GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[cottonweaver]

According to text with boyfriend, funds for lawyer for EC, although later she talks about securing one for them as his life is over.

snipped just to ask about that. I don't recall that text to Bryan M but I guess if I missed it Smith will bring that up.

 

[Weki]

I guess I don’t understand why they are withdrawing money and buying supplies to hide out etc if they were planning to turn themselves in. Also, can’t recall now if Jennifer lied about the school redacting the disturbing drawings before giving it to the parents to Kira or to her lover. But it’s clear she was lying to people around this time so I’m not sure how much stock we can put on what she said. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

If only EC had the chance to be born a horse instead we wouldn't be here.

 

[Izzylizzy]

JC had no problem useing her insurance to describe her mental issues to a medical provider to get scripts for Xanax and Adderall.

 

[cottonweaver]

I guess I don’t understand why they are withdrawing money and buying supplies to hide out etc if they were planning to turn themselves in. Also, can’t recall now if Jennifer lied about the school redacting the disturbing drawings before giving it to the parents to Kira or to her lover. But it’s clear she was lying to people around this time so I’m not sure how much stock we can put on what she said. JMO

Looks more and more like they were on the lam, as you said

- The CCTV of James moving the car so that the plate isn't visible from the front is also incriminating. ( Just after the public announcement and they're being sought)
- the ' we're on the run, helicopters...' text to Bryan is also bad.
- the secreting their bags in bins around the studio also looks bad
- the artist has claimed he didn't know they planned to stay overnight, so they lied to him too

yes, she lied to Bryan M
She then goes on to lie to Bryan about the infamous maths worksheet. ( She lied and said she'd only ever seen the later version where Ethan had scrubbed out the drawings.)

Old link
According to McDonald, referencing Shannon Smith:
Her representation was that they wanted to turn themselves in, and they were on their way to do that. However, they didn’t turn themselves in, and we were told they were out of town, except yesterday morning they withdrew $4k from an ATM in Rochester Hills, very close to the court where they could have turned themselves in with no events and no efforts on behalf of law enforcement. Instead they fled, and they sought multiple attempts to hide their location and were eventually tracked down after they parked their car somewhere. A witness saw it...... The suggestion that either of the Defendants did not have access to a phone, or could not get a phone charger is not credible. Defense counsel’s reference to “dad’s phone,” singular, omits the fact that the Defendants had four cell phones when they were found.

'I'm Not Normally Such a Hot Mess': Documents Reveal What Defense Attorney Was Telling the Police During Manhunt for Ethan Crumbley's Parents

An attorney who represents the mother of accused Oxford, Mich. school shooter Ethan Crumbley, 15, provided an interesting series of explanations to law enforcement when officers attempted to secure the arrest of her clients, newly filed court documents indicate.

lawandcrime.com

 

[wyome]

I don’t understand the money withdraw either, unless their credit sucked (probably did as I think I recall it being reported they were late on house payments? Will look for that article) Rushing to get cash to drop a good sized retainer to attract someone who would take them on?

When specifically did she retain Smith? I remember her questioning the raid guy whether or not he knew she had a lawyer? So if that’s the case and they’re lawyered up, what were the communications between them?

J and J never returned to their house to live after the shooting. People knew they were afraid. Why didn’t the lawyer make it Very clear how important it is to comply? It seems weird to me to retain a lawyer and then not return her calls. I literally think these two were scared [modsnip].

 

[KMouse]

I agree that no one saw this coming, but the Crumbley’s DID have one very important piece of information that the school did not…They knew they had bought him that gun a few days before the shooting occurred.

And while they didn’t think their son would murder his classmates, at the very least when the counselor suggested that he might harm himself, I would think that should have been mentioned. Even if it was just “we have firearms at home but they are secured” (if, in fact, they were). Maybe just the mention of access to weapons would have prompted a backpack search? Hindsight is 20/20 though, so it’s all just conjecture at this point.

The school principal or whomever he was testified about the gun culture. It was commonplace for students to pose with firearms in school photos. Students would go hunting before coming to school. How many kids in that school and every school had access to firearms? The parents AND the school failed EC and they failed the students who were murdered and injured. Why on earth did nobody think to ask EC if he was going to harm himself, others and if he had anything in his bag? Why did nobody look in there? It happened on school property therefore the school bears responsibility for this too because they did not provide a safe environment for their students and staff. Everyone had their head up their butt.

 

[Weki]

Prosecutor Keast has had enough of defense counsel’s strategy! Lol. The state seems annoyed that Smith is boobin’ and weavin’ her way through this trial. But I have to agree with her that just like they’ve been complaining that she’s had all this discovery/evidence for 2 years and doesn’t need extra time or handholding, they’ve had all those Facebook messages between the parents and shouldn’t get extra time. They’re the state! Come on! He’s asking for more time to review the 2000 pages of FB messages in prep for Jennifer’s testimony. They should’ve already been preparing for Jennifer’s testimony! Is he saying he hasn’t started on the eve of defense’s case in chief? What?

JMO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I haven't been watching, but it really sounds like the State in this case should spend the weekend studying the success of recent very-well-prosecuted cases (Trial of Letby and trial of Kaitlyn A., "Mo" Wilson's murderer). Because they need a similar ending to win this important case, IMO.

Otherwise this trial sounds (as someone else earlier in the thread brilliantly said) bananas.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I don’t understand the money withdraw either, unless their credit sucked (probably did as I think I recall it being reported they were late on house payments? Will look for that article) Rushing to get cash to drop a good sized retainer to attract someone who would take them on?

When specifically did she retain Smith? I remember her questioning the raid guy whether or not he knew she had a lawyer? So if that’s the case and they’re lawyered up, what were the communications between them?

J and J never returned to their house to live after the shooting. People knew they were afraid. Why didn’t the lawyer make it Very clear how important it is to comply? It seems weird to me to retain a lawyer and then not return her calls. I literally think these two were scared shitless.

They may have wanted cash so if they decided to keep going and not surrender then there would be no electronic financial trail of their location.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I haven't been watching, but it really sounds like the State in this case should spend the weekend studying the success of recent very-well-prosecuted cases (Trial of Letby and trial of Kaitlyn A., "Mo" Wilson's murderer). Because they need a similar ending to win this important case, IMO.

Otherwise this trial sounds (as someone else earlier in the thread brilliantly said) bananas.

How so because both were murder trials and JC is not charged with murder?

 

[dazed_ncurious]

As usual this defense atty doesn’t know how to make a point and sit down. She has to whine on and on and bore everyone to death to the point that her argument loses impact.

Her pretending not to understand the prosecutor’s multiple objections about her saying “unsent” instead of “deleted” was irritating. Prosecutors seem to really dislike her.

This witness’ texts sound juvenile as well. He says he “hates people” and seems supportive of her in general throughout these texts. I guess if I found out my affair partner’s child committed a mass shooting I don’t know how I would react immediately after….maybe I would be sympathetic initially. But if you’re a real friend and supportive of her, why not stick by her now? JMO

I imagine he was having all sorts of panicked emotions about his own life getting ready to implode. Nothing he did at that time will probably make any sense. I missed some parts but it looked like she was initiating most of the texts..and he was probably

No health coverage no dental care for Ethan?

Did someone say this in court? Or is someone just assuming?

It was talked about in court with her former employer I believe.

 

[IAMWAN]

Prosecutor Keast has had enough of defense counsel’s strategy! Lol. The state seems annoyed that Smith is boobin’ and weavin’ her way through this trial. But I have to agree with her that just like they’ve been complaining that she’s had all this discovery/evidence for 2 years and doesn’t need extra time or handholding, they’ve had all those Facebook messages between the parents and shouldn’t get extra time. They’re the state! Come on! He’s asking for more time to review the 2000 pages of FB messages in prep for Jennifer’s testimony. They should’ve already been preparing for Jennifer’s testimony! Is he saying he hasn’t started on the eve of defense’s case in chief? What?

JMO

IMO, what he was saying is that they were prepared with questions that did NOT address the subject matter that was previously ruled as inadmissible and now that the defense opened the door to some of those things, they need time to change their approach/adjust their questions since that information can now be used against her.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

How so because both were murder trials and JC is not charged with murder?

Both of those trials had a clear well-organized presentation of the evidence at the end and a clear explanation why the defendant was allegedly guilty as charged. There was a feeling in those trials that the prosecution was well-prepared and knew exactly what they were doing. (My opinions, based on what people who watched the trials have written on these threads.)

 

[MrsWatson]

Lieutenant: Crumbley parents would face murder charges if there was evidence they’d seen journal

A lieutenant testifying during Jennifer Crumbley’s trial said the parents of the Oxford High School shooter would be facing murder charges if there was evidence that they had seen the shooter’s journal.

www.clickondetroit.com

A lieutenant testifying during Jennifer Crumbley’s trial said the parents of the Oxford High School shooter would be facing murder charges if there was evidence that they had seen the shooter’s journal.

“Do you have any evidence to believe that Mr. Crumbley or Mrs. Crumbley saw the journal?” Smith clarified.

“No, if I had evidence of that, I imagine the charges would be different,” Willis said.

“If you had evidence that they saw the journal, the charges would be different?” Smith asked.

“Yeah, murder, I imagine,” Willis said.

 

[Izzylizzy]

‘We’re letting it all hang out’​

• 12:03 p.m. Thursday

Matthews said she understands what Keast is trying to put on the record. But she said the point of admitting all the evidence is that the two sides are “letting it all hang out.”

“We’re letting it all hang out,” Smith agreed. “I don’t want any redactions because I think it -- Mr. Keast has made it look like we put redactions in there, we’re hiding stuff.”

“I don’t know why we’re talking about this,” Matthews said. “The whole record came in. It is in evidence. It is fair game, OK?”

Keast points to Jennifer Crumbley’s testimony​

• 11:51 a.m. Thursday

Matthews asked when this issue with the Facebook messages is going to come up. Keast said it would be when Jennifer Crumbley takes the stand.

He reiterated he wanted to highlight the pattern of Smith admitting evidence that was previously ruled inadmissible for the trial.

Facebook messages​

• 11:48 a.m. Thursday

Keast pointed to the Facebook messages between Jennifer Crumbley and her husband as one of the pieces of evidence Smith admitted mid-trial as part of that alleged strategy.

He said there are “a number of issues” to explore within those messages and asked for time to go through them adjust the prosecution’s argument accordingly.

“I just want to make sure the people are given the opportunity to review all of those 2,000 pages of messages appropriately before that cross examination begins,” Keast said, speaking of Jennifer Crumbley taking the stand.'


Smith argued that the prosecution moved to admit the entire thread of messages in front of the jury, so she had to agree to avoid making it look like Jennifer Crumbley had something to hide.

“Since that time, I’ve read the whole thing and I’m ready to go with it,” Smith said of the messages. “What he’s saying is he’s not ready to go with it even though he moved to admit it and even though it was days ago that he moved to admit it.”

Keast said he moved for a redacted copy to be admitted. Smith said she replied to them the very next day and said she had no redactions.

Keast outlines issue with defense strategy​

• 11:44 a.m. Thursday

Before they could leave for lunch Keast spoke up that he wanted to put on the record the prosecution’s issue with Smith and the overall defense strategy.

Specifically, he criticized what he suggested was a trend of bringing up inadmissible evidence in the middle of the trial and having it admitted without alerting the prosecution.

“The issue that the people have is that it appears counsel is trying to usurp the court’s order, without notice to the people,” Keast said. “The journal appears to be a pattern of strategy, which is without notice, mid-witness shifting from what the court has already ordered to what counsel chooses to be convenient.

“If that’s trial strategy, then that’s trial strategy, but we have the court’s order, not the defendant’s order, and I don’t believe it is appropriate for any party to usurp the court’s order. I also don’t think it’s appropriate that the people will have to respond off the cuff.

“I want to make sure that our witnesses are prepared. I want to make sure the materials necessary for cross examination are prepared, as well.”

Jury’s lunch arrived during break​

Full updates: Day 6 of trial for mother of Oxford High School shooter (Feb. 1)

The trial for Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the Oxford High School shooter who killed four people, completed its sixth day Thursday, and we had live updates from the proceedings.

www.clickondetroit.com

 

[cottonweaver]

Lieutenant: Crumbley parents would face murder charges if there was evidence they’d seen journal

A lieutenant testifying during Jennifer Crumbley’s trial said the parents of the Oxford High School shooter would be facing murder charges if there was evidence that they had seen the shooter’s journal.

www.clickondetroit.com

A lieutenant testifying during Jennifer Crumbley’s trial said the parents of the Oxford High School shooter would be facing murder charges if there was evidence that they had seen the shooter’s journal.

“Do you have any evidence to believe that Mr. Crumbley or Mrs. Crumbley saw the journal?” Smith clarified.

“No, if I had evidence of that, I imagine the charges would be different,” Willis said.

“If you had evidence that they saw the journal, the charges would be different?” Smith asked.

“Yeah, murder, I imagine,” Willis said.

That was an unintentionally funny moment in Smith's cross.
Her question backfired on her - she hadn't thought through her question before she asked it.
A kind of mic-drop moment. Willis was deadpan in response.

I appreciate that Smith is never dull even though she's irritating me and accept that she's fighting hard for her client but if I was a prosecutor or a juror I would be annoyed. She doesn't appear have to have regard for dignity of the court or the sacrifice of the jurors. Often there are slanging matches when the female prosecutor gets into it because she's already had her fill of Shannon Smith.

That said .... the judge's lack of control. Does anybody know anything about this judge?

 

[Izzylizzy]

McDonald & Keast are about to rest.

 

[Izzylizzy]

That was an unintentionally funny moment in Smith's cross.
Her question backfired on her - she hadn't thought through her question before she asked it.
A kind of mic-drop moment. Willis was deadpan in response.

I appreciate that Smith is never dull even though she's irritating me and accept that she's fighting hard for her client but if I was a prosecutor or a juror I would be annoyed. She doesn't appear have to have regard for dignity of the court or the sacrifice of the jurors. Often there are slanging matches when the female prosecutor gets into it because she's already had her fill of Shannon Smith.

That said .... the judge's lack of control. Does anybody know anything about this judge?

Hon. Cheryl A. Matthews | Oakland County, MI

 

[MrsWatson]

Does anybody know anything about this judge?

Here's an article about her.

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2024/01/22/judge-matthews-profile-oxford-shooting/72256536007/

ETA: some background info on her previous experience

“She (Matthews) is exceedingly professional. She's a very diligent worker. She's very conscientious. And she's a by-the-book judge, so that's her reputation,” said Oakland County Circuit Judge Michael Warren, who was appointed to the bench in 2002.

Matthews was first elected to the trial court in 2004. Before then, she served as the chief of the Oakland County Prosecutor’s Office’s child sexual assault section and was an instructor at the Oakland Police Academy from 1991 to 2004. She received her law degree in 1989 from Fordham University in New York and began her career as an associate at the New York City law firm of Chadbourne & Parke, according to the Oakland County Circuit Court’s website.