NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[squareandrabbet]

Not for a minute do I believe that any city in the US thinks killing the homeless or mentally ill is ever a "choice." Our city, state and federal governments (taxpayer funded) have spent billions of dollars trying to protect the homeless, especially if they are military veterans suffering with PTSD. Our Veteran's Affairs dept. has expanded programs to address their medical needs, including mental health and provided housing. None of that has any relevance to this case, imo.

Penny and other witnesses reacted to JN's aggressive and threatening behavior raged directly at them. They had no way of knowing the cause of it nor did it matter. They followed common practices in the US so that JN couldn't hurt himself or them: several called 911, notified the conductor, adult men moved in to restrain JN until police arrived.

It is unfortunate that JN died in the process but not for a second do I believe the rhetoric that JN was "targeted" because of his race, mental illness or homelessness.

JMO

IMO, I agree he was 'targeted' because he appeared scary and intimidating; and quite possibly beyond reason.

I mean, how long has 'angry yelling man doffs jacket' been pop-culture language/cliché for “this man is ready to throw down'?

 

[Ontario Mom]

IMO, I agree he was 'targeted' because he appeared scary and intimidating; and quite possibly beyond reason.

I mean, how long has 'angry yelling man doffs jacket' been pop-culture language/cliché for “this man is ready to throw down'?

For as long as I can remember, and I'm nearly 60. You take your jacket off and throw it to the floor while angrily screaming about stuff, that's 100% you saying "bring it on". I thought everyone knew that?

 

[squareandrabbet]

For as long as I can remember, and I'm nearly 60. You take your jacket off and throw it to the floor while angrily screaming about stuff, that's 100% you saying "bring it on". I thought everyone knew that?

I feel like it may date back to horse and buggy days… the principle being you don’t want to tear and or bloody it.

 

[MyBelle]

Good point. I'm not exactly sure how that works.
Fundraised money is for both his legal defense and to be put toward any civil suits, so I read that to mean if he were sued for 2 million (just using that as an example), that money will come from the funds raised. But, I could be completely wrong about that.

My take is that the mention of civil lawsuits is because, if Penny isn't indicted, he might sue for wrongful arrest and defamation.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

My take is that the mention of civil lawsuits is because, if Penny isn't indicted, he might sue for wrongful arrest and defamation.

JMO

Well, I hadn't even thought of that. I guess that's possible too.

jmo

 

[AngTxGal]

Had Penny called 911, LE could have been at the next station. EMTs have to wait that long for LE to arrive in many cases. And they do so knowing that the person could be violent in the interim. Penny had other options than choking Mr Jordan Neely to death.

JMO

So no one called 911?
Everyone simply watched?

 

[Ontario Mom]

So no one called 911?
Everyone simply watched?

MSM has reported at least 5 calls went out to 911.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

So no one called 911?
Everyone simply watched?

Some people called 911, its unclear if any called before the chokehold at this point. We know some called as a result of the chokehold, citing a fight, but it's not confirmed, as far as I know, if anyone called just to report JN behaviour, but there wasn't a big window of time in between to be fair. JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

Agree with most…

What bothers me is that the attitude to the homeless varies in different parts of the country. You can mention LA, me, Seattle or Boston, and NYC’s common mentality has changed a lot after 9-11.

But too often I meet people holding homeless responsible for own problems. People are probably unafraid to say what they do because such mentality is the prevailing norm for their communities. Homeless are treated differently in different places.

Least of all, do I want Mr. Penny to give his voice to these communities.

I understand only too well why you posted earlier that killing mentally ill is not the answer. I have another story to tell. In my home country, many soldiers came home after WWII missing limbs. These human stumps on the streets made cities look unattractive. One night, they disappeared, being sent out to several islands to die unseen.

Perhaps Mr. Penny, a former Marine, should be aware of this story.

There should be no expectation that people traveling on the subway know the living situations and private lives of all others on the subway.

The expectation should be that I can get on public transportation and arrive at my destination.

When the NY Subway system thinks the public should simply tolerate being threatened and should tolerate feeling they are in danger of harm- that NY Subway system is causing mental illness.
If JN had attacked, harmed, killed someone- who would be held responsible?
If the NY Subway system can’t be held responsible- then the public has no choice but to step up and protect their own safety.

WHy? No one should be expected to tolerate threats of bodily harm, especially when that threat happens for an extended period of time and persons are trapped on a locked moving subway car.

JMO

 

[Cryptic]

Back in the day when my dad was transporting military prisoners during WW2, they used a different kind of hold (a variation on the twisting the arm behind the back - painful, controlling, but never lethal, the point was to get a double arm lock on the person.

The modern Marines probably train in various types of arm / wrist locks as well. In addition, they could also be instructed in matching the level of force to meet the threat level in non combat situations- usually illustrated as a pyramid.

These distinct possibilities could support a prosecutorial lead off question of: Slightly built individual, threatening, but not actively attacking anyone, no indications of a weapon.... why not attempt a lower level arm / wrist lock?

As a side note, whether its a chokehold, various types of arm / wrist bars, nerve strikes etc, there can be a world of difference between being able to do so in a training environment and doing so "in the field" with an actively resisting subject.

Not only do training environments feature fundamentally cooperative test subjects, but the instructors combine years of practice, real world experience with the technique(s) and usually a high level of natural athleticism that not every one has.

In short, Penny is not the first person to find out the difference between training and real world the hard way.

 

[AngTxGal]

Agree with most…

What bothers me is that the attitude to the homeless varies in different parts of the country. You can mention LA, me, Seattle or Boston, and NYC’s common mentality has changed a lot after 9-11.

But too often I meet people holding homeless responsible for own problems. People are probably unafraid to say what they do because such mentality is the prevailing norm for their communities. Homeless are treated differently in different places.

Least of all, do I want Mr. Penny to give his voice to these communities.

I understand only too well why you posted earlier that killing mentally ill is not the answer. I have another story to tell. In my home country, many soldiers came home after WWII missing limbs. These human stumps on the streets made cities look unattractive. One night, they disappeared, being sent out to several islands to die unseen.

Perhaps Mr. Penny, a former Marine, should be aware of this story.

Does this situation say a lot about how people view the mentally ill or homeless?

I don’t think so…

I think this situation says tons about how people view and value their own lives.
When it comes down to seconds, and a person feels threatened, their thoughts on the state of the mentally ill or homeless are not what enters their mind.

What enters their mind is- get away, protect myself, protect others.
Should we expect more from people? I don’t think we can or should.

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I feel like it may date back to horse and buggy days… the principle being you don’t want to tear and or bloody it.

I’m not sure it matters what the action of throwing a jacket down was intended to convey.

What matters is what the people on the subway interpreted the action to mean.
Coupled with other actions and the words coming from his mouth- it was interpreted as a threat.
People felt like they were in danger.

NY Post article of a 66 yr old woman witness who describes the situation and fear

JMO

 

[Cryptic]

I’m not sure it matters what the action of throwing a jacket down was intended to convey. What matters is what the people on the subway interpreted the action to mean.

I think both are important.

Neely used well known "street symbolism" that one is willing to fight immediately. The fact that the symbolism is well known then demonstrates that the fear the passengers felt of an impending attack was reasonable.

In short, its not as if Neely proclaimed something garbled like: "Everyone is going to eat cake!"

 

[Ontario Mom]

The NY Post mentions JN's aunt Carolyn Neely is now the "representative of his estate" and plans to pursue a claim for personal injuries and wrongful death. Jordan Neely’s family to file wrongful death lawsuit against ‘subway vigilante’ Daniel Penny

I came across this article just today, even though it's two weeks old now.
It's a sad story about her own personal life and struggles but this really stood out to me:

"His aunt was his emergency contact if he needed help or something were to happened to him. That call never came because she changed phone numbers. Carolyn Neely can't remember the last time she saw her nephew." Watertown resident mourns for nephew killed in New York City subway incident

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

jmo

 

[squareandrabbet]

The NY Post mentions JN's aunt Carolyn Neely is now the "representative of his estate" and plans to pursue a claim for personal injuries and wrongful death. Jordan Neely’s family to file wrongful death lawsuit against ‘subway vigilante’ Daniel Penny

I came across this article just today, even though it's two weeks old now.
It's a sad story about her own personal life and struggles but this really stood out to me:

"His aunt was his emergency contact if he needed help or something were to happened to him. That call never came because she changed phone numbers. Carolyn Neely can't remember the last time she saw her nephew." Watertown resident mourns for nephew killed in New York City subway incident

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

jmo

Well, I guess the assumption around it is that she's the best contact they have for him... or the best which he could have and did give anyone, which tells its own story about his family situation, probably - I guess they've not got anyone else to appoint on his behalf?

It's very sad anyway.

<modsnip: Not victim friendly>

 

[Sillybilly]

This thread is closed until further notice.

 

[Knitty]

Grand jury begins hearing evidence against ex-Marine Daniel Penny in NYC subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

The manslaughter rap carries a sentence of up to 15 years in prison.

nypost.com

 

[MadMcGoo]

Grand jury indicts Daniel Penny in chokehold death of Jordan Neely

A grand jury has decided to indict Daniel Penny in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on the New York City subway.

abcnews.go.com

A grand jury has indicted former U.S. Marine Daniel Penny in connection with the chokehold death of Jordan Neely aboard a subway train, law enforcement sources told ABC News.

The exact charges will not be unsealed until Penny appears in court at a later date, the sources said. (July 17th, according to this source.)

 

[Sillybilly]

Thread is open again.

 

[kittythehare]

Subway Vigilante Daniel Penny Indicted for Death of Jordan Neely: Report

Penny, who choked Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway train last month, has been indicted by a Manhattan grand jury.

www.thedailybeast.com