Phone Calls and Phone Records

[missy1974]

"Teresa Halbach made business stops on 10/31 including the residence of Steven
Schmitz at approximately 1:30 PM, and George Zipperer at approximately 2:15 PM."

Source: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Offer-of-Proof.pdfThe offer of proof

This isn't testimony. The testimony from JoEllen Zipperer was anywhere from noon - 3:30pm that afternoon.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

You're absolutely right. I feel like a silly goose considering that date is two lines below.

No harm, no foul! I've done that a million times!

 

[BigCityAccountant]

"Teresa Halbach made business stops on 10/31 including the residence of Steven
Schmitz at approximately 1:30 PM, and George Zipperer at approximately 2:15 PM."

Source: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Offer-of-Proof.pdfThe offer of proof

So, the question now becomes--could she have been pinging off that tower (21923) make it to GZ's and then to Avery's all before 2:30 pm? The burning question in my mind is SA said she made a LEFT turn on 147. That would mean she was heading back to I-43, not down County Road B toward GZ's (if we are to believe SA). So that leads me to believe she did go to GZ's PRIOR to SA's.

I would also like to point out a tower has a radius of about 20-30 miles--so it doesn't mean she was EXACTLY at 151 and 67, but was WITHIN a 20-30 mile radius.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Is this the same picture or no?

 

[LifeCitizen]

So, the question now becomes--could she have been pinging off that tower (21923) make it to GZ's and then to Avery's all before 2:30 pm? The burning question in my mind is SA said she made a LEFT turn on 147. That would mean she was heading back to I-43, not down County Road B toward GZ's (if we are to believe SA). So that leads me to believe she did go to GZ's PRIOR to SA's.

I would also like to point out a tower has a radius of about 20-30 miles--so it doesn't mean she was EXACTLY at 151 and 67, but was WITHIN a 20-30 mile radius.

I'd like to point out (lol) you are and Missy are such contributors to this forum, I've learnt so much from both of you. And others! :cheers:
I just really hope KZ knows what she's doing. Because I'm still not convinced either way, I hope she has found something noone else did, or that someone has started talking!

 

[dexter75]

Extremely valid points, Missy.
IMO

Can you point me to who's testimony states that she finished at Zipperer's and was on her way to Avery's? Kratz may have said it in his opening and/or closing statements, but that's not testimony, that's his narrative.

Schmitz didn't testify that TH said where she was going.

JZ said TH didn't say anything about where she was or where she was going, and she had a pretty broad timeline for that day too, I think in the end she said TH could have been there any time between noon and 3:30pm (and keep in mind that when LE went and talked to her on Nov 3rd, she didn't even know what day it was currently)

Dawn... if you believe her testimony, didn't say anything about TH being done at Zipperer's.

If when TH talked to Dawn and TH said to her "by the way, it was the Avery brothers", why would TH say that? How would she know that at 2:27 if she hadn't already been there?

 

[missy1974]

I'd like to point out (lol) you are and Missy are such contributors to this forum, I've learnt so much from both of you. And others! :cheers:
I just really hope KZ knows what she's doing. Because I'm still not convinced either way, I hope she has found something noone else did, or that someone has started talking!

I have to say... I'm a bit hesitant about the cell phone data, but KZ was pretty bold to put it out there, not only in a tweet but in that newsweek article if she doesn't have some sort of evidence to back it up. Then to mention that Strang/Buting "screwed up" by not using the data.... grrrrr she should just post it online so BCA can look over her work ... ya know... so she can double check :giggle:

 

[HastingsChi]

This isn't testimony. The testimony from JoEllen Zipperer was anywhere from noon - 3:30pm that afternoon.

Do you even know what an offer of proof is?

 

[LifeCitizen]

I have to say... I'm a bit hesitant about the cell phone data, but KZ was pretty bold to put it out there, not only in a tweet but in that newsweek article if she doesn't have some sort of evidence to back it up. Then to mention that Strang/Buting "screwed up" by not using the data.... grrrrr she should just post it online so BCA can look over her work ... ya know... so she can double check :giggle:

lol, she should.

Off to the tweet thread, have been away- have missed the mention of Strang/Buting.

 

[missy1974]

Do you even know what an offer of proof is?

offer of proof
Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary

At trial, an explanation to a judge by a party or the party's attorney as to how a proposed line of questioning, or a certain item of physical evidence, would be relevant to its case and admissible under the rules of evidence. Offers of proof arise when a party begins a line of questioning that the other side objects to as calling for irrelevant or inadmissible information. If the judge thinks that the questions might lead to proper evidence, the questioner will be give a chance to show how the expected answers will be both relevant and admissible. This explanation is usually presented out of the jurys hearing, but it does become part of the trial record.

Just because it's in that document doesn't make it true IMO Looking at that offer of proof briefly again, it also said that the towel incident happened on October 10th... and because I just read Dawn's testimony again yesterday, she did not say it happened the 10th, she didn't know when it happened, and TH didn't specify a date.... but it sure helped the Kratz narrative if it was October 10th. (the statement was not allowed based on Dawn not knowing the date it occurred ... in short)

In JZ's cross exam, Strang got her to admit that basically she had no clue what time it was. Not trying to be mean or anything like that but JZ did not seem like she was good with time at all, again, pointing to the MTSO report that when they went out there the night of November 3rd, she didn't even know what day it was currently.

MTSO report:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

And in case you are interested...

here is the response, Defendant's Memo on Teresa Halbach:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Defendants-Memo-on-Teresa-Halbach.pdf

and the courts decision:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...otion-in-Limine-Re-Teresa-Halbach-History.pdf

 

[BigCityAccountant]

lol, she should.

Off to the tweet thread, have been away- have missed the mention of Strang/Buting.

LOL--just call me to testify--I'll be an expert by then. :laugh:

 

[Limaes]

Can you point me to who's testimony states that she finished at Zipperer's and was on her way to Avery's? Kratz may have said it in his opening and/or closing statements, but that's not testimony, that's his narrative.

Its all in the transcripts. Testimony of those who seen her that day along with phone records.

Schmitz didn't testify that TH said where she was going.

Never said he did. Her stop at his house is part of the timeline though.

JZ said TH didn't say anything about where she was or where she was going, and she had a pretty broad timeline for that day too, I think in the end she said TH could have been there any time between noon and 3:30pm (and keep in mind that when LE went and talked to her on Nov 3rd, she didn't even know what day it was currently)

She did not say that at all. It was the Defense's narrative. You can't have it both ways. When HE suggested 3.30, she said it was more mid - afternoon.

Dawn... if you believe her testimony, didn't say anything about TH being done at Zipperer's.

Why wouldn't I believe her? Is she in on the coverup too? Her testimony is backed up by phone records which state Teresa was around the Zipperer's between 2.12pm and 2.27pm which fits right in with BoD testimony of her being on Avery rd at approx 2.45pm.

If when TH talked to Dawn and TH said to her "by the way, it was the Avery brothers", why would TH say that? How would she know that at 2:27 if she hadn't already been there?

Because someone (SA) had listened to her voice message to the Janda residence stating that she wouldn't be coming until someone returned her call with the address which he did most likely with the 2.24pm call and had to keep his number on private so she wouldn't know it was him. Thats how!



Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

 

[missy1974]

Limaes ~ I disagree, it's not in the testimony.

JZ's testimony~
Q. So I guess mid-afternoon could have been 2, 2:30 possibly?
A. Could have been.
Q. Could have been 3:00?
A. Could have been.
Q. Could have been 3:30 or a little after that, something like that, but sometime in the middle of the afternoon?
A. Yes.

Dawn ~ no one said she was in on the coverup, but she can be wrong in how she is remembering things IMO Like her calling TH... not TH calling her. By the way, there is no verification with any phone records other than times of incoming calls. There is nothing admitted into evidence that shows who those incoming calls are from. Shoot, TH's phone records that were admitted even say on them that they may not be complete, and SA's records were made up on a spreadsheet (not even by the person that testified about them IIRC)

SA calling TH ~ those calls were not long, one didn't even get through to her phone (he hung up before it connected), and the other was 8 seconds on her phone, 7 on his. IMO not long enough for a conversation.


If KZ has more data related to these cell phones and cell pings, and she has indicated that she does, I have to think that Strang and Buting did "screw up", which I kind of already figured LOL Also.... I'm still not sure whether I believe she went to Zipperer's or Avery's first, at this point it's like the 'chicken and the egg' for me. I don't see any solid evidence of either, and I could make those calls fit both "stories". JMO

 

[ZOOL]

After looking at the calls today and other testimony, I'm not so sure the time was off. Schmitz would have to be off by an hour.... and KZ was implying the time being off would validate the "witnesses" that saw her leave. I'm thinking propane guy and maybe the bus driver.... but the time change wouldn't help that, because the time fell back an hour, not ahead. Unless there is something else I'm missing.

Missy ~ Although the phone records may not reflect the time change, that does not mean that the human mind also does not reflect the change. In other words, the bus driver's recollection is based upon the prevailing consensus of a Wisconsin, human mind on Monday, Oct 31 -- that is, the school schedule remains the same: it begins at the same time each day and ends at the same time. Thus the bus left the school at 3:00 (as always) and delivered Brendan at 3:30 (as testified by the bus driver). Meanwhile Halbach's cellphone record would say 4:30. Also, the propane man would be at his station on realtime Oct 31-time, or 3:30 to 4:00 (while Halbach's cellphone would be registering 4:30 to 5:00).

At least this would be my interpretation of the effect of the Cingular Local Switch Time.

And if this is indeed the case, then I echo Hoosen_Fenger's remark: "It does however, make me feel a little cold inside because it clearly points to TH being tied up and frightened for over an hour before Brendan got home and joined in."

 

[missy1974]

Hey Zool

Yeah, the time change thing, doesn't make much sense to me, and her records only support a time change "alibi" if her clock was an hour behind, not an hour ahead. So calls at 2:30, lining up with bus driver who see's her at 3:30, but the time change doesn't support that at all because of the time of year, they fell back, and no way, no how was the school and school bus not on the right time.

I am somewhat time change challenged.... the worst thing that happens to me at time change 2 times every year is adjusting to the new times of my tv shows... and trying to remember to not phone my girlfriend that lives in Eastern Canada too late at night because she is now 2 hours ahead of me LOL I have lived in Saskatchewan, Canada my whole life, we don't change time here ;-) (and we even have our own "time zone" option in the drop down on a computer/phone, etc. so our electronic devices don't "adjust" automatically)

 

[BigCityAccountant]

We have to do the time change thing here and I hate it.

So, in the fall the clock "falls back" 1 hour. So that would mean if you did not change your clock the actual time and your clock would read as follows:

Actual/Clock
12:00 am/1:00 am
1:00 am/2:00 am
2:00 am/3:00 am
3:00 am/4:00 am
4:00 am/5:00 am
5:00 am/6:00 am
6:00 am/7:00 am
7:00 am/8:00 am
8:00 am/9:00 am
9:00 am/10:00 am
10:00 am/11:00 am
11:00 am/12:00 am

PM would follow in suit. So, if TH's phone bill did not adjust for DST and the call shows 2:24 pm, then the actual time was 1:24 pm. Likewise, if TH's phone bill showed 4:35 pm the actual time would be 3:35 pm. So, IF the bus driver and the propane guy really saw TH at SA's, then it was around the same time the 4:35 pm call came in.

By the way Missy--the spreadsheet on stevenavery.org is a printout from a database, the hubby being a programmer uses them all the time. The spreadsheet referred to in testimony would be the document KK prepared.

Also, I have to agree with Missy--GZ & JZ didn't have a clue what time TH got there--they may have had one too many cocktails by then to know what the true time was.

 

[missy1974]

good evening BCA ;-) I think you are right about it being the spreadsheet.... and possibly the other phone records (Cellcom person looking at Cingular records). All of that phone testimony was a hot mess LOL

 

[ZOOL]

<sbm>.....
Also, I have to agree with Missy--GZ & JZ didn't have a clue what time TH got there--they may have had one too many cocktails by then to know what the true time was.

BCA ~ I find it interesting in Dedering's 11/03/16 report of his meeting with Zipperers that he mentions the voice mail Caller ID-time to Zipperer at 2:12 pm, then he continues and writes that Teresa states (at 2:15 pm) that she "...will be there in a few minutes." Consequently, it appears as if Teresa places herself at Zipperers sometime "within minutes" shortly before then going to Avery's.

Whatever confusion is in Jolleen's mind about Teresa's time of arrival is much clearer when we simply accept Teresa in her own words.

With regard to Dedering's report...I have little reason to believe that he would fudge the two times, as it would take a very, quick-thinking, devious mind to put two-and-two together and begin a conspiracy right then and there on Nov. 3.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

BCA ~ I find it interesting in Dedering's 11/03/16 report of his meeting with Zipperers that he mentions the voice mail Caller ID-time to Zipperer at 2:12 pm, then he continues and writes that Teresa states (at 2:15 pm) that she "...will be there in a few minutes." Consequently, it appears as if Teresa places herself at Zipperers sometime "within minutes" shortly before then going to Avery's.

Whatever confusion is in Jolleen's mind about Teresa's time of arrival is much clearer when we simply accept Teresa in her own words.

With regard to Dedering's report...I have little reason to believe that he would fudge the two times, as it would take a very, quick-thinking, devious mind to put two-and-two together and begin a conspiracy right then and there on Nov. 3.

Yes, I do believe you are correct--However please note, I had mentioned that PRIOR to Missy posting that thread--everything is crystal clear when hindsight is 20/20.

 

[missy1974]

BCA ~ I find it interesting in Dedering's 11/03/16 report of his meeting with Zipperers that he mentions the voice mail Caller ID-time to Zipperer at 2:12 pm, then he continues and writes that Teresa states (at 2:15 pm) that she "...will be there in a few minutes." Consequently, it appears as if Teresa places herself at Zipperers sometime "within minutes" shortly before then going to Avery's.

Whatever confusion is in Jolleen's mind about Teresa's time of arrival is much clearer when we simply accept Teresa in her own words.

With regard to Dedering's report...I have little reason to believe that he would fudge the two times, as it would take a very, quick-thinking, devious mind to put two-and-two together and begin a conspiracy right then and there on Nov. 3.

I doubt he would fudge the times too. It's nice to see in writing that someone did listen to and record this message. Am I the only one surprised that they didn't play it in the trial?



If this is correct, she said she "hoped to do so in the next few minutes" in regards to finding it. To me... that is not confirmation that she did indeed find it in a few minutes. Unless she said in the message, oh nevermind, just found it LOL (come to think of it... this is probably why they didn't play it in the trial)

By the way... I think I am past thinking that Zipperer could have done anything to TH, I'm thinking he would have been too drunk :giggle: But I am still not convinced about who came first.... the chicken or the egg ;-)