NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Ontario Mom]

<snipped for focus>

Second degree manslaughter charge indicates that the criminal justice system in New York City, i.e. the District Attorney Alvin Braggs, has determined that the killing of Neely was not intentional.

Sounds accidental to me.


Edited to add - OP's post was snipped for focus

Unintentional, unfortunate incident that leads to injury or harm. Literally the definition of accident.

 

[JennieM]

Daniel Penny, in all the training he received as a marine, was more than capable to immobilise Jordan Neely without it resulting to his death. The fact that it did, it is on him. He caused an unnecessary death.

 

[Sundog]

Daniel Penny, in all the training he received as a marine, was more than capable to immobilise Jordan Neely without it resulting to his death. The fact that it did, it is on him. He caused an unnecessary death.

Seems like it took three men to immobilize JN.
Situations like this are fraught with danger to all involved, and tragically a life was lost.

 

[JennieM]

Seems like it took three men to immobilize JN.
Situations like this are fraught with danger to all involved, and tragically a life was lost.

I believe his death was avoidable MOO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

If he was threatening to kill some one, I wonder if he was talking to a particular person or group of individuals. Did Neely lunge at anyone? Did he raise his hand? Did he have a weapon? How in the world was he gonna kill someone? Bare hands? I mean I believe he said it but what triggered him?

 

[PrairieWind]

I believe his death was avoidable MOO.

It appears that Mr Neely and the City of NY are the ones that were in the best position to avoid this. The city's Dept of Homeless Services was well aware of how dangerous Mr. Neely was and still did nothing.

 

[Jade]

Seems like it took three men to immobilize JN.
Situations like this are fraught with danger to all involved, and tragically a life was lost.

Three men to kill him.

One Marine can restrain a starving, homeless, Michael Jackson impersonator that he attacked unexpectedly from behind by himself or he shouldn’t have started the fight to begin with.

The video starts with the full on choke hold with the one guy holding down Neely’s arms making matters worse. Then other then reaches down and pushes down Neely’s shoulder enhancing the chokeholds deadliness.

The two others aided and abetted the murder.



all imo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Audio Description: HOME-STAT’s Street Outreach teams reach out to various unsheltered individuals.
Man and Woman speaker: We are out 24/7, 365 days a year, in every borough. And we're committed to Stability and permanent housing can be a reality. But it can take anywhere from one to two hundred contacts to bring someone indoors. It's not easy, but changing lives never is. If you see someone in need, please call 311 or use the 311 app.
Text on screen: If you see someone in need call 311 or use the 311 app. NYC HOME-STAT #TurningtheTideNYC

Outreach - DHS

What happens when I call 311 to report a unsheltered New Yorker in need of assistance?

• Individual calls 311 and a Service Request (SR) is created.
• SR “outreach assistance” is assigned to a social service provider or a partner Agency, as needed.
• Once assigned to a provider, an outreach team is dispatched.
• Service provider outreach teams attempt to locate that individual and if found directly engage the individual, assess for safety and encourage them to accept services and transition off the streets.

Street Outreach - DHS

*I wonder if they keep records by name. Did someone ever call or text to report him?

 

[Sundog]

The two others aided and abetted the murder.

<snipped for focus>

There have been no charges of murder.

The other two individuals (other than Mr. Penny) haven't been charged with anything, as far as I know. And the charge against Mr. Penny is second degree manslaughter.

I can't imagine the other two individuals who tried to restrain Mr. Neely will be charged with murder.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

If he was threatening to kill some one, I wonder if he was talking to a particular person or group of individuals. Did Neely lunge at anyone? Did he raise his hand? Did he have a weapon? How in the world was he gonna kill someone? Bare hands? I mean I believe he said it but what triggered him?

The bottom-line here is this: NO ONE on the train knew what JN was capable of and/or if he had any weapons on him ATT - he didn't, but no one knew that. Sure, it's evident that he didn't have a huge weapon in his hands - but that doesn't mean that he didn't have a smaller weapon and/or a knife on him.

The world we live in is filled with horrific mass homicides on a too-regular basis. These are often perpetrated by strangers upon other innocent strangers.

If you don't want to have people react negatively to you, don't go around threatening them without provocation - especially in this current climate.

Again (and I feel that I have to say this every time I post on this thread) none of us is saying that JN deserved to die - not in the least. And, I agree 100% that DP shouldn't have done what he did. I believe we all wish this case had a much better outcome & that JN had survived.

 

[10ofRods]

Seems like it took three men to immobilize JN.
Situations like this are fraught with danger to all involved, and tragically a life was lost.

Does it seem that way? I've only seen the video one time, but it looks like the two other men do very little. To really help, one could have sat on his legs, which should have allowed some release of the strong choke hold. That never happens.

One of the men seems to be trying to talk to Neely and isn't doing much to restrain him (I can only find 1.5 minutes of the video this morning).

Of course, as we're watching, Neely is dying and becoming less and less of a threat. The one guy looks to be mostly just touching Neely, just in case he springs to action I guess, but also with a view of keeping him alive (the guy who says something about him going limp). The same man is basically touching Neely's shoulder and not really restraining him. IMO. If there's a video that shows otherwise, I would appreciate a link.

Neely was immobilized from the beginning by the chokehold, IMO. Of course, this is all happening fairly quickly.

The longest video I've seen is about 2.5 minutes, but it starts after the chokehold is already in place. Within those 3 minutes, Neely appears to go limp. At that point, his brain is dying or possibly dead. I can't find this version anywhere and this case doesn't yet have a media thread.

The 15 minute video, if it exists, has not to my knowledge been posted here or anywhere else on the web that I know of. If it exists, that means that for 12-13 minutes before the video I watched, Neely was held in a chokehold. IIRC, the two men start helping during the 3 minute video (so at the end of this ordeal). It would be interesting to see that 15 minute video (if it exists), to learn whether DP ever asked for and then directed the two men who helped. I am assuming that since Neely is still moving at the beginning of the video I watched, he was not actually already in a choke hold for 12 minutes.

IMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The bottom-line here is this: NO ONE on the train knew what JN was capable of and/or if he had any weapons on him ATT - he didn't, but no one knew that. Sure, it's evident that he didn't have a huge weapon in his hands - but that doesn't mean that he didn't have a smaller weapon and/or a knife on him.

The world we live in is filled with horrific mass shootings on a too-regular basis. These are often perpetrated by strangers upon other innocent strangers.

If you don't to have people react negatively to you, don't go around threatening them without provocation.

Again (and I feel that I have to say this every time I post on this thread) none of us is saying that JN deserved to die. I agree DP shouldn't have done what he did. However, JN was threatening & unhinged.

I agree with everything in your post. I’m sorry you feel a need to justify what happened. Truth is that someone probably really did need to step to JN. I agree. I would have. I’ve been trying to imagine being in that subway but all have to go on is my own life experience and it’s not enough. I can only I think if I was in that same situation, I would have been relieved that DP tried to help. I just don’t understand how it all went wrong starting with the first words and actions to one another. What were they attempting to do? I guess just de-escalate the situation but did it take a chokehold? Why didn’t he use normal wrestling moves to pin him?

eta* I am in the middle. Not directed at you at all. This thread is starting to feel like we are arguing with one another saying the same thing. I’m not good at this. Have a good day everyone.

 

[Ontario Mom]

It appears that Mr Neely and the City of NY are the ones that were in the best position to avoid this. The city's Dept of Homeless Services was well aware of how dangerous Mr. Neely was and still did nothing.

"For years before Jordan Neely, a mentally ill homeless man, was killed in the subway, the city had its eye on him. He was on a list informally known as the Top 50, a roster of people in a city of eight million who stand out for the severity of their troubles and their resistance to accepting help. The list is overseen by a task force of city agency workers and social-service nonprofits; when homeless-outreach workers see someone who is on the list, in some cases they are supposed to notify the city and try to get that person to a shelter. Despite that, and an open arrest warrant, Mr. Neely was out on his own on May 1, when he began ranting at passengers. A Marine veteran, Daniel Penny, grabbed him and choked him to death; Mr. Penny has now been charged with manslaughter." Jordan Neely Was on New York’s ‘Top 50’ List of Homeless People at Risk

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, the city most certainly did not have it's eye on him.
He had an open arrest warrant, while on the subway threatening passengers.
They may have placed him on some awful list, but that appears to be it.

 

[kittythehare]

Daniel Penny, in all the training he received as a marine, was more than capable to immobilise Jordan Neely without it resulting to his death. The fact that it did, it is on him. He caused an unnecessary death.

and he failed to stop even when other passengers warned him he had gone too far.
can that really be defined as an accident?
I forgot to stop?
Afraid to stop?
Forgot his de-escalation training, his choke training and any abd all other immobilisation manoeuvres and tactics he had been taught during his short career in the US Marines?
That's a lot of accidents.
The question is whether he knew better.
It seems like he did.

 

[elevatorific]

The bottom-line here is this: NO ONE on the train knew what JN was capable of and/or if he had any weapons on him ATT - he didn't, but no one knew that. Sure, it's evident that he didn't have a huge weapon in his hands - but that doesn't mean that he didn't have a smaller weapon and/or a knife on him.

rsbm

What's interesting about this is that if Neely had a concealed knife or sharp object, and if he had stabbed and killed Penny while Penny had him in a chokehold and unable to retreat, that would be a legally justified act by Neely.

Lots of people don't like Duty to Retreat because it doesn't sound as big and tough as Stand Your Ground, but this is exactly the sort of unnecessary escalation and confrontation it is meant to avoid.

imo

 

[JennieM]

and he failed to stop even when other passengers warned him he had gone too far.
can that really be defined as an accident?
I forgot to stop?
Afraid to stop?
Forgot his de-escalation training, his choke training and any abd all other immobilisation manoeuvres and tactics he had been taught during his short career in the US Marines?
That's a lot of accidents.
The question is whether he knew better.
It seems like he did.

He carried on for longer than was necessary. For that reason alone, Neely's death was avoidable and Penny is responsible.

 

[wary]

rsbm

What's interesting about this is that if Neely had a concealed knife or sharp object,and if he had stabbed and killed Penny while Penny had him in a chokehold and unable to retreat, that would be a legally justified act by Neely.

Lots of people don't like Duty to Retreat because it doesn't sound as big and tough as Stand Your Ground, but this is exactly the sort of unnecessary escalation and confrontation it is meant to avoid.

imo

Wouldn’t Neely have lost much of his self defense argument by being the one to threaten other people, without cause?

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

rsbm

What's interesting about this is that if Neely had a concealed knife or sharp object,and if he had stabbed and killed Penny while Penny had him in a chokehold and unable to retreat, that would be a legally justified act by Neely.

Lots of people don't like Duty to Retreat because it doesn't sound as big and tough as Stand Your Ground, but this is exactly the sort of unnecessary escalation and confrontation it is meant to avoid.

imo

He was wearing a T shirt and sweat pants and he had allegedly thrown his jacket to the ground, a weapon would have been visible clearly.
But let's not add to his woes and provide him with imaginary non existent weapons..
Jordan Neely was unarmed.

 

[elevatorific]

Wouldn’t Neely have lost much of his self defense argument by being the one to threaten other people, without cause?

MOO

Nope, because even if Neely were making specific and targeted threats to individuals (which imo it doesn't appear he was)... in that scenario those people had an opportunity to retreat too - both before any of this started, and while he was being restrained.

The one being harmed with no ability to retreat is the only one who can argue self defense.

 

[10ofRods]

=

Wouldn’t Neely have lost much of his self defense argument by being the one to threaten other people, without cause?

MOO

Depends on many variables. Where I live, someone shouting "I'm gonna do something to someone!" is not considered a direct threat. I do hope that some video shows exactly what was said. If the threat was more direct (Neely approached a particular person) then it changes the scenario greatly.

The sad thing is that, IME, schizophrenics like Neely frequently want to be contained and put in jail/jail mental ward. They get food and clothing, they get medication, they are prevented from making bad choices. This happens often (not always). I realize that a rational person would not handle things this way, but that's the whole point.

What bothers me is that the State of New York had the means to fulfill his wish, if that's what he wanted (to go to jail). Or if it was an option he was considering. At any rate, he ought to have been in a jail psychiatric ward and I do wonder why they had him on their list of most in need of care, and then did little to make sure than any of the arrest warrants resulted in action. I may be understanding events wrongly, but that's what I've gleaned so far.

I feel as if leaving passengers on trains in the breach, while the State had the means to confine this man for a considerable length of time (given his assaults on people in the past), is the real problem here.

IMO.