Phone Calls and Phone Records

[ZOOL]

Ok, here are the pictures. Like I said they are not the greatest. When I go up next time, I will take my digital camera and get more. I was torn between watching open signal for the cell towers and trying to get pictures. I didn't want to miss anything important that I could share with my fellow websleuthers.

Nice PICs, BAC!

On a separate off topic: Do you have any idea what Dolores' tax assessment may be? I'm interested in assessing what might be the fair value of the Avery Salvage Yard, on paper.

As a cursory look into all that, we have a statement somewhere that Charles was prepared for a $400K offer into some sort of ownership. We also have implied remarks that the property would eventually be partitioned into three parties: Earl, Charles, and Steven; however that belief is most likely nonsense because Barbara is also an heir. So unless Allan and Dolores would disinherit their daughter one could assume that she too would benefit in some way from the fair market value of the Avery Salvage Yard.

Then in addition to the real estate taxes on the land and buildings, we would have the various other assets minus outstanding debt servicing/amortization of equipment etcetera... in order to attempt to assess a rough division of the Yard's value similar to Charles' 400K offer (on a 1/3 ownership???)

In my mind, a final "guesstimate and reason" for all of this nonsense would be to try to comprehend possible motives for Earl and Charles and even Barbara (et al Scott Tadych & family) to have hard reasons for getting rid of Steven. Without a hard reason, I find it pointless to think that any of those parties would have planted Steven's blood in Teresa's rav4 -- that is to say, eliminate the issue of inheritance and you exclude those parties in a Denny argument with reasonable motives.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Hi Zool. Your welcome. I would assume the family may have other assets they were giving Barb, maybe other property Crivitz perhaps? When I looked "up North", I think I saw a property near Wausaukee that was owned by the Dassey's, IIRC, Bryan maybe? When I looked at it before, it appeared the entire property was in EA's name including BJ's house. I believe CA still had his lot in his name. Anyway, here is the link you can check. I'm not sure if they have the taxes on there though. Although most areas that is public record and you can just search for Manitowoc County Real Estate Taxes and you should be able to find something. I would but I have to get to work.

http://webmap2.manitowoc-county.com/AdvancedAccess/

In any event, I don't think there is much value when you factor in the environmental cleanup that would need to be done to that property. After all, we know for at least the last 40 years it has been used for storing vehicles with leaking oil and other fluids. IMO, if there was any value it would be in the business itself, which generally is separate from the property, for bankruptcy purposes. Since the company is not publicly traded, there is no way to assess the value of a privately owned business, unless they share their financials with you, which I doubt they would do.

Ok, gotta run. Talk to you all later!

 

[missy1974]

Zool ~ I understand what you are getting at, and it's not really a theory of mine, but what I have read about Earl/Charles vs Steve was more of a dispute over him just being there, since they had been running it and working the salvage yard all those years and then he gets out and they felt like it was there's, not his. A lot of that is rumour though too... and then according to Jodi's statements, she made it sound like he didn't even work in the salvage yard full time, he spent a lot of time buying cars, reselling them, etc.

I've also read the theory that SA's family may have thought that if SA was in jail, they would have access to his "millions" that he was going to get from Manitowoc County.

Charles, IMO, if I was looking for a motive, I would look at his history with the random women that would come to the salvage yard. He was creepy lol

 

[ZOOL]

Hi Zool. Your welcome. I would assume the family may have other assets they were giving Barb, maybe other property Crivitz perhaps? When I looked "up North", I think I saw a property near Wausaukee that was owned by the Dassey's, IIRC, Bryan maybe? When I looked at it before, it appeared the entire property was in EA's name including BJ's house. I believe CA still had his lot in his name. Anyway, here is the link you can check. I'm not sure if they have the taxes on there though. Although most areas that is public record and you can just search for Manitowoc County Real Estate Taxes and you should be able to find something. I would but I have to get to work.

http://webmap2.manitowoc-county.com/AdvancedAccess/

In any event, I don't think there is much value when you factor in the environmental cleanup that would need to be done to that property. After all, we know for at least the last 40 years it has been used for storing vehicles with leaking oil and other fluids. IMO, if there was any value it would be in the business itself, which generally is separate from the property, for bankruptcy purposes. Since the company is not publicly traded, there is no way to assess the value of a privately owned business, unless they share their financials with you, which I doubt they would do.

Ok, gotta run. Talk to you all later!

Thanks BAC. Yes, the webmap2-link is interesting. I'm just beginning to understand its operation; however I've learned several things before messing up and losing info.

First off, Charles E and Earl K are listed as Primary/Secondary owners of the Salvage Yard proper. Here's the details:
006034002000000
Municipality: Town of Gibson
Sec-Twn-Rng: 34-21-23
Volume Page: 2359 169
Document:
Primary Owner: Avery Charles E
Secondary Owner: Avery Earl K
Mailing Address: 12930 Avery Road
Mailing Address2:
City/State/Zip: Two Rivers WI 54241-0000
Site Address: 12930 Avery Rd.
School District: Mishicot Schl Dist
Vocational District: LTC
Legal Description: 2359-169 NW1/4 NE1/4 EX TR1
CSM V11 P471 & EX TR2 CSM V11 P473 & EX LOT 1
CSM V20 P293 S.34 T21N R23E
Property Exempt:
Acres: 36.45
Imp. Value: $175,700.00
Land Value: $81,700.00
Total Value $275,400.00
Forest Crop: 0
Fair Market Value: $249,200.00
Fair Market Ratio: 1.0328
Assessment Rate: $0.00
Lottery Credit: $107.32
Special Assessments: $10.00
Tax Year: 2015
Total Taxes: $4,557.61

In order to duplicate what I've uncovered you are on your own! The important point though is understood more in your second paragraph.

I agree with your assessment: The EPA more or less governs what the partnership is really looking at when it comes to the issue of the Fair Market Value on 12930 Avery Rd (Salvage Yard). Barb's residence is listed as 12930 A Avery Rd; and from what I can determine, Charles E receives and pays the taxes on 12930 A; so he must hold the title.

Nothing in all the above really makes for much concern regarding issues of inheritance -- and a motive due to that. Of more importance would be Charles E's comment to law enforcement when he needed to return to the property ASAP during the days of the occupation. He claimed to be losing $4K to $5K weekly in business.

Since the limited-partnership between Charles E and Earl K is a small family business (that may-or-may-not have further obligations to Allan and Dolores) not even the weekly receipts seem to be worthy of further revelations....

So I will continue the rest of this post in response to Missy's comment later. (I've got work to do.)

 

[ZOOL]

Zool ~ I understand what you are getting at, and it's not really a theory of mine, but what I have read about Earl/Charles vs Steve was more of a dispute over him just being there, since they had been running it and working the salvage yard all those years and then he gets out and they felt like it was there's, not his. A lot of that is rumour though too... and then according to Jodi's statements, she made it sound like he didn't even work in the salvage yard full time, he spent a lot of time buying cars, reselling them, etc.

I've also read the theory that SA's family may have thought that if SA was in jail, they would have access to his "millions" that he was going to get from Manitowoc County.

Charles, IMO, if I was looking for a motive, I would look at his history with the random women that would come to the salvage yard. He was creepy lol

Missy ~ I think the point that I inferred was one of finding a third-party somewhere within all the possible perpetrators who may meet the qualifications of Third-Party Liability. Those qualifications are summarized as: means, motive, and immediate presence to the crime. Avery's attorneys raised the possibility of the obvious: Bobby, Scott, Earl, and Charles; and the less obvious: Martinez. The trial, the post-conviction hearing, the appeal, the replies, and the opinions carefully reasoned that no one met all three qualifications.

My only interest was in trying to comprehend a reasonable, financial motive for Earl, Charles, and the Jandas since they may have been then the only candidates to qualify under all three qualifications: means, motive, and presence .

With regard to all the other possible suspicious perpetrators and to their theoretical motives, I believe that the appellate judges would disqualify all potential candidates under the Third-Party Liability. Even though Charles is a creepy fellow, and Ron and Scott and Bradley had intimate relations with Teresa, we can only infer that Charles, Earl, and the Jandas meet two of the qualifications and perhaps the third.

However if you see section II of both State v Avery (Opinion) 2010 Nov 09 (ppg37-44) and State v Avery (Opinion) 2011 Aug 24 (ppg18-26) I think that I can safely say "It will take someone with a real strong connection to means, motive, and immediate presence, with also an overwhelming connection to all the evidence which points towards Steven before the appellate judges will reexamine their opinions on another Third-Party Liability.

 

[missy1974]

I don't disagree Zool ;-) Like I said, I have read (and I don't necessarily agree), that many others have theorized that the motive for family would be thinking that they would have access to his millions that he was going to get from the lawsuit, I'm not sure I've read the theory that it was for the property or salvage yard business.

Also, it's interesting to see the info on the property, I wonder what it was back in 2005? From what I have read, the business has gone down substantially since then, but I find CA's comment about how much he was losing a little over exaggerated, don't you? LOL I remember something from the show about how much the property was worth and SA was mad that they didn't use it to get him out, but then they added additional charges which raised his bail amount anyway IIRC. If I get a chance, I will search for that later for you (I want to say it was valued at 500K, according to Allan, but not sure)

 

[ZOOL]

I don't disagree Zool ;-) Like I said, I have read (and I don't necessarily agree), that many others have theorized that the motive for family would be thinking that they would have access to his millions that he was going to get from the lawsuit, I'm not sure I've read the theory that it was for the property or salvage yard business.

Also, it's interesting to see the info on the property, I wonder what it was back in 2005? From what I have read, the business has gone down substantially since then, but I find CA's comment about how much he was losing a little over exaggerated, don't you? LOL I remember something from the show about how much the property was worth and SA was mad that they didn't use it to get him out, but then they added additional charges which raised his bail amount anyway IIRC. If I get a chance, I will search for that later for you (I want to say it was valued at 500K, according to Allan, but not sure)

500K sounds reasonable when you take into consideration all the assets such as the new flatbed hauler, the new steel buildings, the contents, the lifts, the tools, the SUVs, reconditioned vehicles, fish tanks, mounds of transmissions, spare auto body parts, etcetera. I would guess even higher. Thus Charles' 400K offer seems reasonable in 2005. I would guess also that some banks assumed that Charles was a suitable capital loan. His claim for 4k to 5k weekly may have been a bit of a stretch; however junk yards do excellent, profitable business.

I agree that the family was uncomfortable with Steven's release from prison. The CASO-file information indicates these animosities are fairly prevalent leading into 10/31/05: Steven does limited daily work for the Yard; accusations are made that he steals from the Yard and that he spends more time on self-indulgence, sex, and flipping cars than anything else. It is easy to see that he is resented. The real possibility that such a person could be the recipient of $38M would be teeth-grinding resentment. It all makes for a good fictional murder mystery. But real life murder of an innocent woman in order to get back at the individual who causes you sleepless nights? That involves a desperate psycho killer.

I doubt any of the Averys fit that category -- other than Steven :hills:

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Have to chime in here.

IIRC, the value of the property was $250k in 2005. IIRC, SA wanted the family to put up the property for his bail. The additional charges were then added and the bail was increased to $500k.

Just a side note. There should be 2 separate companies. 1-the Salvage Yard Business itself and 1-The Avery Land. So the company who holds the land would be collecting rent from the Salvage Yard Business and paying the RE Taxes, insurance, maintenance etc.

The Company setup for the Salvage Yard Business would be the company that would selling the parts, do towing etc. Losing $4-5K a week would not be unlikely, annualized at about $240k in Gross Sales before expenses. Expenses would consist of rent to Land Owners, salaries of CA and EA and possibly SA, equipment rental/loans, etc. At the end of the year, they probably were not making much of a profit when you consider deprecation of the equipment.

IF EA and CA owned the company who owned the land, there maybe some profit left over for the 2 to split, but I'm going to guess some or most of it was going to mom and dad to pay a loan EA and CA took out to buy the property from mom and dad. Just a guess on my part, but I don't think mom and dad gave them the property as that was probably their only means to a retirement income.

 

[ZOOL]

Have to chime in here.

IIRC, the value of the property was $250k in 2005. IIRC, SA wanted the family to put up the property for his bail. The additional charges were then added and the bail was increased to $500k.

Just a side note. There should be 2 separate companies. 1-the Salvage Yard Business itself and 1-The Avery Land. So the company who holds the land would be collecting rent from the Salvage Yard Business and paying the RE Taxes, insurance, maintenance etc.

The Company setup for the Salvage Yard Business would be the company that would selling the parts, do towing etc. Losing $4-5K a week would not be unlikely, annualized at about $240k in Gross Sales before expenses. Expenses would consist of rent to Land Owners, salaries of CA and EA and possibly SA, equipment rental/loans, etc. At the end of the year, they probably were not making much of a profit when you consider deprecation of the equipment.

IF EA and CA owned the company who owned the land, there maybe some profit left over for the 2 to split, but I'm going to guess some or most of it was going to mom and dad to pay a loan EA and CA took out to buy the property from mom and dad. Just a guess on my part, but I don't think mom and dad gave them the property as that was probably their only means to a retirement income.

Cool, BAC ~ I follow your reasoning on everything except "losing $4-5K a week, annualized at about $240K..." Just because CA was worried that he stood to lose $4-5K during the time law enforcement had possession of the Yard doesn't mean that the Yard was going to lose that kind of money for the entire year.

"Making A Murderer" does imply: that by that time Episode 9 rolls around, business was going down the crapper and Allan Avery does seem awfully depressed as he gazes at his fish tanks and claims that he will be happy living in Crivitz with his weedy garden, and with a few other, sad memories. Yet the Company has paid its taxes from 2005 to today, and both Earl K and Charles E seem to be game fully employed, doing business.

Do you have reason to believe otherwise?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Cool, BAC ~ I follow your reasoning on everything except "losing $4-5K a week, annualized at about $240K..." Just because CA was worried that he stood to lose $4-5K during the time law enforcement had possession of the Yard doesn't mean that the Yard was going to lose that kind of money for the entire year.

"Making A Murderer" does imply: that by that time Episode 9 rolls around, business was going down the crapper and Allan Avery does seem awfully depressed as he gazes at his fish tanks and claims that he will be happy living in Crivitz with his weedy garden, and with a few other, sad memories. Yet the Company has paid its taxes from 2005 to today, and both Earl K and Charles E seem to be game fully employed, doing business.

Do you have reason to believe otherwise?

No, not at all. However, I was just pointing out that losing $4k-$5k a week would not be out of the question and CA's claim about losing that kind of money could be true and $240K in Gross Sales for the year doesn't seem to be out of line for the type of business they are in. $4-$5k a week would be equivalent to $20k to $25K a month or ($20k a month x 12 months would be equivalent to $240k annually) and before expenses. I would not be surprised if they did loose that kind of money, that's all.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I know I promised the tower details from about 10 miles south of Manitowoc. It was the only tower that had any resemblance to any numbers on TH's bill (and it wasn't that close)

According to Open Signal, the bsid was 4719, the nid was 2 and the sid was 4154. The sid didn't change the whole way up through Green Bay and further up. The nid never changed either. There is a dBm that I'm not familiar with and I'm wondering if this might be the "degrees" from the tower? This number was changing all the time as well as the bsid. Sometimes the dBm would be -102, -106, -95. I'm not sure what it stands for. I'm wondering if this is where the hexademical number conversion comes in? I quickly tried converting the numbers and using the Google Earth Pro cell towers to see if I could come up with a match--but I didn't have much time to do that.

I will print it out TH's phone records next time and record all of the towers at important locations on I-43 the next time I go (next month)

Thought I would throw this in too regarding the sid 4154, I think it explains why it doesn't change but also further up in the UP, it states Altel's sid is 244.

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1570637-SID-List-for-Page-Plus-Verizon

 

[dexter75]

For those that are certain Avery is guilty & where he belongs, I have a question;

What is your opinion of the phone records?

1. The fact that they were printed off & handed to LE by TH's EX

2. For those that have read the transcripts & reports, what is your take on the many inconsistencies in regards to SA & TH phone records?? ( Don't have time to list em all, sorry, in a hurry )

 

[missy1974]

I've been reading more about those phone records and Dawn from AutoTrader.... one thing I have yet to find is where in the world did they get the incoming phone numbers from????? There were a few listed, but the 2:27 one is listed as INCOMING call from AutoTrader, I don't see any official verification of this other than Kratz submitting it in the trial. They are not on her bill, and they had them long before they got anything official from Cingular because the search warrants are after they had the numbers in their reports.

And then there is Dawn haha She's a thorn for me. This is her first statement http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=20 .... this was on November 3rd.

DAWN states she knows the JANDAS are basically the AVERY brothers. She states
they have done work for them before and she does not know why they give the name of B.
JANDA.

B.Janda was given because it was Barb's van. But more importantly, in the trial, she insists that she had no clue the Janda's and Avery's were connected and she said that she did not tell Wiegert that. Someone is lying... Wiegert or Dawn?

DAWN further stated she had called TERESA in the aftemoon. she believes. but she is not sure
if she actually talked to TERESA or if she left her a message on her voice mail.

In the trial, this turned into Teresa called her at 2:27 and they had a 5 minute conversation. 3 days after the fact, she can't recall that??? She couldn't even remember if she talked to her or left a message???? Really Dawn?


She did state when she had talked to TERESA, TERESA had told her she
was going to go out to the AVERY property to take the photo.

So Dawn, you did talk to her? Earlier you couldn't remember if you did. Or is this the message that Angela gave Dawn when she got back from her lunch break? *sigh*

I don't see any other reports of interviews with Dawn in the CASO report. Maybe it's in the DCI report? But somewhere along the way, things changed.

JMO

 

[dexter75]

UNDERLINED BY ME

Seems to have happened a lot in this case...

I've been reading more about those phone records and Dawn from AutoTrader.... one thing I have yet to find is where in the world did they get the incoming phone numbers from????? There were a few listed, but the 2:27 one is listed as INCOMING call from AutoTrader, I don't see any official verification of this other than Kratz submitting it in the trial. They are not on her bill, and they had them long before they got anything official from Cingular because the search warrants are after they had the numbers in their reports.

And then there is Dawn haha She's a thorn for me. This is her first statement http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=20 .... this was on November 3rd.

DAWN states she knows the JANDAS are basically the AVERY brothers. She states
they have done work for them before and she does not know why they give the name of B.
JANDA.

B.Janda was given because it was Barb's van. But more importantly, in the trial, she insists that she had no clue the Janda's and Avery's were connected and she said that she did not tell Wiegert that. Someone is lying... Wiegert or Dawn?

DAWN further stated she had called TERESA in the aftemoon. she believes. but she is not sure
if she actually talked to TERESA or if she left her a message on her voice mail.

In the trial, this turned into Teresa called her at 2:27 and they had a 5 minute conversation. 3 days after the fact, she can't recall that??? She couldn't even remember if she talked to her or left a message???? Really Dawn?


She did state when she had talked to TERESA, TERESA had told her she
was going to go out to the AVERY property to take the photo.

So Dawn, you did talk to her? Earlier you couldn't remember if you did. Or is this the message that Angela gave Dawn when she got back from her lunch break? *sigh*

I don't see any other reports of interviews with Dawn in the CASO report. Maybe it's in the DCI report? But somewhere along the way, things changed.

JMO

 

[missy1974]

UNDERLINED BY ME

Seems to have happened a lot in this case...

LOL as I was typing that post, it reminded me of "the fish that got away"

It was this ____________________________________________________ BIG! It seems like everything got bigger with time!

Hi Dexter :wave:

 

[dexter75]

Lololol!
Hello there Missy!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[MysticJynx]

Ok I am gonna just throw this out there. been awhile since I have posted. Hello all!!!!!.

The problem I have with RH's version of the phone bill is clearly putting SA next to BJ's number. If you look at Wiegerts report on the third he says they did reverse directory. WHO DID? Wiegert certainly did not. The other investigator Dedering, He shows that when he looked up the number it came back to TJanda. Also states that the incoming call at 2:27 was a 414 number. However this is only seen in their written reports. Would really like to see the Doctored Phone bill that RH gave to police, that were misleading. SA being one mislead, Possibly the 2:27 call. Which btw DP at auto trader said TH called the office. So was it incoming or out going that call? Also that Printed off phone bill did not carry the last two numbers on her bill. The last call would have been from SA but was not on that copy. The Law enforcement were basing her last call at 2:27. Also misleading. He did a lot of misleading very early on with just one phone record. The question is why?

ALSO Dedering reverse directed that 2:27 call and did not find who it belonged to.

Wiegert:

Dedering:

 

[missy1974]

Hi Mystic :wave: Nice to see you back!

These calls and anything Auto Trader (with Dawn included) are thorns for me LOL I just want to see some proof.... We don't even know where they got those phone numbers from, they don't show on the bills they submitted as exhibits... Not the KK spreadsheet, the bill. So not only do we not know where they came from.... they don't reverse directory back to anyone.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Hi Mystic :wave: Nice to see you back!

These calls and anything Auto Trader (with Dawn included) are thorns for me LOL I just want to see some proof.... We don't even know where they got those phone numbers from, they don't show on the bills they submitted as exhibits... Not the KK spreadsheet, the bill. So not only do we not know where they came from.... they don't reverse directory back to anyone.

Ditto Mystic! :welcomeback:

I think those numbers came from CASO reports Missy.

 

[dexter75]

Thank you Missy. Where DID those numbers come from? Anyone? Why would KRATZ submit a spreadsheet and NOT the actual bill??

And hello Mystic! Good to see you chime in again:wave:

Hi Mystic :wave: Nice to see you back!

These calls and anything Auto Trader (with Dawn included) are thorns for me LOL I just want to see some proof.... We don't even know where they got those phone numbers from, they don't show on the bills they submitted as exhibits... Not the KK spreadsheet, the bill. So not only do we not know where they came from.... they don't reverse directory back to anyone.