NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[mooseandcoffee]

He didn't need to read the staffing note, he witnessed first hand that this guy was a threatening presence.

Enough to kill him?

 

[mooseandcoffee]

No one on here (including me) ever said that all mentally ill people are threats/dangerous. But, some definitely are. There have been documented cases of mentally ill/homeless people assaulting & in some cases killing innocent people. I don't think I need to provide links to these articles, because everyone on here knows (or should know) what I'm referring to.

One of the many, many examples is Michelle Go (who has been previously mentioned on this thread). She was brutally pushed onto the train tracks in NYC & killed in January 2022. And, the perp. was a mentally ill homeless man.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Drops in a bucket. There are always examples of some in a group who are dangerous. That does not give one person the right to take someone else's life because he was yelling and making others uncomfortable, IMO.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Agree with all of this. As I've stated earlier, if you don't live in a large urban environment & encounter disturbed/deranged/unhinged homeless/mentally ill people on a regular basis, you honestly don't have the experience to know what this is like. These encounters can range from irritating to dangerous. I've seen disturbed people scream/rant and rave one second, and then act completely calm the next. I've seen people talking to themselves & they seem to be harmless - but how do any of us know for sure?!

I.e., people like this can be & are (in many cases) extremely unpredictable.

It's shocking to me that if it is that bad on a daily basis--so bad that someone had to kill another human being--that anyone rides the train.

 

[Veronica Sawyer]

How much support did Derek Chauvin get? Didn't end up mattering at trial.

I don’t know that it’s fair to equate the two of them but I don’t disagree with your overall point. In between the two sides that have already made up their minds are the unbothered souls who don’t keep up with the news or have no interest in this news story in particular and they are the ideal candidates for this jury. An impartial jury is key for any jury.

 

[kittythehare]

Enough to kill him?

All he 'witnessed' was through his own 24 yr old filters.
Not necessarily something to be desired or an indication of wisdom or maturity and certainly no reflection on the reality of the situation.
Just his own.
Reckless.
Filters.

 

[elevatorific]

All he 'witnessed' was through his own 24 yr old filters.
Not necessarily something to be desired or an indication of wisdom or maturity and certainly no reflection on the reality of the situation.
Just his own.
Reckless.
Filters.

And media fearmongering that makes people overreact based on vibes.

 

[HmmMysterious]

A woman who witnessed the fatal altercation between Daniel Penny and Jordan Neely on a crowded F Train last week has come forth, claiming that Penny only put Neely in a chokehold after Neely threatened to kill fellow passengers.

She alleged that Penny, a former Marine, refrained from jumping in and using force to subdue Neely until there was a threat of violence.

He said, 'I don't care. I'll take a bullet, I'll go to jail' because he would kill people on the train," she recalled. "He said, 'I would kill a motherf*cker. I don't care. I'll take a bullet. I'll go to jail'.”

Witness says Jordan Neely started making death threats against passengers before Daniel Penny engaged him

“He said, ‘I would kill a motherf*cker. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail’.”

thepostmillennial.com

Neely didn't physically attack anyone on that train though. He was both hungry and thirsty, this man was calling out for help. A FIFTEEN minute chokehold was what he got in return. Penny deserved the manslaughter charge IMO

 

[elevatorific]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>
To keep this on topic: the media makes crime out to be a bigger threat than it is. Many people seem to think major crimes on the NYC subway system is high. It's the lowest since at least the 90s, excluding the pandemic. But as is clear from this thread, people are still so scared even though facts don't fit that narrative.

Crime on NYC subway system down more than 20% as tickets skyrocket: NYPD

Police figures show major crime on the subways is down 21.5% year to date when compared to the same period in 2022 — with every category of serious felonies but one in the underground system showin…

nypost.com

 

[Sundog]

Neely didn't physically attack anyone on that train though. He was both hungry and thirsty, this man was calling out for help. A FIFTEEN minute chokehold was what he got in return. Penny deserved the manslaughter charge IMO

And he deserves his day in court. Innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reaonsable doubt and by a jury of his peers. Not the media, not the prosecutor, and not the pundits.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for misidentifying the victim in this case>

As I & others have said, NO ONE riding the subway for whatever reason (whether it's work/commuting, going to school, business, sight-seeing as a city denizen or tourist, etc.) should have to put up with being threatened while minding their own business & not bothering anyone.

Also as has been said, NYC especially has a large amount of people (from all walks of life) who take the subway due to:

1) Not having cars - due to either not being able to afford them, not being able to drive, and/or not wanting them due to the hassle/expense;
2) Even if they have cars, not wanting to drive in the city due to the awful traffic, expensive parking fees, etc.

The same holds true for many other metropolitan areas around the world that have a decent public transportation system. And, as someone who used to take the subway to work everyday (though not in NYC), the convenience & ease of public transportation like this can't be under-emphasized. And, those of us who take public transportation should be able to do this without fear and/or concern that we will be threatened & possibly assaulted/killed without provocation.

 

[branmuffin]

I think this whole tragic situation is a case of perception is reality. But's whose reality? According to fellow travelers on the subway, Neely was loudly complaining he was hungry and thirsty; that he was fed up with everything and didn't care if he went to jail. He was being very vocal and gesturing wildly while complaining. This description is from several witnesses who saw Neely yelling and gesturing aggressively. IMO, those statements suggest several people had the same reality: Jordan Neely was highly agitated yelling at other passengers. Whether they felt physically threatened by his outburst will come out at the trial.

Like it or not, homeless people with mental health issues are a dime a dozen in large urban areas. They verbally abuse passersby, they aggressively ask for or demand money, they defecate and urinate on the streets (god forbid some aggressive drunken bar patron pees outside, this could be their reality).

I lived in Toronto for years, rode the subway twice a day. You are trapped in a tube, sitting next to people with BO, dealing with creepy males who press their privates against you while looking elsewhere; where you deal with amorous couples and people yell out "get a room!" And yes, there are people who are on your radar because of erratic behavior, bumping into people on purpose, yelling obscenities, planting themselves in front of the doors stopping people getting off just because they are pissed off at the world and feel helpless to change the trajectory of their lives.

You move away, don't make eye contact. When you live in large urban areas you adapt. That's the key. Not assigning yourself a hammer and treating all potential riders as a nail. I think that's what Daniel Penny did. He's been trained to assess threats. But if his perception was skewed then his response could be wildly off the mark.

Daniel Penny appeared to have approached Neely from behind. What was his reality? That he heard someone yelling and interpreted that as a threat? Did his actions reflect a real threat or was it just a perception? No other subway riders suggest they felt imminently threatened by Neely.

I don't know if Penny has ever subdued anyone by using a choke hold outside of his training. Upon reading the different types of restraints the first level is the least lethal. This is an excerpt from an article regarding the US Army's training for combat readiness.

"The techniques used by MCMAP vary in degrees of lethality, allowing the user to select the most appropriate (usually the least) amount of force. For example, a Marine facing a nonviolent but noncompliant subject can use an unarmed restraint to force compliance with minimal damage and pain.

A more aggressive subject could be met with a choke, hold, or a strike. Lethal force can be used on a subject as a last resort. The majority of techniques can be defensive or offensive, with or without a weapon; allowing Marines flexibility in combat and operations other than war (such as civil control or humanitarian missions, as well as self-defense)."

Picatinny Marines use martial arts to hone combat readiness

A 28 x 28 foot structure was completed in June to serve as a training facility for the active duty and reserve component Marines of Golf Company, 2nd Battalion, 25th Marine Corps Regiment. This

www.army.mil

When I watch that video of Penny suffocating Neely, I didn't see Neely trying to fight Penny, he was trying to breathe. Those weren't aggressive reactions toward Penny, they were the desperate flailings of a dying man. MOO

 

[kittythehare]

I think this whole tragic situation is a case of perception is reality. But's whose reality? According to fellow travelers on the subway, Neely was loudly complaining he was hungry and thirsty; that he was fed up with everything and didn't care if he went to jail. He was being very vocal and gesturing wildly while complaining. This description is from several witnesses who saw Neely yelling and gesturing aggressively. IMO, those statements suggest several people had the same reality: Jordan Neely was highly agitated yelling at other passengers. Whether they felt physically threatened by his outburst will come out at the trial.

Like it or not, homeless people with mental health issues are a dime a dozen in large urban areas. They verbally abuse passersby, they aggressively ask for or demand money, they defecate and urinate on the streets (god forbid some aggressive drunken bar patron pees outside, this could be their reality).

I lived in Toronto for years, rode the subway twice a day. You are trapped in a tube, sitting next to people with BO, dealing with creepy males who press their privates against you while looking elsewhere; where you deal with amorous couples and people yell out "get a room!" And yes, there are people who are on your radar because of erratic behavior, bumping into people on purpose, yelling obscenities, planting themselves in front of the doors stopping people getting off just because they are pissed off at the world and feel helpless to change the trajectory of their lives.

You move away, don't make eye contact. When you live in large urban areas you adapt. That's the key. Not assigning yourself a hammer and treating all potential riders as a nail. I think that's what Daniel Penny did. He's been trained to assess threats. But if his perception was skewed then his response could be wildly off the mark.

Daniel Penny appeared to have approached Neely from behind. What was his reality? That he heard someone yelling and interpreted that as a threat? Did his actions reflect a real threat or was it just a perception? No other subway riders suggest they felt imminently threatened by Neely.

I don't know if Penny has ever subdued anyone by using a choke hold outside of his training. Upon reading the different types of restraints the first level is the least lethal. This is an excerpt from an article regarding the US Army's training for combat readiness.

"The techniques used by MCMAP vary in degrees of lethality, allowing the user to select the most appropriate (usually the least) amount of force. For example, a Marine facing a nonviolent but noncompliant subject can use an unarmed restraint to force compliance with minimal damage and pain.

A more aggressive subject could be met with a choke, hold, or a strike. Lethal force can be used on a subject as a last resort. The majority of techniques can be defensive or offensive, with or without a weapon; allowing Marines flexibility in combat and operations other than war (such as civil control or humanitarian missions, as well as self-defense)."

Picatinny Marines use martial arts to hone combat readiness

A 28 x 28 foot structure was completed in June to serve as a training facility for the active duty and reserve component Marines of Golf Company, 2nd Battalion, 25th Marine Corps Regiment. This

www.army.mil

When I watch that video of Penny suffocating Neely, I didn't see Neely trying to fight Penny, he was trying to breathe. Those weren't aggressive reactions toward Penny, they were the desperate flailings of a dying man. MOO

That's exactly how I perceive it too.

 

[branmuffin]

Press release from <his> lawyers. Quel Surprise. Not

'Earlier this week Daniel Penny was involved in a tragic incident on the NYC Subway, which ended in the death of Jordan Neely. We would first like to express, on behalf of Daniel Penny, our condolences to those close to Mr. Neely,' the press release begins.

'Mr Neely had a documented history of violent and erratic behavior, the apparent result of ongoing and untreated mental illness. When Mr Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel Penny and the other passengers, Daniel, with the help of others, acted to protect themselves, until help arrived. Daniel never intended to harm Mr Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death.'

'For too long, those suffering from mental illness have been treated with indifference. We hope that out of this awful tragedy will come a new commitment by our elected officials to address the mental health crisis on our streets and subways,' it concluded.

The statement was issued through the law firm Raiser and Kenniff on Friday evening

Former Maine issues statement on death of homeless man on NYC subway

The former Marine who put 30-year-old Jordan Neely in a chokehold on a subway train in New York prior to his death on Monday has released a statement claiming that he acted in

www.dailymail.co.uk

Well, Penny's response certainly wasn't indifferent.

 

[Allabouttrial]

But Jeffrey Lichtman, a New York defence attorney who has previously represented drug lord El Chapo and accused mobster John Gotti Jr, says prosecutors will fail to win their case against Daniel Penny because the state must prove that the accused knew his actions could kill.

Snipped by me.

Surely they can prove it? He was a marine, he was trained in combat, therefore he knew his actions could kill, did he not?

 

[kittythehare]

Snipped by me.

Surely they can prove it? He was a marine, he was trained in combat, therefore he knew his actions could kill, did he not?

Seems pretty obvious.
He was trained on choke. (think links all on page 2)

He was warned by onlookers he was going too far.
Neely was immobilised, probably very quickly, seconds..
He continued to choke him.

 

[KooshBall]

It's shocking to me that if it is that bad on a daily basis--so bad that someone had to kill another human being--that anyone rides the train.

Not everyone can afford their own vehicle and insurance requirements. Not everyone is allowed to drive. Uber is expensive if you need to commute daily.

 

[branmuffin]

Every crime leaves a victim; many of these crimes leave victims who suffer forever. He left dozens in his wake. My point is that he shouldn’t have been a free man in the first place.

I do know. You stand up to threats, and you protect others. I’ve done it since I’ve been out, just not to this degree.

He didn’t attack an innocent man. He engaged a man he perceived as a threat. Mark my words, this ends as nothing worse than probation.

As it should.

Every week there's drunken idiots all over the country that get in altercations because they lack impulse control. If every drunken idiot mouthed off to people in bars spewing threats why don't they get neutralized by someone? Is it just happenstance or serendipity that some random Marine isn't in the vicinity to stand up to them as a threat?

I would think that statistics would bear out that violent drunks leave a legacy of damage far more than mentally ill homeless people on subways. The reality is homeless people are demonized as threatening and disturbing while violent drunks are perceived as just temporarily out of their minds.

I find it disturbing that that your comment "He didn't attack an innocent man" suggests Penny was prescient as to Neely's history and there is no negotiation as to the response.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I find it disturbing that that your comment "He didn't attack an innocent man" suggests Penny was prescient as to Neely's history and there is no negotiation as to the response.

RSBM

It's been in nearly every MSM outlet that all 3 men who restrained him and numerous witnesses saw and heard Neely acting in a threatening manner. Penny didn't need to have any insight into Neely's past, he (and everyone around him) was watching him in real time, screaming about how he'd "kill all the MF'ers" and didn't care if he went jail, or died.

Neely WASN'T an innocent man, he was being intentionally threatening and these men reacted to that.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

RSBM

It's been in nearly every MSM outlet that all 3 men who restrained him and numerous witnesses saw and heard Neely acting in a threatening manner. Penny didn't need to have any insight into Neely's past, he (and everyone around him) was watching him in real time, screaming about how he'd "kill all the MF'ers" and didn't care if he went jail, or died.

Neely WASN'T an innocent man, he was being intentionally threatening and these men reacted to that.

Which Mf’ers? Was he specifically saying he’d kill people on the train?

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Every crime leaves a victim; many of these crimes leave victims who suffer forever. He left dozens in his wake. My point is that he shouldn’t have been a free man in the first place.

It seems as if we all agree that the system should have done more to prevent this. It seems to me that some believe that it could have been avoided through the criminal system: this guy should have been locked up, he should not have been a free man.

This man had a horrible history of trauma, and his mental health reportedly has not been the same since. He was ill and in need of medical help and social services to address homelessness, etc.

This man also was a victim multiple times over...not including when he was attacked from behind and killed on a train.