Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

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  • #761
Big snip

And incidentally Judge Greenland as an experienced High Court judge has always chimed with this view... the Defence's TimeLine didn't win the case but Roux succeeded in confusing an easily confused court , Nel largely ran this case as he should have etc etc.

( I'm sure everyone has read them by now, but here are the transcripts to the interviews with juror 13 again where he shares concluding thoughts on this trial.
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/judge-and-juror-vs-a-miscarriage-of-justice/

Thanks so much for reminding me of this!

I think Greenland does a great job of showing what goes wrong when you start mixing up facts and theories and inferences.

The factual inquiry comes first

Then logical and natural inferences.

So given it is accepted that OP shot Reeva multiple times at close range with no one else present - the logical inference is that he intended to do so. That is a factual inquiry with factual inference. It does not need to be BRD. It's simply what is highly likely.

Against this the defence pleads self defence.

What evidence is there of self defence?

Only OPs testimony

Is the testimony reliable?

No. Held to have lied.

Should the accused testimony be accepted?

No.

What is the logical inference to be drawn form the accused's unreliable testimony?

That the true facts are different than what OP said. Masipa correctly notes that does not prove guilt by itself. But it does prove that his testimony cannot be accepted as it MUST have happened otherwise

The Court should not proceed to then accept the testimony regardless. The Court may not assume that the mistake must have happened some other way. That is speculation.

Yet Masipa did precisely that - even though OP never provided a reliable explanation for how he came to shoot Reeva.

Bizarre!

JG: The question of whether that test was correctly applied or whether the
conclusion was correct is where the irrationality comes in. For instance, I can take this ? to show the absurdity of this
decision by saying that in effect Oscar needn't have given any evidence, in effect the court could have acquitted him in
terms of logic had he said nothing, had he not given evidence. Because by giving evidence, he never improved the denial
that he advanced at the scene when he said "I made a mistake". He never improved the denial that he advanced with his
bail application. And the detailed evidence of the bail application is part of the state's case. So in effect, the court, in
terms of logic, would have acquitted him at the end of the state's case because Oscar did nothing when he gave evidence
and especially on cross-examination to improve his denial of the charge of murder. This shows the absurdity of the
decision.

J13: Yea

JG: Because the court accepted that he was a ? witness. So he never at any stage improved his denial of an intention to
kill.
....

JG: Lisa, I think really I cannot argue because the court failed in two respects. Firstly it failed in its duty as a trier of
fact, to actually settle the fact

JG: All the defenders of this decision and the supporters of the judgement, say well you know, what he was required to
do was to put up a story that quite reasonably possibly be true. Yes, that's the test in law but that does not mean that
the court must just weakly accept whatever story is served up to them. The reality of the decision, and I've just
demonstrated it, is that the story was neither possible, and certainly not reasonable

The key point is the last one.

The version was not actually possible.

The wider point as raised by Nel in his application for leave, is that the job of the State becomes impossible if they must disprove every fantasy, including even versions the accused does not himself present
 
  • #762
Quote Originally Posted by GR_Turner View Post
Having just glanced through this, there is no mention of PPD. How interesting.




But I thought she did accept his PPD claim... [/B][/I]

If she did - why is OP in jail?

There comes a point when I have to say you will need to read Prof Grant and study the law of self defence. If you don't have that base knowledge then you won't understand what grant is saying.
 
  • #763
Thanks so much for reminding me of this!

I think Greenland does a great job of showing what goes wrong when you start mixing up facts and theories and inferences.

The factual inquiry comes first

Then logical and natural inferences.

So given it is accepted that OP shot Reeva multiple times at close range with no one else present - the logical inference is that he intended to do so. That is a factual inquiry with factual inference. It does not need to be BRD. It's simply what is highly likely.

Against this the defence pleads self defence.

What evidence is there of self defence?

Only OPs testimony

Is the testimony reliable?

No. Held to have lied.

Should the accused testimony be accepted?

No.

What is the logical inference to be drawn form the accused's unreliable testimony?

That the true facts are different than what OP said. Masipa correctly notes that does not prove guilt by itself. But it does prove that his testimony cannot be accepted as it MUST have happened otherwise

The Court should not proceed to then accept the testimony regardless. The Court may not assume that the mistake must have happened some other way. That is speculation.

Yet Masipa did precisely that - even though OP never provided a reliable explanation for how he came to shoot Reeva.

Bizarre!



The key point is the last one.

The version was not actually possible.

The wider point as raised by Nel in his application for leave, is that the job of the State becomes impossible if they must disprove every fantasy, including even versions the accused does not himself present

BIB - I don't understand why this is the logical inference
 
  • #764
Despite the simple clarity of most of the State's Appeal arguments ( that we have seen so far) , I don't hold great optimism due to the current political climate in SA ( one of many examples is it is still reeling after Marikana legal wranglings) and this is why I am most interested in seeing which judges are selected for the Appeal and some detail about their careers.

Maybe this will offer more than a few crumbs of solace to some of our posters.

Agreed.

I would not even give the appeal better than 50/50 in New Zealand.

I have read plenty of decisions at home where the Court of Appeal simply gives the High Court both barrels (to ensure that future Courts do things better) but leaves the substance as is.

They might easily say look there has been one big trial he got busted at least for CH so lets move on.

If this were NZ, i think it would be highly likely Masipa would be raked over the coals for failing to address all the evidence.

Appeal judges don't take kindly to having to navigate technically poor judgements.

They want all the findings laid out clearly, and all the reasoning signposted.
 
  • #765
including even versions the accused does not himself present

..........not easy for the accused to present more than one version.....!
 
  • #766
BIB - I don't understand why this is the logical inference

Then spend one year studying the law of evidence at law school

Please don't take this comment the wrong way - but inferences are a critical part of the law of evidence so i don't think you can expect me to explain it on a message board.
 
  • #767
..........not easy for the accused to present more than one version.....!

He presented at least three, shooting Reeva in self defence, involuntarily and due to some kind of PTSD
 
  • #768
Then spend one year studying the law of evidence at law school

Please don't take this comment the wrong way - but inferences are a critical part of the law of evidence so i don't think you can expect me to explain it on a message board.

......and with that we arrive at "mosaic of proof" (20.4) .......i ask you, is that credible ? .......
 
  • #769
He presented at least three, shooting Reeva in self defence, involuntarily and due to some kind of PTSD

........that wasn't changing his main version......he was trying to be slippery......
 
  • #770
If she did - why is OP in jail?

There comes a point when I have to say you will need to read Prof Grant and study the law of self defence. If you don't have that base knowledge then you won't understand what grant is saying.


Convicted and sentenced on CH??
 
  • #771
I'll give one example then give up.

X is charged with a burglary between 2-3pm

X's attorney asserts that X was at home, listening to loud music with headphones.

At 2.30pm a courier attempted to deliver a package to X but no one answered the door.

X does not give evidence.

What should a court make of this?

The Court is entitled to infer, that at the time of the Burglary, X was probably not home. The Court does not have to speculate about all the different reasons why X did not answer the door - especially not ones that have not been presented in evidence. The natural and logical inference is that X was not home.

Note that the State does not have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that X was not home
 
  • #772
Convicted and sentenced on CH??

You clearly don't understand the law of PPD/self defence.

If PPD is accepted it is a complete defence - rendering the killing lawful.

A lawful killing cannot be CH
 
  • #773
........that wasn't changing his main version......he was trying to be slippery......

So now killers are allowed a "main version'?

As opposed to their auxiliary version?
 
  • #774
I'll give one example then give up.

X is charged with a burglary between 2-3pm

X's attorney asserts that X was at home, listening to loud music with headphones.

At 2.30pm a courier attempted to deliver a package to X but no one answered the door.

X does not give evidence.

What should a court make of this?

The Court is entitled to infer, that at the time of the Burglary, X was probably not home. The Court does not have to speculate about all the different reasons why X did not answer the door - especially not ones that have not been presented in evidence. The natural and logical inference is that X was not home.

Note that the State does not have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that X was not home

.....that is a shining example of poor justice.........the doubt is always given to the benefit of the accused..........if this case is based on inference i certainly woudn't like to go before a court like that with the rest of my life at stake ......it's not guilty due to lack of proof...
 
  • #775
Then spend one year studying the law of evidence at law school

Please don't take this comment the wrong way - but inferences are a critical part of the law of evidence so i don't think you can expect me to explain it on a message board.

I understand that inferences are important. I don't understand why the logical inference is that he intended to shoot her. I don't have a spare year to study law of evidence at law school. If you don't want to/or don't feel a message board is an adequate medium to explain why the logical inference is that he intended to shoot her, then fair enough -there is no expectation of your response on my part. You can reply or not, as you choose -I accept that is the nature of forums.

In the risk of echoing a line from Highlander, can there be only one logical inference at any one time? (again - no expectation of a reply!)
 
  • #776
So now killers are allowed a "main version'?

As opposed to their auxiliary version?

.......he was being slippery......but in anycase he was lying about the whole lot........
 
  • #777
.....that is a shining example of poor justice.........the doubt is always given to the benefit of the accused..........if this case is based on inference i certainly woudn't like to go before a court like that with the rest of my life at stake ......it's not guilty due to lack of proof...

Most lay people get mixed up between evidential matters, inferences and the burden of proof.

Proof beyond reasonable doubt is the overall burden on the prosecution in the case.

It is not the standard for individual facts and inferences
 
  • #778
I understand that inferences are important. I don't understand why the logical inference is that he intended to shoot her. I don't have a spare year to study law of evidence at law school. If you don't want to/or don't feel a message board is an adequate medium to explain why the logical inference is that he intended to shoot her, then fair enough -there is no expectation of your response on my part. You can reply or not, as you choose -I accept that is the nature of forums.

In the risk of echoing a line from Highlander, can there be only one logical inference at any one time? (again - no expectation of a reply!)
......that's right......why should the inference be that he meant to kill her ??
 
  • #779
Most lay people get mixed up between evidential matters, inferences and the burden of proof.

Proof beyond reasonable doubt is the overall burden on the prosecution in the case.

It is not the standard for individual facts and inferences
......i think it's got more to do with moving standards that anything else...............or moving goal posts......
 
  • #780
Most lay people get mixed up between evidential matters, inferences and the burden of proof.

Proof beyond reasonable doubt is the overall burden on the prosecution in the case.

It is not the standard for individual facts and inferences

...........obviously inference for one is proof for another and going by what we've seen here it's not just lay people who get mixed up...............seen from a laymans point of view , of course.....by the way shoudn't "mosaic of proof" become "mosaic of inference" then .......?
 
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