• #14,361
Cartels aren't lacking in cash. This makes ZERO sense. It makes more sense that someone local to the area targeted Nancy because they knew SG has money they can extort.
You could be right. But if some yard worker owes the cartel and knows he could repay it by helping them kidnap some woman and they could get a few million and he could pay his bill what makes you think he wouldn’t that? After all, cartels are not good up front businessmen. They specialize in dirty work.
 
  • #14,362
Do you have a source for vpn providers being required to keep US user logs? I did a google search and found nothing
Here is a good article summarizing what is publically known.


More than enough to know who you are.

I will speculate in addition to what you can read here that there are additional, non public, agreements with the government.

Here is another one-

 
  • #14,363
About the cartel/organized crime angle: Cartels don't randomly kidnap people and stay silent. They kidnap and murder to send messages. There have been zero public messages from any person or organization. I can't think of a single cartel hit that wasn't a public spectacle. Furthermore, cartels do have a loose code of conduct. Kidnapping an innocent 84 year old woman would go against that.

There has also been zero inclusion of any kind of messaging in the Guthrie videos. No "I want to apologize for my hurtful words to the innocent xxxxx organization for whom I've slandered" or any other public statement that you'd expect.

Besides all that - what's the point? No one in the Guthrie family would be a target for a cartel.

The Epstein angle is also questionable. Of all the names in the files, all the associations that have been made public now - Nancy Guthrie is the one being kidnapped/murdered/silenced?
And you KNOW all this how?
 
  • #14,364
  • #14,365
I wanted to address this, because I am one person who has spoken up about the assumptions around NG's abilities. Everything here, MOO of course. I am nowhere near NG's age (I am actually younger than SG), so this does not come from a place of defensiveness. Disagreement on matters of opinion does not imply bad faith. I think most of us here are doing our best to figure out what happened, based on our own personal experiences, which is about all we can do, given the lack of facts.

First, I completely respect your experience and knowledge as a lawyer. I can only speak for myself, but when I opine on the abilities of NG, I am neither making nor predicting any legal argument. We are so far away from this being in a courtroom that it seems pointless to speculate on, and I don't have the knowledge to do so anyway. I really don't think most of this discussion is about what would make for a sound legal argument at this point; it's about what the scant evidence we do have might suggest about what actually happened, with the goal of finding NG. This thread is about finding her, not building a case against any perp. All the legal stuff will play out later and is a separate question.

If we review all of the available information, I think we'll see that there are some conflicting perspectives on how mobile, active, and able NG is. My personal opinion (nothing more!) is that her frailty may be somewhat played up in the public communications to the ransom note writers and in the press conferences, to engender sympathy and humanize her. In these contexts, I do not think that it would help achieve anyone's goal to emphasize how strong and independent she is, and how she'll be just fine on her own. That's just not the narrative they want to be weaving at this point.

This is not to say that it's not clearly (IMO) true that she has mobility issues, and likely that she's on important medication, is injured easily, etc. But it's also not to say that she doesn't regularly move herself around town without assistance, drive a car, and generally lead an active life. These things can both be true.

The bottom line of my frustration with some of the discourse here is that it is framed as "because she is a frail old lady, it's simply impossible that she did X, and therefore the explanation must be Y." As outsiders, we do not know definitively what she can and can't do. We can talk all day about what we might consider reasonable for someone in a similar condition, but 1) we don't have a ton of details about what her condition actually is — just snippets of incomplete information, and 2) what might be reasonable for other people is not really conclusive evidence of what happened here.

I'm totally fine with "hey, given what we know about NG's age and condition, this scenario seems unlikely to me." I'm less ok with "no one in NG's age and condition could have done that, so obviously this is what happened." Maybe it seems like a subtle distinction, but I guess I'm just looking for some nuance, some acknowledgement that we're dealing with an individual human being rather than an abstract average statistic, and an understanding that we're all doing our best here with very limited information.

None of us truly know what happened, and whether we like it or not, the bits and pieces of information we have do not point in a single direction. It's not bad faith to share our own opinions based on the combination of life experience and the information we do have.
I appreciate your reasoned response! I agree this isn't a courtroom; and, I'm not trying to be argumentative - am responding to others' who have strongly shot down my original post (with fact patterns which are NOT the same or really even similar to what I was pointing out). This is a forum and I take those responses fairly, if they are given fairly! I'll probably stop weighing in on this after this post because I think it's not really worth it, but just to respond, nowhere in any of my posts (or anyone else's that I've seen - I haven't read every post) have I said that given her age and condition, NG shouldn't have done something or that she should have been taken care of a certain way. It's an important distinction that I agree with you on and that I have made which is why, with all due respect, I think saying otherwise is possibly reading into and projecting onto me things I have not said. And why I said that it doesn't feel like people are engaging the question "with good faith". All of my responses have been based on what I think likely or not given her condition and my personal knowledge of similar people. I stand by my point that people not in similar condition are largely irrelevant and feel like false claims of "agism". To which I imagine such folks, fortunately, haven't had an elderly loved one who needs serious care yet.
 
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  • #14,366
I’ve mentioned that I live in NG’s neighborhood. Several people here as well as folks I know who live close to main roads, even outside of this neighborhood, had LE visits over the weekend. They want footage from any cameras facing these main roads: Oracle road and 1st Ave are the two I can personally confirm.
Out of sheer curiosity, is it local sheriffs or FBI making visits or both? I'm just curious who is doing what at this point of this joint investigation
 
  • #14,367
Do you have a source for vpn providers being required to keep US user logs? I did a google search and found nothing
The general stance of VPN providers has shifted slightly but it appears to be the case from one of the leading VPNs that logs will be kept if a law enforcement agency asks in advance about a specific user.

“We are 100% committed to our zero-logs policy – to ensure users’ ultimate privacy and security, we never log their activity unless ordered by a court in an appropriate, legal way,” the blog post now reads.
LE hasn't, to my knowledge, stated that a VPN was used, alone or in conjunction with another service. It could have been an online anonymizer, a VPN, or a combination of both. It's possible to daisy-chain these services internationally. I won't link to anonymizers but plenty exist online and are easily found.
 
  • #14,368
We need more info.
 
  • #14,369
I'm sorry, but I just have to strongly disagree (MY OPINION) that you need to be a professional hacker or group to hide your identity better than using an mainstream western VPN service. It might not be something that most people here know how to do, but it also is really not difficult. I've already written one too-long post going through some possibilities, and I don't really feel like re-writing it, but I will say that in my strongly based personal opinion and experience, it is a mistake to assume that someone needs to be ultra-sophisticated or a professional hacker to successfully hide from US authorities online (and especially if we define "hiding" not as hiding forever, but hiding in such a way that it can take days or weeks to track them down, rather than just making a call to ExpressVPN or whatever).
I agree...but I find it hard to square (if we're looking at AG and SIL) that they would be dumb enough to make up a fake church call (easily verifiable) and also savvy enough to send this type of ransom note.
 
  • #14,370
Tucson is in no way, shape or form controlled by cartels. This information is wholly and egregiously false. I’ve lived here for three decades. It is wrong to spread this false information.
THANK YOU!!!
 
  • #14,371
Thank you for sharing!

I really am surprised the perp has gotten so lucky thus far. It seems they definitely would've been caught on some of those main road cameras.
They may very well have been.
 
  • #14,372
Just now, I took a photo of a televised CNN story on the Guthrie disappearance: This is my photo.
[image removed by me]
Please note that there is no mention of the “11:00 am phone call from church member”
This is basically just a reformatting (with the a couple of events omitted) from the same timeline diagram that LE presented at the Thursday press conference. I don't think it adds any new verification or info. It's just MSM reporting what they were told by LE on Thursday, which is what we've been discussing — the initial press conference mentioned the church visit. The second press conference on Thursday did not. The criminal complaint against the hoax ransom note on the same day (Thursday) did. Conclusion: we still don't know if it happened, and if it did, why the sheriff left it off of the Thursday timeline, and if that's significant or not.

Sources:

Thursday press conference (timestamp link to video showing the official timeline):

Criminal complaint from Thursday mentioning the church call: https://www.justice.gov/usao-az/media/1426976/dl?inline

Better image of the sheriff timeline:

1770654161845.webp
 
  • #14,373
Absolutely not the case with many families. Every family is different, of course. Most crimes I follow revolve around money. Money has a powerful way of coming in-between people - sometimes even the closest people.

Within my own family - I am financially in a much better place than my siblings. With that said I don't feel it is my responsibility to pay their bills/debts even though I easily could. Once one starts - when does it end if ever is my concern. Who knows about SG and what she would do, but money can absolutely cause rifts in families whether it is a little money or a lot.

Also, SG is married with kids. My husband and I have his side and my side asking for money. We used to be more generous until more money was expected and resentment started to grow. There are a lot of many different issues that can arise when loaning money to family or even giving money to family. All sorts of issues can develop.

Moo.
again as with so much we don't know what if any discussion of money there has been. Maybe for example if AG and husband have asked for money consistently over the years and SG or NG has helped them and finally started saying no. WE don't know if they have habits that require large sums of cash. I think no matter who the captor is this is about money. As said money can really cause stress and more in families especially when you have one sibling with so much more than others.
 
  • #14,374
This is important because this contradicts the ‘official timeline’. The FBI must release an updated ‘official timeline’. Unbelievably we have a representative from the FBI giving swore testimony in an Arizona Federal Court that destroy’s the ‘official timeline’.

This misleads the credibility of the investigation. It does not instill confidence in the veracity of the information released by the FBI. I would categorize it as sloppy.

The FBI needs to clarify this but I won’t hold my breath.

View attachment 642939
Alleged Church lady phone call was Feb 1. Calella phone call Feb 4 - they are not one and the same.
 
  • #14,375
I keep going to back to language of the video posted on SG's instagram on Saturday. She says "This is the only way we will have peace, this is very valuable to us - and we will pay." I just feel like the wording is so strange. I would think she would say "she is very valuable to us" if she were still alive. (I very much hope that she is). JMO
 
  • #14,376
You could be right. But if some yard worker owes the cartel and knows he could repay it by helping them kidnap some woman and they could get a few million and he could pay his bill what makes you think he wouldn’t that? After all, cartels are not good up front businessmen. They specialize in dirty work.
Sorry, but this train of thought reeks of racism, I won't entertain it.
 
  • #14,377
THERE WAS NO BAR VISIT AND THERE WAS NO SPUTUM IN THE BLOOD.THOSE WERE SPECULATIONS BY POSTERS OR UNINFORMED AND UNCORROBORATED MUSINGS BY POSTERS. THE SHERIFF MENTIONED THE CALL FROM THE CHURCH LADY ONCE. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DEBUNKED. IF SOMEONE CAN ABSOLITELY VERIFY A BAR VISIT, A PLACE WHERE IT WAS VERIFIED THAT THERE WAS SPUTUM IN THE BLOOD OR THAT THERE WAS NO CHURCH LADY, PLEASE POST IT HERE AS THIS IS GETTING CRAZY. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN POSTER'S OPINIONS ARE TAKEN AS FACTS. SOMEONE OPINED THAT IF SHE WAS BLEEDING FROM THE MOUTH THE BLOOD SPOTS WOULD CONTAIN SPUTUM. NOW SUDDENLY , THIS IS THE NEW BENCHMARK..
If the bar visit thing is based off my theory - then it was made clear is was my thoughts and was an example of the timeline making some sense. If the bar visit is traced to another source - then just know that my mentioning of it was purely a theory based on the timeline and under my assumption that AG may not be involved and could have been lied to about someone's whereabouts
 
  • #14,378
I agree...but I find it hard to square (if we're looking at AG and SIL) that they would be dumb enough to make up a fake church call (easily verifiable) and also savvy enough to send this type of ransom note.
My opinion only:

1. They may have assumed being family that the church call would be accepted without question or checking by LE. Have seen it happen in other cases.

2. Ransom note may not be connected, or have been done for pay by an accomplice.
JMO!
 
  • #14,379
Hear me out on this. My opinion is that the ransom and ransom person is real. However, I don't feel I'm ever correct like Mass Guy...LOL

But taking a step back....lets go with what we DO KNOW. We know this has been flip flopping between family involvement and a ransomer. (is that even a word...LOL)

But what has happened in the last few days to shift that focus. I believe the focus has in fact shifted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Neighbor says hey check the roof, looks too new to me. LE goes up there checks the roof and finds the camera. There is no reporting about what LE found on that camera if anything. BUT...what if they did? Could that explain the shift back onto the family by the sheriff's office? The Sheriff was attending a NCAA game Friday night. Could he be of the mindset--yeah we know what happened here now--we just need to prove it. Could explain a lot of things.
Where again can I read about camera on the roof. I have only read front ring camera is gone. Thank you
 
  • #14,380
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