GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[Izzylizzy]

I don’t really think it’s productive to argue back and forth about it. From your comments it seems you believe they had indication that he was going to do this and they are guilty as charged. That’s perfectly reasonable.

I’m commenting from my perspective as the evidence comes in.

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

I never once said OR indicated that the parents had an "indication" that their son was going to go on a shooting spree and massacre innocents,

 

[IAMWAN]

Looks like a juror got booted for knowing someone

I agree, school mass shootings or elsewhere are in a league of their own.

Do we know for sure that the juror was dismissed? My feed cut out for a bit so I heard them call someone in and then didn't hear anything again until they were telling them not to go to the cafeteria, or something like that.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Do we know for sure that the juror was dismissed? My feed cut out for a bit so I heard them call someone in and then didn't hear anything again until they were telling them not to go to the cey don't talkafeteria, or something like that.

Same here and heard the judge giving instructions about lunch breaks and making sure they don't talk etc.
She could just be reiterating it to the jury in general.
If someone was booted for bringing to the judges attention that iirc: they work with someone who works with the company that had employed JC.
If a juror was released I'm sure it will be reported.

 

[Izzylizzy]

This could have been posted after the jury was selected?
The jurors include:
cont: at link

Juror 1: White female. Works in human resources. Has two adult children. Her father was a hunter. “I gave up watching all the news in all forms six years ago. I’m pretty uninformed.” Regarding her father’s guns, “I know my dad’s guns were always locked. It was not for the children.”

• Juror 2: White, 26-year-old married male. Says he grew up in a strict, Christian home. He works in sales for the mortgage industry. He took hunter safety classes when he was 16, but is not an avid hunter. His father has a gun and has a concealed-carry permit. The juror said he doesn’t have strong opinions on guns. He doesn’t have cable TV, tries to stay away from social media and despises TikTok.
• Juror 3: White female hairstylist, says she’s familiar with the case, has no issues with guns and can be impartial.
• Juror 4: White female engineer, husband is a lawyer. She said she can be fair and impartial and that “it’s not a good-bad parent decision” the jury will be making in this case, stating: “That’s not why we’re here.” She did note, however, that she no longer goes to movie theaters or shopping malls following a mass shooting in Colorado that shook her sense of security.
• Juror 5: White female, married. Has guns in the house and says they “are locked up.” She has two grown children and recalls taking gun safety classes as a family when the kids were in elementary school. She works for a bank and her husband is in advertising. “I feel like I can be fair,” she said.
• Juror 6: White female. Married and retired compliance specialist. Her husband is a retired meat market owner and her daughter a special education teacher. She was on a jury many years ago, but remembers little to nothing about the case.
• Juror 7: White male doctor who said, “I’ve seen a lot of gun violence.” Owns multiple guns that he stores in a safe. He calls himself a “very strong proponent” of the Second Amendment and goes to shooting ranges about once a month, maybe every two months. He has lost two loved ones to suicide by a gun.'

"Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women'​

Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women

Ten women and seven men will hear the case, then five alternates will be dismissed when deliberations begin.

www.freep.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Tragically, this is not surprising.

Jennifer Crumbley 'didn't look closely' at her son's drawings until after Oxford High School shooting

Jennifer Crumbley told an Oakland County Sheriff's deputy she didn't look closely at her son's drawings until after he shot several students at Oxford High School.

www.fox2detroit.com

She said, prior to the meeting that morning before the shooting, her son had never shown any kind of violent tendencies.

"He said he was sorry that with the loss of a dog, his best friend (left), my mother-in-law passed away. He said he's dealing with a lot of stress and put his thoughts on papers. it's The first time I've ever seen anything like this before," Jennifer said. "He never had any mental issues, like, I've never…he's never exerted any type of angry, never exerting anything, he's always been a mellow, laid back kid. We've always had an open...and he'll talk about stuff. Like I don't get it. I don't get what happened."

 

[Izzylizzy]

Is EC's journal going to be admitted as evidence?

The parents reference the journal numerous times like it was supposed to be EC's go-to for help.

 

[IAMWAN]

Is EC's journal going to be admitted as evidence?

The parents reference the journal numerous times like it was supposed to be EC's go-to for help.

I think I heard defense talk about it today when referencing prosecution redactions in the journals. So it sounds like it?

 

[Izzylizzy]

Questions Smith asked potential jurors during jury selection.
They're described as "jurors" not "potential jurors".
Though I'd be very surprised if Smith chose them.


"Smith asked these questions of the jurors:"

• Do you think kids should never be around a gun, or would you allow it in some circumstances?
• Is it OK to leave a teenager or a 10-year-old home alone?
• Should parents go through their teenager’s text messages, room, emails?
• Do you think parents should know everything their children do, and, if their kids mess up, should the parent be held responsible?
• Do you think your children would be able to hide something from you?

That last question elicited an emotional and candid response from a male juror, who talked about how he and his wife didn’t know their son was researching how to commit suicide on the internet after the drowning death of his friend. Someone at school noticed the boy’s behavior was changing and contacted the parents, who eventually found out their son was depressed and contemplating suicide.

Another juror — a mother with two children — talked about how her daughter was using social media “as a personal diary to the world” until her mother finally looked at her account and discovered the activity. “I just didn’t believe she could be that careless,” the juror said, adding she now checks her daughter’s social media every day. “They know how to get around you.”

Jennifer Crumbley's jury includes several gun owners, mostly women

Ten women and seven men will hear the case, then five alternates will be dismissed when deliberations begin.

www.freep.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think I heard defense talk about it today when referencing prosecution redactions in the journals. So it sounds like it?

I was just reading what I posted about potential jurors or juror answers to one of Smiths's questions on kid's social media.
When red flags went up the parents snooped in their kid's social media, thankfully.
The journal was mentioned by James to the school counselor and dean and JC told the officer about the journal when she was in the back of the cop car so neither parent can deny knowing about it.
Is or will the denial be they never read it?

The few snips I had read from it are written by a demented and deranged person.

 

[Izzylizzy]

'Ethan Crumbley's journal, search history show thorough planning of Oxford High School shooting'​

Ethan Crumbley's journal, search history show thorough planning of Oxford High School shooting

In his journal, Crumbley planned the shooting, discussed his future in prison, shared a glimpse of his mental health and home life, and detailed other violent tendencies.

www.fox2detroit.com

 

[RickshawFan]

EC appeared to be able to compartmentalize his life and plans.

I'm not so sure about that. Running away seems like the obvious solution to the terrible situation at home. He knew enough to know he needed help and wasn't getting it. IMO his parents had him thinking he wasn't worthy of it, and would never get it, so he didn't have the emotional wherewithal to leave. But running away is one of the few things a child can do to get away from a toxic home.

 

[RickshawFan]

Wow an empty bottle of whisky just chillin by EC’s bed! Kinda odd for a 15 yo but maybe he was using it for something else. But now I’m wondering about those texts between James and Jennifer saying he was hungover!

They kept giving him xanax, for gosh sake.

 

[IAMWAN]

They kept giving him xanax, for gosh sake.

I don’t think we know for sure that they did. In their texts, James says he THOUGHT she gave him Xanax but she said it was melatonin.

 

[sleepingmonkey]

I also did a "Wow" when reading about the culture of kids and guns in the area.

Check this out.


THE LAW UPDATED JAN. 26, 2024



https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/oxford-school-shooting-ethan-crumbley-parents.html

WOW

 

[Izzylizzy]

According to Ethan it was his Christmas gift of a gun that re-activated his desire to kill when he already lived in a house with 2 other firearms?
Why?

"Under questioning by Loftin, Anacker agreed that Crumbley told her he had planned the shooting in his head, but never thought he would get that far. But when he got the gun that his parents bought him as an early Christmas present, the idea of doing it kept coming up, she testified."

snip:

"At one point, Anacker noted, Crumbley’s thoughts of committing the shooting started to wane. But when he came home on the eve of the shooting, he had an argument with his parents and his father called him lazy. At that point, Crumbley told Anacker that thoughts of the shooting came back and good feelings he had experienced walking home from school that day were gone."

cont:

Psychiatrist: Crumbley told me he attempted suicide in weeks before shooting | Live updates

A prosecution psychiatrist said that Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley told his parents on his 15th birthday he wanted to see a therapist.

www.freep.com

 

[Sundog]

I don’t agree w the defense. EC was found guilty and sentenced. His statements and mental health that was submitted during his trial should be what she has to go by. IMO

If that is introduced as evidence in JC's trial, then IMO she has a right to confront her accusers. Sadly, in this case her own son, but if his words are used as testimony against her, then as a defendant she has rights to refute them with her own evidence.

JMO, ianal

 

[cujenn81]

I have to call BS on the Dean. To make it seem like his drawings were commonplace and no cause for alarm feels a bit disingenuous. I believe that students draw pictures of guns. BUT I don’t know how a reasonable person could say it’s not alarming when a student draws a picture of a gun with bullets and the words “blood everywhere” and “my life is useless” and “the thoughts won’t stop help me”. That’s just ridiculous.

 

[Cool Cats]

I see it as a reflection of taking extreme caution in cases such as this one that involve parents, loved ones and a community that is devastated by the actions of one of their members.

Usually it means threats were made against the defendant.
Their attorney asserted that they ran for their safety.

Easy to intercept threats though the mail going to the jail. Anyone from the general public can send them a letter, won't necessarily get to them.

2 Cents

 

[cottonweaver]

Wow the shooter’s bedroom looks HECTIC! A complete mess! This is indicative of no adults in the house imo.

and LE believed he was using two of the three bedrooms.
( His original bedroom is chaos, the second is almost as bad. Also a clear contrast with the lounge and the master.)

At 4hrs 36 minutes

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I can't square the chaos with the parents admonitions to him to ensure he paid attention to his grades just before the shooting nor getting an early Christmas present.

 

[cottonweaver]

I have to call BS on the Dean. To make it seem like his drawings were commonplace and no cause for alarm feels a bit disingenuous. I believe that students draw pictures of guns. BUT I don’t know how a reasonable person could say it’s not alarming when a student draws a picture of a gun with bullets and the words “blood everywhere” and “my life is useless” and “the thoughts won’t stop help me”. That’s just ridiculous.

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The lawsuits against the school are still pending aren't they?

I agree that the Dean should have linked the drawings to the earlier incident which the teacher had reported the day before and considered that he had access to guns ( When he was caught looking at bullets and then said "shooting sports are a family hobby" )

and then linked all of the this to the fact that in Michigan, at the time, there were no laws to require either safe storage of firearms or to prohibit minors’ access to firearms. ( Laws changed in MI in 2023)