• #2,501
He predicted that protesters would make people uncomfortable.

Isn't that a little different than making people uncomfortable? I personally don't see him doing that- in my opinion, if the protesters abandoned their plan and just enjoyed the service and went to coffee hour without saying a word, then what? Lemon would have had quieter footage we would have never seen. He planned to go to document the protest. No more, no less. Please, split hairs and tell me what was illegal.

And-is making people uncomfortable automatically interfering with their right to worship/access a clinic? It is perfectly legal to make people uncomfortable with gory pictures and anti-abortion posters as they enter a clinic. There has to be a line between expression and creating discomfort to the point that it prevents access. And whatever that line is, Lemon didn't cross it. He just documented.

If someone came to my church to tell me my pastor has a side gig being an administrator in an agency that just murdered my neighbor, I'd consider it a service that they had informed me. Safe to say, not all worshippers agreed. But not all discomfort is bad, and what is bad is subjective.

MOO
BBM the distinction for me is that. People can protest outside and show their awful gory uncomfortable pictures (which IMO is intimidating enough for a clinic's clientele) but they are prohibited from entering the clinic which is disruptive, a line crossed.

IMO the protesters and I am viewing DL as one of them, crossed that line. Again this is my own opinion. I get that yours differs. You feel Lemon was not a protester. We can and likely will continue to disagree about that.

If he had simply received word shortly before the protesters entered the church that a newsworthy event was about to happen and he drove over there and covered it we might be having a very different conversation. But that isn't what happened. He was there for planning, he was part of the caravan of protesters as they drove there, and he entered the church with them, their presence, including that of DL, interrupted worship.
 
  • #2,502
People were already leaving.
People come and go from church services all the time. That doesn't mean it is over. DL doesn't get to decide when the service is over. Why did he not wait until after the scheduled service time to conduct interviews?
 
  • #2,503
He predicted that protesters would make people uncomfortable.

Isn't that a little different than making people uncomfortable? I personally don't see him doing that- in my opinion, if the protesters abandoned their plan and just enjoyed the service and went to coffee hour without saying a word, then what? Lemon would have had quieter footage we would have never seen. He planned to go to document the protest. No more, no less. Please, split hairs and tell me what was illegal.

And-is making people uncomfortable automatically interfering with their right to worship/access a clinic? It is perfectly legal to make people uncomfortable with gory pictures and anti-abortion posters as they enter a clinic. There has to be a line between expression and creating discomfort to the point that it prevents access. And whatever that line is, Lemon didn't cross it. He just documented.

If someone came to my church to tell me my pastor has a side gig being an administrator in an agency that just murdered my neighbor, I'd consider it a service that they had informed me. Safe to say, not all worshippers agreed. But not all discomfort is bad, and what is bad is subjective.

Edited to add: A charging documents is not evidence. When prosecutors went to judges with the charges and the evidence, judges said, your evidence does not support your charges.

MOO
DL, during the worship service is literally putting a microphone in front of the pastor and asking him questions. The pastor is supposed to be preaching.
 
  • #2,504
BBM the distinction for me is that. People can protest outside and show their awful gory uncomfortable pictures (which IMO is intimidating enough for a clinic's clientele) but they are prohibited from entering the clinic which is disruptive, a line crossed.

IMO the protesters and I am viewing DL as one of them, crossed that line. Again this is my own opinion. I get that yours differs. You feel Lemon was not a protester. We can and likely will continue to disagree about that.

If he had simply received word shortly before the protesters entered the church that a newsworthy event was about to happen and he drove over there and covered it we might be having a very different conversation. But that isn't what happened. He was there for planning, he was part of the caravan of protesters as they drove there, and he entered the church with them, their presence, including that of DL, interrupted worship.
I don't agree, but you did come close to answering the question, which I appreciate.

I think he simply narrated the planning he saw and was reporting on it.

Like any journalist, he had a source.

I don't agree that fore knowledge is planning. Did he give tips, make suggestions, choreograph who sits where?

MOO
 
  • #2,505
IMO that is splitting hairs. The sermon/worship ended prematurely because the protesters interrupted it. So yeah, it was over, but it wasn't meant to be. That doesn't mean Mr. Lemon sat idly by respectfully waiting for service to end. It means he waited for the protesters to interrupt the service and then pounced with his microphone and questions.

How is it splitting hairs? Lemon didn't start interviewing until after the sermon ended, per video footage. So, if we're using PrarieWind's definition of disruption (i.e. that he did so by interviewing), then it's not true that he disrupted the service since it was over by the time he started interviewing.

He may have agreed with the protest and even justified it after the fact, but agreeing with and justifying the protest isn't a crime. He's allowed to do both.

MOO.
 
  • #2,506
He says exactly that about his arrest in this case. HE draws the correlation, not me. that isn't an old quote I have used to discuss this current event. These were his words. About this event. I don't know how to point any more directly than that. when he made that statement it was him directly referencing himself going inside a church with protesters to disrupt and make people uncomfortable.

He referenced the protest, not him going in. Even if that's true, making that statement is not illegal. That's the point. The protestors are the ones who disrupted the service. He showed up to capture it on video.

MOO.
 
  • #2,507
DL, during the worship service is literally putting a microphone in front of the pastor and asking him questions. The pastor is supposed to be preaching.

But the pastor wasn't preaching. Using that logic, then hypothetically, if there was a fire or a shooting or anything newsworthy inside a church, it would be illegal for a journalist to cover it during worship hours. We know that isn't true.

MOO.
 
  • #2,508
He says exactly that about his arrest in this case. HE draws the correlation, not me. that isn't an old quote I have used to discuss this current event. These were his words. About this event. I don't know how to point any more directly than that. when he made that statement it was him directly referencing himself going inside a church with protesters to disrupt and make people uncomfortable.
Well said (each time!).
 
  • #2,509
(snipped for focus) ..... when he made that statement it was him directly referencing himself going inside a church with protesters to disrupt and make people uncomfortable.

He actually was referencing "they". The protesters.


“When you violate people’s due process, when you pull people off the street and you start dragging them and hurting them and not abiding by the Constitution, when you start doing all of that, people get upset and angry,” Lemon said during his livestream.

“That’s the whole point of it. It is to disrupt, it’s to make [people] uncomfortable, and that’s what they’re doing, and that’s what I believe when I say everyone has to be willing to sacrifice something.”

 
  • #2,510
People come and go from church services all the time. That doesn't mean it is over.

But it was over and you know it. Nobody was coming in, all the congregation members were leaving the church.

If, hypothetically, the interruption was, say a fire, not a demonstration, would the journalists be obliged to wait till the official end of service as scheduled, before starting to report and interview?
 
  • #2,511
DL, during the worship service is literally putting a microphone in front of the pastor and asking him questions.
We all know it is not true. Why repeat it?
 
  • #2,512
Apologies if this has been discussed already, but since Pam Bondi has been fired by Trump, is it likely some of these cases will be dropped? An acquittal of Lemon will only result in more bad publicity for Trump.
 
  • #2,513
  • #2,514
  • #2,515
I don't agree, but you did come close to answering the question, which I appreciate.

I think he simply narrated the planning he saw and was reporting on it.

Like any journalist, he had a source.

I don't agree that fore knowledge is planning. Did he give tips, make suggestions, choreograph who sits where?

MOO
He cautioned people/protesters in the car he was riding to the protest in several times not to reveal where they were headed because he was livestreaming. That IMO took him out of the role of observer and into the role of active participant.

I appreciate that we can differ in our views and have a civil discourse. Thank you for that.
 
  • #2,516
He cautioned people/protesters in the car he was riding to the protest in several times not to reveal where they were headed because he was livestreaming. That IMO took him out of the role of observer and into the role of active participant.

I appreciate that we can differ in our views and have a civil discourse. Thank you for that.
To be fair to DL, as a journalist he is not legally obliged to disclose to LE, the government or the public the identity of his sources or confidential information, such as the location of the protest or his awareness of or witnessing of a crime. Though it could be circumvented with subpoenas, search warrants or court orders, according to Freedom Forum.org, in general this privilege is integral in allowing journalists to operate independently while informing members of the public and encouraging sources to speak freely and honestly.

As a result he could still operate in the role of a reporter, recorder and observer disseminating information to the public while withholding such classified details from them as detailed by the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.





 
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  • #2,517
DL, during the worship service is literally putting a microphone in front of the pastor and asking him questions. The pastor is supposed to be preaching.
How long will this misinformation continue? This did not happen. The service was over.
The pastor has a voice, if he wanted to continue with his sermon he could have said that and continued. Even in the face of protesting.
 
  • #2,518
But it was over and you know it.
<snipped for focus>

What we know is that the Pastor is a pastor, and the service isn't over until he tends his flock whether they are trying to get out of a horrible situation in their sanctuary, looking for the children, or hunkered down in the pews. He is trying to do that while Lemon was badgering him with his microphone. He needed to continue to do his work which was to try to make sure his congregants were safe, especially the children. That's what we know. And that is part of the service, interrupted or not. And Lemon stood in the way of that.
 
  • #2,519
if this has been discussed already, but since Pam Bondi has been fired by Trump, is it likely some of these cases will be dropped? An acquittal of Lemon will only result in more bad publicity for Trump.
Lemon and company are being prosecuted by the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ which is led by Harmeet Dhillon and she continues to serve as leader of the Division. She is in charge of prosecuting the case (overall) AFAIK.
 
  • #2,520
<snipped for focus>

What we know is that the Pastor is a pastor, and the service isn't over until he tends his flock whether they are trying to get out of a horrible situation in their sanctuary, looking for the children, or hunkered down in the pews. He is trying to do that while Lemon was badgering him with his microphone. He needed to continue to do his work which was to try to make sure his congregants were safe, especially the children. That's what we know. And that is part of the service, interrupted or not. And Lemon stood in the way of that.
Flock? Flock of sheep??? People can speak out. They have voices. The children were fine. Lemon blocked no one. Let the scales fall from your eyes. jmo <modsnip>
 
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