NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[kittythehare]

From your link.

A grand jury, at least in New York, is composed of anywhere between 16 to 23 jurors. They hear testimony and if 12 or more of them agree that a crime has been committed, they return an indictment. An indictment is a fancy word for accusation. Once a person is indicted, the case then proceeds to trial. In many states, including New York, you usually cannot proceed to trial on a felony complaint unless you have either been indicted. So, it is a critical part of the process. There is no judge in the grand jury. There is no defense attorney. And the defendant is not present unless he is testifying.

The highlighted part was in reference to your words that defense has no input. They actually have.
Here it is again

#ABKLaw BLOG by Michael Jaccarino: What exactly is a New York State Grand Jury? - Aidala, Bertuna & Kamins – New York City Trial Attorneys

What exactly is a New York State Grand Jury? What is a Grand Jury? A grand jury is a secretive body that is composed of regular people who get jury duty. There are two kinds of jury duty a person can get. The first is a summons to serve on a petit jury and the other is for a grand jury.

aidalalaw.com

No 13 on list

1. Potential defendants and witnesses

• Potential defendant, upon receipt of written request to appear by the district attorney. If a defendant chooses to testify, defense counsel can be present. If the prosecutor fails to allow a defendant to testify, the indictment is dismissed.
• However, there is no requirement that the defendant testify before a grand jury.

Source: New York County Lawyers Assoc.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The highlighted part was in reference to your words that defense has no input. They actually have.
Here it is again

#ABKLaw BLOG by Michael Jaccarino: What exactly is a New York State Grand Jury? - Aidala, Bertuna & Kamins – New York City Trial Attorneys

What exactly is a New York State Grand Jury? What is a Grand Jury? A grand jury is a secretive body that is composed of regular people who get jury duty. There are two kinds of jury duty a person can get. The first is a summons to serve on a petit jury and the other is for a grand jury.

aidalalaw.com

No 13 on list

1. Potential defendants and witnesses

• Potential defendant, upon receipt of written request to appear by the district attorney. If a defendant chooses to testify, defense counsel can be present. If the prosecutor fails to allow a defendant to testify, the indictment is dismissed.
• However, there is no requirement that the defendant testify before a grand jury.

Source: New York County Lawyers Assoc.

That's all? The defense counsel can be present if the defendant testifies?

Still way in favor of the prosecution. JMO.

 

[kittythehare]

That's all? The defense counsel can be present if the defendant testifies?

Still way in favor of the prosecution. JMO.

A man is dead.
He is entitled to justice.
This is the process.
We either respect it or we do not.
That is all.

 

[Sundog]

A man is dead.
He is entitled to justice.
This is the process.
We either respect it or we do not.
That is all.

Daniel Penny also is entitled to justice. And right now he is innocent until proven guilty. The grand jury has nothing to say about the defendant's guilt or innocence. That is what the trial is all about.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

A man is dead.
He is entitled to justice.
This is the process.
We either respect it or we do not.
That is all.

I understand that.

I'm just not sure why you challenged me on my post about the Grand Jury. I stand behind what I said and my following links supporting it.

And thanks for bringing your links to the discussion.

 

[Murphy1950]

New York back on my tourist list for sure.
The people didn't let him down despite all the malice.

What was all the malice, a difference of opinion on the part of the public? <modsnip: quoted post was removed>

 

[kittythehare]

Daniel Penny also is entitled to justice. And right now he is innocent until proven guilty. The grand jury has nothing to say about the defendant's guilt or innocence. That is what the trial is all about.

This might help

What is manslaughter and why was Daniel Penny charged with it in Jordan Neely's death? Experts explain

David Schwartz, a former prosecutor and defense attorney, and Anna Cominsky, a law professor at New York Law School spoke with CBS2 about the charge.

www.cbsnews.com

The second degree is based on this recklessness standard. Was there an unjustifiable risk taken in this particular case? Was the chokehold a reckless act where the defendant didn't intend to kill Mr. Neely, but a death did occur by this reckless act. And that's what the jury is going to have to tackle when looking at this," Schwartz said.

Dated may12 prior to GJ.

"But the reason why this manslaughter charge was brought forward is because it's based on a recklessness standard. Was there a reckless and unjustifiable risk to human life? And that's going to be the question for the jury."

"Our law defines that as when someone is aware and disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk of death," Cominsky said. "So in this case, the key is, is that they're saying that the potential defendant here, Mr. Penny, was aware of the substantial risk of death."

 

[shotgun09]

This comment, from Daniel Penny's attorney on the subject of Grand Juries:

“While we respect the decision of the grand jury to move this case forward to trial, it should be noted that the standard of proof in a grand jury is very low and there has been no finding of wrongdoing,” Steven Raiser, of the law firm Raiser & Kenniff, said in a statement. "

Daniel Penny faces up to 15 years on 2nd-degree manslaughter charge in chokehold death of Jordan Neely

A Manhattan grand jury has indicted former Marine Daniel Penny about six weeks after he fatally choked homeless man Jordan Neely during a subway confrontation last month.

nypost.com

Also, from the above link:
RSBM

"In a series of videos released Sunday, Penny said he felt an obligation to step in.


“If [Neely] had carried out his threats, he would have killed somebody,” Penny said.

Penny seized him from behind with a common grappling technique called a rear naked choke, and dropped to the ground as he and two other men tried to restrain the struggling 30-year-old.

A freelance journalist who happened to be on the subway recorded the tail end of the fatal encounter, and the footage sparked immediate outrage after its release. "

 

[MyBelle]

The highlighted part was in reference to your words that defense has no input. They actually have.
Here it is again

#ABKLaw BLOG by Michael Jaccarino: What exactly is a New York State Grand Jury? - Aidala, Bertuna & Kamins – New York City Trial Attorneys

What exactly is a New York State Grand Jury? What is a Grand Jury? A grand jury is a secretive body that is composed of regular people who get jury duty. There are two kinds of jury duty a person can get. The first is a summons to serve on a petit jury and the other is for a grand jury.

aidalalaw.com

No 13 on list

1. Potential defendants and witnesses

• Potential defendant, upon receipt of written request to appear by the district attorney. If a defendant chooses to testify, defense counsel can be present. If the prosecutor fails to allow a defendant to testify, the indictment is dismissed.
• However, there is no requirement that the defendant testify before a grand jury.

Source: New York County Lawyers Assoc.

iirc, the media reported several weeks ago that Penny did agree to testify before the grand jury. Of course, his attorney chose to be present. That's no surprise to me.

However, the defense has no control or input as to the other witnesses the Prosecutor chooses to testify before the GJ thus the expression that a DA could indict a "ham sandwich." It is the system that failed JN. I'm confident DA Bragg wants the dysfunctional system "fixed." JN should have never been allowed to be on that train.

DA Bragg was accused of bringing charges for purely political reasons. I don't share that opinion.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I support Daniel Penny 100%.

I believe he acted in good faith to stop a threat.
I believe he never intended to hurt anyone.
I believe the good folks in NYC that take the subway will agree with this 100%.

I can only add, I'm sorry Jordan Neely didn't get the care he needed, and it sadly ended with his death.

jmo

 

[mickey2942]

I am interested in hearing from the other men who were holding down Neely.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I am interested in hearing from the other men who were holding down Neely.

I agree.

Their viewpoints and perspectives will help us all understand what people were seeing and feeling when Mr Neely began yelling and threatening passengers on the subway. JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Daniel Penny also is entitled to justice. And right now he is innocent until proven guilty. The grand jury has nothing to say about the defendant's guilt or innocence. That is what the trial is all about.

Yes, we understand the difference between the grand jury and a trial. Obviously, Daniel Penny is entitled to a fair trial and he is innocent until proven guilty *in court*. That standard does not apply on Websleuths where we all express our opinions about guilt or innocence long before the trial takes place.

However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Daniel Penny took the life of Jordan Neely with his chokehold. I saw it with my own eyes and the coroner agreed. If Penny was convinced Mr Neely was directly threatening anyone, he could have restrained him in a less dangerous way that wouldn’t necessitate Mr Neely struggling for air. And when he was done killing him, he stood up, retrieved his hat and stood looking down at Mr Neely like he was trash (JMO).

But if a jury finds Daniel Penny innocent, so be it. I may not agree, but I do respect the justice system.

JMO MOO

 

[SugarQueen]

IMHO, JN was bound to run into someone who felt the need to protect themselves, or others from him at some point. It’s a shame it ended in his unintentional death.
As for the Grand Jury indictment, it doesn’t surprise me. Indictments are easy to come by.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree.

Their viewpoints and perspectives will help us all understand what people were seeing and feeling when Mr Neely began yelling and threatening passengers on the subway. JMO.

I also agree.

I can't even begin to fathom the fear of the most vulnerable on that train car that day. Two other men also helped CP to restrain JN and I look forward to learning their testimony.

JMO

 

[HmmMysterious]

I also agree.

I can't even begin to fathom the fear of the most vulnerable on that train car that day. Two other men also helped CP to restrain JN and I look forward to learning their testimony.

JMO

I understand, but do you think all of them approve of Penny killing Jordan Neely? I don't think so.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I understand, but do you think all of them approve of Penny killing Jordan Neely? I don't think so.

Approval may be hard. Understanding why could be easier depending on their perspective of the event. JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

I understand, but do you think all of them approve of Penny killing Jordan Neely? I don't think so.

I doubt these other two men went to assist Penny thinking Mr Neely would end up dead. I can’t imagine they feel good about what happened…at least I hope not. I wish they had helped Penny subdue Mr Neely by getting him to his feet and restraining him while standing or sitting. It was certainly possible to do so and it would not have been lethal force. Even if Mr Neely had continued struggling, it would not have been for air, and surely three men could subdue a smaller man.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Approval may be hard. Understanding why could be easier depending on their perspective of the event. JMO.

I do believe if any of the witnesses/participants with the restraint "approved" of Neely's death, they would have been charged. I think their agenda was subdue and protect JN as well as his intended victims.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I think that fear can create an adrenaline rush. Penny may not have even realized how tightly he was holding Neely. I am pretty sure that Penny didn't get on the train that day, looking to kill someone.

No one has said Penny was looking to kill someone! He had people helping him, so there was less reason for fear. I’d be really surprised if fear/adrenaline rush flies as a defense.

JMO