedie]

So we'll finally know what direction their taking the defense strategy, from the looks of it, it seems we're going to hear a Jose Baez classic

Hi Oldsoul. I know what you're meaning by this comment. You're not comparing Derstine personally to Baez, you're saying his defense strategy will be comparable to Baez's defense tactics. Derstine is very soft spoken and not at all arrogant, cocky or boisterous like Baez. What troubles me thus far, his cross examinations have been futile as far as defending his client. There has been at least six witnesses called to the stand and he has not cross examined at least half of those witnesses, and the ones he has cross examined, there was nothing fruitful to come out of his cross. He had better turn up the heat on TLM as she is the star witness for the Crown. Although I do not see her testimony being relied upon heavily by the jurors. Her testimony I assume is just to give the jurors a clearer picture of how that tragic day played out. IMHO it's possible Derstine may know, according to the evidence, there isn't much hope of his client getting off and therefore he is just going with the flow.:waitasec: I don't recall if we every establish how Derstine was being paid. I would imagine due to MR's financial situation, his age (no one is financially responsible for him), he is being paid through legal aid. Oh how I would love to be a neuron within Derstine's brain lol.:blushing: I would love to know what he is thinking about this whole case. :moo:

 

[dilbert]

A few people now have mentioned here how they think MR is "fugly, a "fatso" and other names in regards to how he looks. I'm not really sure of
of the relevance? Do people somehow think that being ugly and fat makes one look more guilty? Or maybe it's difficult for people to ignore the
misconception that people who commit these types of crimes don't look like the guy next door? If MR is guilty, he certainly doesn't fit the stereotypical idea of the neighbourhood pedophile, nor the "boogeyman".

I can understand the questioning of his recent haircut, I doubt it's so that he can't be recognized at a later date because no doubt the media do their best to get photos of him, if he is acquitted he may want to alter his appearance, and rightly so.

Why is it that no one is questioning TLM's appearance? The photo of her at the Super 8 doesn't exactly make her look like the "pretty little number" that MR allegedly is to have said. What about her appearance now? Is the pretty bob haircut and glasses a way to make her appear more innocent, naive and demure? If it is, it sure isn't working with me.

MOO

 

[dilbert]

I wondered about his appearance too. The hair cut does not do him any favors. I hope he is smirking in court like we see in that picture taken of him in the car after court.
His weight gain may be caused by eating starchy-fatty jail food and having limited gym time.

It looked to me like he was squinting in the sun, certainly not a smirk. If he was smirking, maybe it's because he thinks the media were being a little bit silly in their efforts to get his photo.

MOO

 

[swedie]

There's always a possibility that the Crown still believes she is covering for him, being able to prove they were boyfriend?girlfriend would make this a likelier possibility IMO.

The Crown could also be trying to show how naive and infatuated TLM was with MR, that she would "do anything for a bit of love". And to show how much of a liar, user and abuser MR was to women. In TLM's mind they were bf/gf so he must have said something to make her believe that. IMHO decent men do not take advantage of women sexually. This is what MR did on that first night out when he "ran into TLM" at the pizza shop. I would not be surprise to discover someone informed him of TLM prior to that first meeting. He stalked her knowing her background and MR felt pretty confident he had someone who could help him carry out his sickening plan. He probably dreamt about this plan long before he met TLM. I would like to know if there was any further investigations done in Guelph concerning young college women being sexually attacked around the time MR lived in Guelph.:waitasec: :what::moo:

 

[Oldsoul2]

Would someone mind posting that motel picture again if possible. I missed it

 

[matou]

I think the relationship between TLM and MR needs to be established as Girl-Boyfriend as this show they are doing things together and much closer than just friends. Some of the details will illustrate the "control" he had over her. At one point she was willing to cover for him etc --also the comment " that she'll do anything for a little bit of love.

I am getting the impression that he was a controller and that she didn't "wake up that morning thinking of kidnapping and killing a child" but he was able to manipulate her to such an extent that she would do things for him and help him in carrying out his crime.

Regarding his appearance--he's put on a lot of weight and I am wondering if this is intentional to alter his appearance. Speaking of altering his appearance that Jar-head hair cut makes him look <modsnip> than ever and also alters his appearance. He also gave the advice to TLM to change her appearance after the crime. Do you think the media exposure is going to bring more accusations to teh forefront and somehow he doesn't want to be
recognized?

Anyone have any theories?

Whoa! Interesting idea. He does look very different from his myspace photos. I think any person who knows him, knows he has been charged in these crimes, and those women he dated with children are likely horrified that he may have done something to their children. If he had committed other crimes in the past, if the victims were strangers to him, he would definitely look way different now than he did then. Why did he cut his hair like that I wonder? JMO

 

[matou]

BTW: TLM had glasses on at the time of her court appearance on May 20th, 2009.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...-tori-stafford-murder-case-where-are-they-now

She didn't even dye her hair. JMO