New member, and a theory

  • #81
I dont think you are wrong, but its not a matter of semantics because the meaning of a garrote is fixed, and allegedly originates in spain. <snip>

Ligature strangulation, and garotte strangulation are both strangulation, only the chosen technique differs..

UKGuy, I think we are on the same page with this and I don't mind being wrong so don't worry about that, please. Ligature strangulation is the method of death with a knotted device and we agree. In my mind, however, it is critical if we are to use that piece of data to determine something about the killer, whether staged or truly done with the intent to kill, that the method be properly identified. Someone who strangles says something about the killer. Someone who strangles by pulling a knotted rope around a throat is a bit different than someone who uses a a tightening device to strangle (the device being a stick inserted into a rope and using that stick to tighten the rope).

Hope that makes sense. Communications on message board is hard work. :waitasec:

By the way, I do think it was staged, for what that's worth and I appreciate your thoughtful response.

Edited to add: I asked my husband what he thinks of when he thinks of a garrotte. He replied he would think of a piece of metal wrapped around the neck, criss-crossing at a point on the metal, then tightened by pushing or pulling on the ends of the metal.
 
  • #82
In my mind, however, it is critical if we are to use that piece of data to determine something about the killer, whether staged or truly done with the intent to kill, that the method be properly identified. Someone who strangles says something about the killer. Someone who strangles by pulling a knotted rope around a throat is a bit different than someone who uses a a tightening device to strangle (the device being a stick inserted into a rope used to tighten the rope).

Hope that makes sense. Communications on message board is hard work. :waitasec:

By the way, I do think it was staged, for what that's worth and I appreciate your thoughtful response.


I believe the garot in this staging was meant to lead people to think it was sexual game gone wrong rather than simply a murder by strangualtion.
 
  • #83
Albert, I had read on Friday that Burke said his father came into the room. It stuck with me. Why would he do this. Why would he chance waking Burke if he were in the middle of a stage with Patsy? He would not do that. He would lie to the police and say I checked Burke but actually leave him alone. INSTEAD HE DOES CHECK ON HIM and wakes him. I can only conclude with this dangerous a situation that John is not involved YET!!!!

I think he is not quite sure, but of course believes outwardly that she is kidnapped and he runs to check on Burke and screams to call the police. Patsy said she asked him that twice and he says yes - yes. He is reading the note - it has to click that this looks like Patsy's writing somewhere in his brain. I do not know his thoughts at this moment. I just feel he is not involved.

Now, whether or not he found JonBenet at 11:00 as he told Steward Long is another story. I think he is protecting Patsy and has rationalized his thinking to go along. He may not even think about any other reason. I just do not feel he is involved.

Lets not forget all of the fibers are Patsys that are downstairs. The fibers from john's sweater could be transference by JonBenet herself. He was with her all day. He was playing on the floor with her and Fleet and Daphne and his fibers got on her clothes. She goes to the bathroom and transfers them. It is possible.

she was wiped down with it though,according to the fiber evidence.also remember PR's 'I screamed and JR screamed when he came up from the basement' comment.I do think JR was in on it bf the 911 call.If not then he would have made the call on his cell,he would have told LE to lay low,he would have asked for LHP's no. and gave her a call or insist LE did,since PR pointed her out.He and PR didn't comfort each other,JR didn't search for JB,didn't pick up the money,etc,there's just too much that says he knew..and he got BR out of the house without asking if he heard or saw anything..etc.I think BR was told what to say to the GJ,just as he did with the JB was asleep story.JMO.
 
  • #84
He may have put 2 and 2 together before the 911 call was made.

I think in an actual emergency, John makes the 911 call. I think in an actual emergency, John is front and center with the police. I think in a crime where they are equally involved, John insulates and isolates Patsy immediately because he knew the state she was in. The first two John would have done to protect his family and the last one he would have done to protect himself. None of those three things happened that morning.

he could have also been hiding behind Patsy.Patsy writes the RN,Patsy makes the phone call,then JR is in a rush to be seen on CNN,and he seems to hide behind her there,too,letting her do most of the talking,only cutting in when necessary.he's got something to hide,IMO.
 
  • #85
I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that JR was involved, at the very least, in the cover up, if not in the actual crime.

Here's a few:

-shirt fibers found on JBR
-RN which attempts to implicate disgruntled former Access Graphics employees
-behavior concerning the broken basement window
-instructions to pilot early, right after JBR's body was found
-'checking' on BR that doesn't involve actually going into the room to make sure the "intruder" isn't hiding in there (I mean, honestly. Your little girl is missing and you think she's been kidnapped, so you.....peek in on your son, flip the lights on quickly to make sure he's in there, flip them back off again, and leave? You don't get him out of there, keep him with you, search the room, beg him to try to remember anything unusual he's heard during the night, etc.? The whole 'flip the lights on and off again' sounds like what you do when you want to see if a child's still sleeping, not that he hasn't been kidnapped. I mean, for all the R's knew that morning, the "kidnapper" might have injured or killed BR as he slept!!!)
-finding the body
-the 'slip up' to S. Long over the time he found the body
-the duct tape which FW picked up curiously--could it be because he didn't see JR actually pull it off, but noticed that it fell to the ground as soon as JR picked JBR up?
-the knot tied on the "garrote"
-allowing his obviously hysterical wife to call 911 when he was clearly the calmer person and should have taken charge
-involvement of lawyers right away

and I would add, "the size 12 underwear" because I can't see how any woman would ever believe that anyone would buy the idea that a little girl would be happy wearing underwear that big--it just seems to have a man's touch, there.

Now, what evidence is there against PR?

-sweater fibers on JBR, the paint tray, and the rope used to make the "garrote"
-the use of the paintbrush in the "garrote"
-the RN (though I still can't get how a journalism major would use the wrong insertion caret!)
-her behavior in not running when she heard JR scream for an ambulance
-hanging up on the 911 call
-calling over friends, looking at photo books, generally acting like a person in mourning before JBR was even found
-ponytails (?) If these were added after the crime PR probably added them

If I've missed anything please add!

Now, I haven't included their many slip-ups, misstatements, and outright lies to LE and others; but I think they've both done this so consistently it would be hard to say that one or the other was the more guilty of this.

But I don't see that it's very likely that JR knew nothing of the crime till after he'd found JBR. In fact, it's very unlikely.

Why?

As CEO of a major corporation, JR knew that there were procedures that would automatically be triggered by a kidnapping. None of those procedures were put into place on Dec. 26; nor, as far as anyone knows or has been willing to state, did JR ever request that they be!

But if he'd read that note and thought even for a minute that this was a bona fide kidnapping, JR would have demanded that these procedures be initiated. Even if he'd 'subconsciously' recognized PR's handwriting, he would have been aware that Access Graphics would be involved as a matter of security, especially given the veiled and open threats against JR in the RN.

JR knew that his daughter was dead before morning on the 26th. He knew.
:clap::clap::clap:

well-said,there is just no way in heck he didn't already know,no way,IMO.Only thing I would add is that JR lied about her wrist ligatures being tight..he said they were tied tightly and they weren't.IMO, he lied b/c about that b/c they had a previous plan to get her out of the house(per the RN line..'you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel') ,and JR restaged it in an attempt to now hide the vaginal wound,per the wiping her down,redressing her and covering her w the blanket,since she would now be found indoors and he didn't want to implicate himself.He lied about the wrist ligatures b/c he FORGOT to change them to where it no longer looked like a sexual staging.
I'll also repost the Merrick interview;JM himself and I believe Thomas also knew that JR was behind that note..I can only reason that he didn't say anything in order to not reveal all of the evidence.
Good thoughts re: checking on BR as well.they wanted to make sure that LE saw he was still in bed,IMO.
 
  • #86
:clap::clap::clap:

well-said,there is just no way in heck he didn't already know,no way,IMO.Only thing I would add is that JR lied about her wrist ligatures being tight..he said they were tied tightly and they weren't.IMO, he lied b/c about that b/c they had a previous plan to get her out of the hous e(per the RN line..'you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel') ,and JR restaged it in an attempt to now hide the vaginal wound,per the wiping her down,redressing her and covering her w the blanket,since she would now be found indoors and he didn't want to implicate himself.He lied about the wrist ligatures b/c he FORGOT to change them to where it no longer looked like a sexual staging.
I'll also repost the Merrick interview;JM himself and I believe Thomas also knew that JR was behind that note..I can only reason that he didn't say anything in order to not reveal all of the evidence.
Also, I need more on this. Gotta have it.

oHHHHHH NO, not again.

Tell me what you think about Burke telling the Grand Jury that his father came into his room, turned on the lights and ran out.
 
  • #87
Also, I need more on this. Gotta have it. [/b]

oHHHHHH NO, not again.

Tell me what you think about Burke telling the Grand Jury that his father came into his room, turned on the lights and ran out.

I think if it had been a real KN,JR would have woke BR up,asked him if he'd saw or heard anything during the night,checked his room for anyone who might still be there..closet,under the bed,etc...kept BR right by his side,and not let him out of his site,at least until LE could get there.he also would have called the White's and asked about him,and would have wanted BR to have a police escort and be under watch by police.
JR also would have organized a search party,searched outside the house,walked around the house,the streets..etc..driven around..since they had told no one to lay low.He also would have used the friends to his advantage in helping get JB back,as they could have helped him search as well.
 
  • #88
http://www.acandyrose.com/20060830B...JeffMerrick.htm

I don't see how Thomas could have kept asking JM why JR kept pointing him out,(all the while looking at the RN and knowing what it said),and not know that JR was in on it.I think it's just like PR says in DOI about the liturgy she and JR wrote ...they each wrote a copy,then merged the two into one.It was another one of her confessions,IMO.
Remember the first thing JR said to LA, when reading the link: this had to be an inside job.And JR kept pointing the finger at JM after the murder.
 
  • #89
http://www.acandyrose.com/20060830B...JeffMerrick.htm

I don't see how Thomas could have kept asking JM why JR kept pointing him out,(all the while looking at the RN and knowing what it said),and not know that JR was in on it.I think it's just like PR says in DOI about the liturgy she and JR wrote ...they each wrote a copy,then merged the two into one.It was another one of her confessions,IMO.
Remember the first thing JR said to LA, when reading the link: this had to be an inside job.And JR kept pointing the finger at JM after the murder.

I understand everything you are saying and yes it does point to John aiding.

Now, do you think John told Burke what to say to the Grand Jury?
 
  • #90
I don't know,it could have been like Dru said,he was looking in to see if he was still asleep,but BR did get a copy of the 911 call...meaning,he was on it.I just wonder how he explained that one.At some point he must have had to admit he was indeed up during that time.
We know BR was told to lie,or rather,change his story,as they probably put it to him,re: JB being asleep.So why wouldn't he have been told to lie about other things as well?
As well as I thought there were other instances talked about of ppl coming into his room..wasn't it said PR come in and said 'o my gosh,o my gosh',and 'where's my baby,where's my baby'?And I think JR peeked in on BR with an officer after they arrived,w BR later saying he was pretending to be asleep.I don't recall all what all was talked about,can someone help w that? thx.
As far as JR finding JB at 11 am,I think he got mixed up and that was the time when he went down and moved the body to be 'found' be LE...but he couldn't say that to JAR of course.He just got confused,IMO.I think JB was further back in the WC and he moved her up a bit,and that's why he said he spotted her as soon as he looked into the room..which we know wasn't possible,and that's maybe why FW didn't see her?
anyway,these are just a few thoughts,I don't expect everyone to agree,I don't have one lone theory myself,other than a RDI,I'm sure of,and some things are for certain-JB was up and awake and had pineapple after getting home,PR penned the RN,and I suspect JR helped with that and the staging.As to who did exactly what and why,and was there any past sexual abuse..I'm still undecided.I do think she was corporally cleaned though.
 
  • #91
I don't know,it could have been like Dru said,he was looking in to see if he was still asleep,but BR did get a copy of the 911 call...meaning,he was on it.I just wonder how he explained that one.At some point he must have had to admit he was indeed up during that time.
We know BR was told to lie,or rather,change his story,as they probably put it to him,re: JB being asleep.So why wouldn't he have been told to lie about other things as well?
As well as I thought there were other instances talked about of ppl coming into his room..wasn't it said PR come in and said 'o my gosh,o my gosh',and 'where's my baby,where's my baby'?And I think JR peeked in on BR with an officer after they arrived,w BR later saying he was pretending to be asleep.I don't recall all what all was talked about,can someone help w that? thx.
As far as JR finding JB at 11 am,I think he got mixed up and that was the time when he went down and moved the body to be 'found' be LE...but he couldn't say that to JAR of course.He just got confused,IMO.I think JB was further back in the WC and he moved her up a bit,and that's why he said he spotted her as soon as he looked into the room..which we know wasn't possible,and that's maybe why FW didn't see her?
anyway,these are just a few thoughts,I don't expect everyone to agree,I don't have one lone theory myself,other than a RDI,I'm sure of,and some things are for certain-JB was up and awake and had pineapple after getting home,PR penned the RN,and I suspect JR helped with that and the staging.As to who did exactly what and why,and was there any past sexual abuse..I'm still undecided.I do think she was corporally cleaned though.


What is John going to say to Burke along the lines of lying? Look Burke your mother and I had nothing to do with this crime whatsoever, but our lawyers tell us that the police think we did it and they are going to try to put us in jail. So we have to tell them that JonBenet was asleep when we came home and also that I woke you up in the morning looking for you?

That is about what had to have happened then.
 
  • #92
I believe the garot in this staging was meant to lead people to think it was sexual game gone wrong rather than simply a murder by strangualtion.

I'd agree that is a good possibility. This strangulation thing is the one thing I can not resolve satisfactorily in my mind. I don't see how either parent could have staged this part unless they believed she was dead when they did it. The autopsy is so inconclusive about which came first and since the physician makes it sound like whoever did the ligature strangulation helped cause the death, in whole or in part with associated head wounds. That would make the strangulation a voluntary act in the eyes of the law.

My personal thought is the head wound was involuntary yet reckless. The strangulation wasn't. I also think JonBenet would have died from the head wound anyway.

Pheww ... what a burden for the killer to live with.
 
  • #93
I'd agree that is a good possibility. This strangulation thing is the one thing I can not resolve satisfactorily in my mind. I don't see how either parent could have staged this part unless they believed she was dead when they did it. The autopsy is so inconclusive about which came first and since the physician makes it sound like whoever did the ligature strangulation helped cause the death, in whole or in part with associated head wounds. That would make the strangulation a voluntary act in the eyes of the law.

My personal thought is the head wound was involuntary yet reckless. The strangulation wasn't. I also think JonBenet would have died from the head wound anyway.

Pheww ... what a burden for the killer to live with.

And I think the way she lived with it is she believes it was an accident and unintentional.
 
  • #94
And I think the way she lived with it is she believes it was an accident and unintentional.

Solace, I agree. I'm going to take this a step farther and mention you've said elsewhere that your thought is Patsy jerked JonBenet by the collar of her red turtleneck, twisting the collar in the process, then manhandled JonBenet into the bathroom for clean-up. Is that, basically, your belief (I don't want to put words in your mouth)? If so, that would certainly explain why the strangulation and head wound could be justified in Patsy's mind as accidental. The strangulation wasn't by the nylon cord but by a prior injury as suggested above, and the nylon cord was the cover-up for the strangulation -- right?

Things are getting clearer. Thanks for the insight. I think your conclusions, along with what the public knows of the evidence, has finally given me reason to decide I am no longer a fence sitter.
 
  • #95
UKGuy, I think we are on the same page with this and I don't mind being wrong so don't worry about that, please. Ligature strangulation is the method of death with a knotted device and we agree. In my mind, however, it is critical if we are to use that piece of data to determine something about the killer, whether staged or truly done with the intent to kill, that the method be properly identified. Someone who strangles says something about the killer. Someone who strangles by pulling a knotted rope around a throat is a bit different than someone who uses a a tightening device to strangle (the device being a stick inserted into a rope and using that stick to tighten the rope).

Hope that makes sense. Communications on message board is hard work. :waitasec:

By the way, I do think it was staged, for what that's worth and I appreciate your thoughtful response.

Edited to add: I asked my husband what he thinks of when he thinks of a garrotte. He replied he would think of a piece of metal wrapped around the neck, criss-crossing at a point on the metal, then tightened by pushing or pulling on the ends of the metal.

BOESP,
Hope that makes sense.
Sure it makes sense. The crime-scene down in the wine-cellar is wholly staged, including possibly, even her head injury!

A small caveat, if you know that some evidence has been staged then you cannot use it to generate conclusions about the offender, not without making mistakes anyway.

So its not very constructive to get hung up on the garrote. Which is simply staging.

The autopsy itemises JonBenet's injuries e.g. a ligature strangulation and her head fracture, both of which may have contributed towards her final cause of death which was hypoxia by asphyxiation, or an absence of oxygen.

One thing to note is that her vaginal injury did not contribute towards her death, and is not staged with this in mind.

Consider JonBenet's neck injuries, she has a near perfect circumferential furrow, and beneath this abrasions that are not circumferential, its probably safe to speculate that neither the nylon cord or the garrote caused these abrasions, so was she manually strangled?

Its possible that the garrote has been applied to mask the manual strangulation, and her sexual assault to mask prior sexual activity?

So its possible that JonBenet was manually strangled first, then whacked on the head, or both occurred together, and the rest is staging to hide this.

If you consider the amount of violence inflicted upon JonBenet, and the total absence of any medical assistance, then its safe to assume that someone wanted JonBenet dead, if you then add in the staging, of which there was probably more than one, then imo it all points to an intentional homicide that is intended to silence the victim, since JonBenet posed no physical threat to anyone.

You can say Patsy did it, or John did it, even that Burke did it, but they all certainly colluded with each other after JonBenet's death to synchronise their individual version of events that night.

If you think it is Patsy you have to explain why she would kill her own daughter and deny her medical assistance, similar applies to John, and why they should both defend and assist each other after her death?

No other 6-year old girl has died in such a manner in the USofA, so I doubt very much if she died an accidental death!


.
 
  • #96
What is John going to say to Burke along the lines of lying? Look Burke your mother and I had nothing to do with this crime whatsoever, but our lawyers tell us that the police think we did it and they are going to try to put us in jail. So we have to tell them that JonBenet was asleep when we came home and also that I woke you up in the morning looking for you?

That is about what had to have happened then.

I think the lawyers sat them down and got all 3 on the same page,yes.Probably rehearsing it over and over again.At one point when BR is being q'd by LE in one of his interviews,he asks about the watch the questioner was wearing.I think he was told to do that if he didn't know what the right answer should be.
 
  • #97
There was a poster here a while ago who brought some information up that I thought was very interesting in relation the overlarge underwear. This person had said that those size 12/14s had been meant for Jenny, Patsy's niece, who wore that size. In the basement was a box that partially unwrapped Christmas gifts in it...perhaps those underwear had been chosen to be the ones JB was redressed in because they were brand new, with no evidence of the Rs on them, and perhaps because they were in the basement, in the box, and were easy to get to.

I'm pretty much as convinced as I can be without solid proof that the package of underwear those on JB had come from was in that box, wrapped and ready to send, only to be unwrapped and used by the redresser...but it really makes sense, and answers why those undies might on her.
And fibers from the shirt John Ramsey had been wearing to the Whites' Christmas party were found in this underweaer. This points to him being involved in the staging too.
 
  • #98
And fibers from the shirt John Ramsey had been wearing to the Whites' Christmas party were found in this underweaer. This points to him being involved in the staging too. jmo


rashomon,

Particularly if JonBenet never wore the size-12's to the White's.



.
 
  • #99
BOESP,

Sure it makes sense. The crime-scene down in the wine-cellar is wholly staged, including possibly, even her head injury!

A small caveat, if you know that some evidence has been staged then you cannot use it to generate conclusions about the offender, not without making mistakes anyway.

So its not very constructive to get hung up on the garrote. Which is simply staging.

The autopsy itemises JonBenet's injuries e.g. a ligature strangulation and her head fracture, both of which may have contributed towards her final cause of death which was hypoxia by asphyxiation, or an absence of oxygen.

One thing to note is that her vaginal injury did not contribute towards her death, and is not staged with this in mind.

Consider JonBenet's neck injuries, she has a near perfect circumferential furrow, and beneath this abrasions that are not circumferential, its probably safe to speculate that neither the nylon cord or the garrote caused these abrasions, so was she manually strangled?

Its possible that the garrote has been applied to mask the manual strangulation, and her sexual assault to mask prior sexual activity?

So its possible that JonBenet was manually strangled first, then whacked on the head, or both occurred together, and the rest is staging to hide this.

If you consider the amount of violence inflicted upon JonBenet, and the total absence of any medical assistance, then its safe to assume that someone wanted JonBenet dead, if you then add in the staging, of which there was probably more than one, then imo it all points to an intentional homicide that is intended to silence the victim, since JonBenet posed no physical threat to anyone.

You can say Patsy did it, or John did it, even that Burke did it, but they all certainly colluded with each other after JonBenet's death to synchronise their individual version of events that night.

If you think it is Patsy you have to explain why she would kill her own daughter and deny her medical assistance, similar applies to John, and why they should both defend and assist each other after her death?

No other 6-year old girl has died in such a manner in the USofA, so I doubt very much if she died an accidental death!


.

UKGuy, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think JonBenet's death was intentional, therefore, I don't think there is an explanation to make for why Patsy, John, or anyone else would do such a purposeful thing and withhold medical care.

Maybe Solace will get a chance to post his/her theories of what happened as I have seen them elsewhere. It fits the injuries and the evidence without any convoluted explanations. It also explains a lot of things that happened afterwards. As I said, the main hold-up in my thought process was understanding the strangulation part and thanks to Solace, it became very clear what happened.

I do appreciate your response and have studied and considered this death for a long time. I'm now satisfied in my mind about what happened, how, and why.
 
  • #100
I believe the garot in this staging was meant to lead people to think it was sexual game gone wrong rather than simply a murder by strangualtion.

I think you are correct, Rino!
 

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