NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[MyBelle]

If a witness who was on the train says that they were afraid of Mr Neely because they had seen him act violently in the past and his current actions made them feel he was about do it again, would they be allowed to testify to that at trial?

Notice none of the witnesses are saying anything these days? Penny's defense attorney knows what he's doing.

JMO

 

[Emmjay]

One ex-Marine = one civilian. Why mention what he...used...to do? Opinion swaying can work both ways. Just a little food for thought...and MO.

eta...that is to say, some might be swayed by the...perceived... social standing...worth? ...or lack thereof...of the two men...?

 

[MyBelle]

BBM - Keep in mind that the law differs dramatically between "stand your ground" states and "duty to retreat" states. New York is a duty to retreat state.

And exactly where were those passengers supposed to "retreat" to in that subway car hurtling down the tracks as JN ranted, raged and threw items at them?
JMO

Stand Your Ground in New York

Research New York state laws on stand your ground, including what is regulated and what's not. Find related gun law details from Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence today.

giffords.org

New York Law​

New York does not have a stand your ground law. State law explicitly imposes a duty to retreat before resorting to deadly force outside the home.

 

[elevatorific]

And exactly where were those passengers supposed to "retreat" to in that subway car hurtling down the tracks as JN ranted, raged and threw items at them?
JMO

Stand Your Ground in New York

Research New York state laws on stand your ground, including what is regulated and what's not. Find related gun law details from Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence today.

giffords.org

New York Law​

New York does not have a stand your ground law. State law explicitly imposes a duty to retreat before resorting to deadly force outside the home.

For the entire 4 minute video we've seen, the train is stopped at the station with its doors open. Everyone is gone that wants to be gone. (ETA - except JN, who probably wants to retreat and they won't let him)

Before that, the train was "hurtling" for a total of 2 minutes from the time JN got on the train. So if we leave some time for Jordan to do the terrifying things he did... how long does that leave them trapped in the train? 30 seconds? Less? And yet DP still didn't let up.

 

[Jade]

Just not going to actual Biblical interpretation, but -- no and no.

Years of experience with VBS as a child & adult, and and multiple stints leading adult Sunday school.

Proof-texting is an enemy of reason.

jmho

I'm sorry I don't get your point.

If you've never seen depictions of Samson maybe look?

I'm not saying we were taught Samson was a hottie we just giggled over it.

I think that proof-texting is an insult of some kind but I don't get it.

 

[Ontario Mom]

For the entire 4 minute video we've seen, the train is stopped at the station with its doors open. Everyone is gone that wants to be gone. (ETA - except JN, who probably wants to retreat and they won't let him)

Before that, the train was "hurtling" for a total of 2 minutes from the time JN got on the train. So if we leave some time for Jordan to do the terrifying things he did... how long does that leave them trapped in the train? 30 seconds? Less? And yet DP still didn't let up.

Not that it really matters I guess other than for fact finding purposes (because Neely still died, unfortunately), but the way you describe this it does seem improbable there was even time for Penny to be applying a choke hold for 15 minutes.

I'm not from NY and I've never been on a subway so I'm not familiar with the stops and the time it takes from one to another. But, if Jordan got onto the train only 2 minutes before it stopped at the station we see with the doors open, how does 15 minutes even work? Is he being choke-held for solid 10-11 minutes before the guy Vazquez started recording? I realize we only saw a 3+ minute video but I'm wondering if anyone can actually put a timeline down from where Jordan got on and how long it takes to arrive at the station we see the video at?

ETA: or, interviews with the videographer where he says what time he started filming in contrast to what time Jordan got on, the the train arrived at the next station? Obviously his video data will say what time he started filming and I hope that's been collected as evidence. Just wondering if he's said anything about the time he started recording.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

For the entire 4 minute video we've seen, the train is stopped at the station with its doors open. Everyone is gone that wants to be gone. (ETA - except JN, who probably wants to retreat and they won't let him)

Before that, the train was "hurtling" for a total of 2 minutes from the time JN got on the train. So if we leave some time for Jordan to do the terrifying things he did... how long does that leave them trapped in the train? 30 seconds? Less? And yet DP still didn't let up.

So that means there could be several witness's that left the train before LE arrived.

Perhaps they can describe what happened before Mr Penny grabbed Mr Neely by his neck. If they choose to do so. JMO.

 

[kittythehare]

So that means there could be several witness's that left the train before LE arrived.

Perhaps they can describe what happened before Mr Penny grabbed Mr Neely by his neck. If they choose to do so. JMO.

They clearly did choose to do so as he has been charged based on evidence including witness statements.
I'm just not sure re status of his 'assistants'

 

[Cryptic]

I'm not from NY and I've never been on a subway so I'm not familiar with the stops and the time it takes from one to another.

 

[Cryptic]

I'm not from NY and I've never been on a subway so I'm not familiar with the stops and the time it takes from one to another.

That is a very good point.

Based on my limited time in NYC....

I would say that 15 minutes between stops in the five boroughs (the incident occurred in Manhattan, a borough) would be rare and probably involve an express train to a distant location. 15 minute train rides between stops might be more common with trains going to or originating from some New Jersey sites.

So, as you implied, eliminating the possibility of a borough express train and a New Jersey boarding, how do you get 15 minutes- especially in Manhattan, where the stops are usually very close together?

Assuming that Neely immediately made his threats upon boarding the train- and DP immediately put him in a chokehold, did DP continue to choke him through several stops? That does not seem very likely.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

They clearly did choose to do so as he has been charged based on evidence including witness statements.
I'm just not sure re status of his 'assistants'

Yes. I'm really interested in what the witness's have to say.

I wonder if some of the witness's didn't voluntarily contact LE right away and give them statements. Perhaps some had been found by LE after Mr Penny was charged with second degree manslaughter. JMO.

 

[squareandrabbet]

BBM. Sorry, but I don't believe the other passengers remained in total silence while this unfolded. On the amateur video I saw, multiple voices can be heard. Plus, a witness did speak to the news media.

JMO

Witness to Jordan Neely chokehold death calls Daniel Penny a ‘hero’ and offers to testify on his behalf

“The rhetoric from Mr. Neely was very frightening, it was very harsh,” the witness told The Post.

nypost.com

The witness told The Post that Neely, 30, went on an explosive tirade just before his caught-on-camera death, telling people he was willing to “kill a motherf—er” and “[take] a bullet” and go to jail.

Neely’s erratic behavior put commuters on the F train subway car on edge as they hurtled between stations in Manhattan, the witness said.

“The rhetoric from Mr. Neely was very frightening, it was very harsh,” the witness told The Post.

Yeah, I'm with you... as someone who takes the subway regularly, you can already tell this isn’t true.

Many options for intervention exist on the part of civilians – I am not necessarily, saying they are effective options, but they do exist.

The doors on a subway local train open approximately every minute or so, max 2, if a train is not stalled underground; and in my experience, it’s been so long post Pandemic since we had an actual “Rush hour', that this almost never happens these days.

this does not, however, mean that the trains are unoccupied.

more likely than not, if '15 minutes' elapses in the process of someone being held in a chokehold (keeping in mind the past cases have taught us it doesn’t take anything remotely near 15 minutes for a chokehold to incapacitate or kill someone; more like 4–6 mins max, if I recall the coroner's Gabby Petito discussion properly); well, then, in my experience, this results in minimum 7-8 opportunities for new commuters coming in to ask 'hey man, what are you doing? Get up off him'; 'we need to pull the emergency brake'; or the good old-fashioned option of leaning backwards out and waving crossed arms frantically at the conductor, who has to look at each stop to make certain that everybody is out of the way of the doors before they close them and keep moving; to the best of my knowledge, as of right now we don’t know if any of these things actually happened.

Aside: I have not looked to see if there is a thread for this person yet, but this is the type of thing that we are currently up against, which might make anyone into Bernhard Goetz:

is charged with attempted murder for NYC subway shove

 

[kittythehare]

Yes. I'm really interested in what the witness's have to say.

I wonder if some of the witness's didn't voluntarily contact LE right away and give them statements. Perhaps some had been found by LE after Mr Penny was charged with second degree manslaughter. JMO.

I got impression the 2 'assistants' were difficult to locate. nYP which I do not trust hinted that one had been located and arrested last week, I didn't verify that but did post link here with an addendum it possibly is not credible info.
Why would they have disappeared?

 

[Charlot123]

To me, as an above-ground commuter and resident of SoCal, the 6 minutes to arrival on the platform (per the mayor of NY, linked in one of my recent posts) seems really good. I assume EMS came as soon as given the all clear signal (which surely would have been soon). I would also think that LEO's in NYC would know CPR but maybe I'm just an optimist. I do not believe it would have been easy to revive Mr. Neely if his windpipe was actually crushed, though. He likely would have needed a tracheotomy.

IMO.

LEO in NYC absolutely know CPR. CPR technique has changed, that's the problem. I can't blame anyone, what with COVID and people ODing, mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is dangerous now. I have a question whether there are ambu bags in subway stations.
Modern CPR is probably more effective for someone who had a heart attack than someone who had a chokehold injury.

 

[squareandrabbet]

For the entire 4 minute video we've seen, the train is stopped at the station with its doors open. Everyone is gone that wants to be gone. (ETA - except JN, who probably wants to retreat and they won't let him)

Before that, the train was "hurtling" for a total of 2 minutes from the time JN got on the train. So if we leave some time for Jordan to do the terrifying things he did... how long does that leave them trapped in the train? 30 seconds? Less? And yet DP still didn't let up.

Ah.

So we do know this.

As someone who pre pandemic took the subway daily, if it took this long for people to figure that out (I admit I haven't followed all the coverage), well, then it’s almost criminal for MSM to have reported this incident so badly that this is a secret, leaving us with a single random eyewitness, 'Mr. Vasquez', with who knows what type of experience, or lack thereof, in paying attention to timings of things (studies have been shown that human beings, left to their own devices, are really terrible judges of 'how long things take', to the point where criminal attorneys have occasionally spent time in closing arguments, making their jury sit in silence for however long it has been alleged the defendant restricted someone’s air flow - turns out that seconds often pass like minutes in a stressful situation, gee, whoda thunk it???); that even now, no correct timeline of what unfolded when, where people were at what certain time, or how long things took has in fact been presented to us.

 

[IceIce9]

[/QUOTE

LEO in NYC absolutely know CPR. CPR technique has changed, that's the problem. I can't blame anyone, what with COVID and people ODing, mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is dangerous now. I have a question whether there are ambu bags in subway stations.
Modern CPR is probably more effective for someone who had a heart attack than someone who had a chokehold injury.

CPR is for any injury or condition that has stopped the electrical activity of the heart. It doesn’t matter if the heart was stopped due to airway obstruction, respiratory arrest, sudden cardiac arrest, or commotio cordis.

If his heart stopped due to choking or chokehold injury, it is correct to start CPR.

Hands only CPR is recommended for non-medical personnel, and no one should use an ambu bag unless they have been trained to use them.

Many people do carry pocket face masks with them.

 

[squareandrabbet]

Not that it really matters I guess other than for fact finding purposes (because Neely still died, unfortunately), but the way you describe this it does seem improbable there was even time for Penny to be applying a choke hold for 15 minutes.

I'm not from NY and I've never been on a subway so I'm not familiar with the stops and the time it takes from one to another. But, if Jordan got onto the train only 2 minutes before it stopped at the station we see with the doors open, how does 15 minutes even work? Is he being choke-held for solid 10-11 minutes before the guy Vazquez started recording? I realize we only saw a 3+ minute video but I'm wondering if anyone can actually put a timeline down from where Jordan got on and how long it takes to arrive at the station we see the video at?

ETA: or, interviews with the videographer where he says what time he started filming in contrast to what time Jordan got on, the the train arrived at the next station? Obviously his video data will say what time he started filming and I hope that's been collected as evidence. Just wondering if he's said anything about the time he started recording.

Remember the coroner in Gabby Petito case?

Didn't he say Brian could have killed her through/in as little as 2 minutes of strangulation?

IMO, it's practically useless for us to discuss this case until more of these facts are out; which is a large portion of why I have tactically retreated from discussing it at all until this point.

I mean, if someone wants/needs me in particular to say 'of course being a public nuisance isn't generally a crime for which meting out death is an appropriate reponse' then I will; but I don’t think many people would think this is much of a controversial hill to die on...

 

[mickey2942]

Kid Rock gives $5K to legal defense of veteran who put man in lethal chokehold

The Marine veteran has been hailed a hero by conservatives after video showed him placing Jordan Neely in a lethal hold on a Manhattan subway May 1.

www.detroitnews.com

Looks like a lot of people are supporting the perpetrator in this situation.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Kid Rock gives $5K to legal defense of veteran who put man in lethal chokehold

The Marine veteran has been hailed a hero by conservatives after video showed him placing Jordan Neely in a lethal hold on a Manhattan subway May 1.

www.detroitnews.com

Looks like a lot of people are supporting the perpetrator in this situation.

Because this case wasn't controversial enough.

 

[MyBelle]

Not that it really matters I guess other than for fact finding purposes (because Neely still died, unfortunately), but the way you describe this it does seem improbable there was even time for Penny to be applying a choke hold for 15 minutes.

I'm not from NY and I've never been on a subway so I'm not familiar with the stops and the time it takes from one to another. But, if Jordan got onto the train only 2 minutes before it stopped at the station we see with the doors open, how does 15 minutes even work? Is he being choke-held for solid 10-11 minutes before the guy Vazquez started recording? I realize we only saw a 3+ minute video but I'm wondering if anyone can actually put a timeline down from where Jordan got on and how long it takes to arrive at the station we see the video at?

ETA: or, interviews with the videographer where he says what time he started filming in contrast to what time Jordan got on, the the train arrived at the next station? Obviously his video data will say what time he started filming and I hope that's been collected as evidence. Just wondering if he's said anything about the time he started recording.

I've seen no media reports that say when or where JN got on the train or where or when Penny got on the train.

The guy who took the video said the chokehold lasted 15 minutes but I take what he says with a grain of salt. His agenda was to get media attention for himself and it worked.

JMO