PLEA DEAL REACHED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #109

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  • #561
I had heard rumors that the DD driver was female, which is exactly why I’d be surprised if Xana asked her to walk around the back in the dark at 4 am to drop off her order.

Anyway, if the DD driver parked next to BK, it had to be during one of his prior loops around the house. She had an alibi, after all, during the time of the murders. Sitting in a car next to 1122 King Rd while BK slaughtered four humans wouldn’t cut it.

IMO
I absolutely can see the scenario where a drunken, famished, college-aged female, orders food without a single thought of the DD drivers gender or safety. In fact the existence of the opposite scenario seems highly unlikely to me. MOO.
 
  • #562
The prosecution says that the DD receipt corroborates its witnesses’ testimony.

So who are these witnesses? DM and BF (because it supports their claim that the murders occurred after 4 am), and the DD driver herself?

View attachment 598608

Source: States Reply to Defendants Objection to MIL RE Self Authentication of Records
Could XK be her own witness? Logging in, ordering, paying, maybe submitting an immediate review?

Just a thought.

By witnesses, plural, in thinking multiple. The DD driver, a DD manager or someone to authenticate, DM or BF if they have anything to add about it, etc.

JMO
 
  • #563
I’ve spent the weekend catching up on all the developments in this case ahead of August. Phew, this is going to be a long trial.
 
  • #564
The same jurors that may be asked, in the sentencing phase, to extend sympathy and grace to BK for having, and overcoming, a past history of heroin use and addiction, may also extend that same sympathy and grace to the poor DD driver, who may have been battling her own demons with opioid use, due to a claim of Fibromyalgia and severe arthritis. The DD driver who was out that early morning, not stargazing, but working, that may be called to provide key evidence that places BK at the scene of the murders, at the time of the murders. Any attempt by AT to paint her as an unbelievable, whacked-out druggie may come back to bite her in the tuckus. JMO
I don't believe AT will be allowed to bring that information in against the DD driver. It was well past the event.

JMO - please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
  • #565
I don't believe AT will be allowed to bring that information in against the DD driver. It was well past the event.

JMO - please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I think you are very likely right, but I can see her trying to wiggle her way into it by maybe asking the driver generaal questions about her eyesight, her ability to see well in the dark, her health, if she takes any medications for any conditions that could affect her judgement, etc? I hope that she cannot. JMO
 
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  • #566
Could XK be her own witness? Logging in, ordering, paying, maybe submitting an immediate review?

Just a thought.

By witnesses, plural, in thinking multiple. The DD driver, a DD manager or someone to authenticate, DM or BF if they have anything to add about it, etc.

JMO

Yes, when I first read the paragraph about the DD order, I didn’t see the plural possessive, witnesses’, nor did I pay attention to the fact that it says the DD receipt provides a timeline for XK before the homicides and corroborates State’s witnesses’ testimony.

IMG_3216.webp
Source

I want to know if the DD driver, MM, will actually testify.

The DD receipt is self-authenticating, so MM wouldn’t necessarily have to testify that she dropped off the food at 3:59 am and snapped the photo.

MM will, however, have to testify if the DD receipt will also be used to corroborate her testimony that she saw BK’s car.

Unfortunately, I still don’t see how MM could have seen BK himself, at least enough to ID him, since, according to the Hippler (via the State):

D.M., a roommate of the victims in this case, was the sole eyewitness to the intruder believed to have carried out the homicides at 1122 King Road.
Source

If anyone can figure out how both can be true (MM saw and can ID Kohberger and the sole eyewitness is DM), please tell us here, because I would LOVE for MM to be another person who saw BK, but without a mask on.

Is there some clever lawyer-speak that makes this possible? Because I don’t think the State will allow MM to testify that she saw BK himself unless she told them that soon after the murders.

Of course, if MM can testify that she saw a white car next to the murder house with no front license plate, a PA back license plate, and the silhouette of a man within the car, then that would be pretty good testimony, wouldn’t it?

IMOO
 
  • #567
I absolutely can see the scenario where a drunken, famished, college-aged female, orders food without a single thought of the DD drivers gender or safety. In fact the existence of the opposite scenario seems highly unlikely to me. MOO.

Well, Xana had a reputation for being super-friendly with the moms she met. DM wrote the following about Xana:

She loved the parents. Especially the moms. Every tailgate, she would talk to a new mom, get their phone numbers and text them.

Source: TikTok: Pastor reads letters by DM and BF at the University of Idaho Memorial Service

Perhaps Xana craved mother figures in her life since she grew up without an engaged mother herself.

If Xana had a habit of ordering JITB in the wee hours of the morning, MM may have been her DD driver before. Regardless, Xana may have noticed other mothers who worked as late-night/early morning DD drivers so they could be home during the day with their kids.

I think Xana, at least, might be on the look out for these women’s safety. Maybe she even watched out through a window to make sure the driver safely delivered her DD order, or even went out to collect it, as @Megnut speculated:

If XK was texting the DDD, there may have been a level of comfort -- especially since the white car drove away -- maybe XK came out the slider and met the DDD at any point between the front door and the slider.

JMO

IMOO

ETA:

I highly recommend watching the TikTok video linked above. It’s very touching and one of the many reasons I can’t stand what some people on SM say about DM (and BF).

If you don’t use TikTok, you can see the pastor, Chris, read DM’s and BF’s letters to their slain friends on this YouTube Video:

Start at 1:26:53
 
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  • #568
Yes, when I first read the paragraph about the DD order, I didn’t see the plural possessive, witnesses’, nor did I pay attention to the fact that it says the DD receipt provides a timeline for XK before the homicides and corroborates State’s witnesses’ testimony.

View attachment 598660
Source

I want to know if the DD driver, MM, will actually testify.

The DD receipt is self-authenticating, so MM wouldn’t necessarily have to testify that she dropped off the food at 3:59 am and snapped the photo.

MM will, however, have to testify if the DD receipt will also be used to corroborate her testimony that she saw BK’s car.

Unfortunately, I still don’t see how MM could have seen BK himself, at least enough to ID him, since, according to the Hippler (via the State):


Source

If anyone can figure out how both can be true (MM saw and can ID Kohberger and the sole eyewitness is DM), please tell us here, because I would LOVE for MM to be another person who saw BK, but without a mask on.

Is there some clever lawyer-speak that makes this possible? Because I don’t think the State will allow MM to testify that she saw BK himself unless she told them that soon after the murders.

Of course, if MM can testify that she saw a white car next to the murder house with no front license plate, a PA back license plate, and the silhouette of a man within the car, then that would be pretty good testimony, wouldn’t it?

IMOO
DM is the sole witness to the INTRUDER. The person in the house. The DD driver could be a witness to someone she saw outside. Seeing someone outside of a house does not = "intruder", though they could be the same person.

Doesn't mean the DD driver saw a person, of course, just that if they did, they were not an "Intruder" at that point.
 
  • #569
DM is the sole witness to the INTRUDER. The person in the house. The DD driver could be a witness to someone she saw outside. Seeing someone outside of a house does not = "intruder", though they could be the same person.

Doesn't mean the DD driver saw a person, of course, just that if they did, they were not an "Intruder" at that point.

True, but Ashley Jennings said the following at the Motions Hearing on April 9, 2025:

DM’s the only living individual who saw the person responsible for these four homicides.

Motions Hearing (Time: 4:20:27 to 4:20:32)

I included Jennings’ and Judge Hippler’s quotes in this post about the topic (you have to click the link to the original post to see their quotes in blue boxes):

OK, everyone. Here’s a screenshot of the transcript from the above YouTube video by Angenette Levy:

View attachment 598108
Well, Ashley Jennings, who is one of the prosecuting attorneys, also said this during the open Motion Hearing on April 9, 2025:


Time: 4:20:27 to 4:20:32

How does the idea that the DoorDasher, MM, actually saw Bryan fit with this statement by Ashley Jennings? Perhaps MM just meant that she saw Bryan’s car the morning of the murders?

Levy also says in her video that law enforcement hasn’t even confirmed that MM is the DD driver due to the gag order, but other news sources (Brian Entin for one) have said MM checks out.

Anyway, Levy’s interview with the “court-appointed counsel” Philip Dubé shows her skepticism of MM’s motives and may fuel attacks on MM by the Probergers.

IMO

ETA: Judge Hippler backs up Jennings in his subsequent April 18, 2025 Order on Defendants Motion in Limine RE Witness Identification by Bushy Eyebrows:

Even if the DD driver only saw BK’s car and has a good description, that would be fantastic!

ETA:

I don’t think the DD driver lied, by the way, when she said she “saw Bryan.”

At the Motions Hearing, Ashley Jennings was responding to the Defense’s request to disallow DM’s testimony about BK’s bushy eyebrows.

When Jennings said DM “saw” BK, she meant DM saw BK walking towards her. When the DD driver said she “saw” BK, she could have meant she saw his car and maybe his silhouette inside the car.

IMO
 
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  • #570
True, but Ashley Jennings said the following at the Motions Hearing on April 9, 2025:



Motions Hearing (Time: 4:20:27 to 4:20:32)

I included Jennings’ and Judge Hippler’s quotes in this post about the topic (you have to click the link to the original post to see their quotes in blue boxes):



Even if the DD driver only saw BK’s car and has a good description, that would be fantastic!

ETA:

I don’t think the DD driver lied, by the way, when she said she “saw Bryan.”

At the Motions Hearing, Ashley Jennings was responding to the Defense’s request to disallow DM’s testimony about BK’s bushy eyebrows.

When Jennings said DM “saw” BK, she meant DM saw BK walking towards her. When the DD driver said she “saw” BK, she could have meant she saw his car and maybe his silhouette inside the car.

IMO
Once again, though. Even if the DDD saw someone in or out of a car, she most likely did not see that person go IN the house. There were a lot of people not in the house moving around (there's a video out there of some person in an SUV heading out from an apartment complex around that time). If the DDD saw an actual person outside of the house, she could not testify to that person beiing IN the house and the killer unless she saw that person go in the house. So it is not possible for her to say the person she saw did anything. Could she describe the person and by circumstantial evidence it be inferred it is the same person? Yes. But she didn't (likely) see anyone go into or come out of the house.

Is it double speak? Kind of but not really. In all reality, DM only saw a strange person in the house at the time of the murders. Someone has to prove that was the killer, so Ashley was not exactly correct in the verbiage she used. Saying something isn't proof of anything. Just saying. All MOO, based on the several years I worked in an office with various attorneys. I think Ashley misspoke (because nothing has been proven that what DM saw was the killer. But Occam's Razor.) to start with, and that the DDD can only testify to what she saw OUTSIDE of the house.
 
  • #571
Yes, when I first read the paragraph about the DD order, I didn’t see the plural possessive, witnesses’, nor did I pay attention to the fact that it says the DD receipt provides a timeline for XK before the homicides and corroborates State’s witnesses’ testimony.

View attachment 598660
Source

I want to know if the DD driver, MM, will actually testify.

The DD receipt is self-authenticating, so MM wouldn’t necessarily have to testify that she dropped off the food at 3:59 am and snapped the photo.

MM will, however, have to testify if the DD receipt will also be used to corroborate her testimony that she saw BK’s car.

Unfortunately, I still don’t see how MM could have seen BK himself, at least enough to ID him, since, according to the Hippler (via the State):


Source

If anyone can figure out how both can be true (MM saw and can ID Kohberger and the sole eyewitness is DM), please tell us here, because I would LOVE for MM to be another person who saw BK, but without a mask on.

Is there some clever lawyer-speak that makes this possible? Because I don’t think the State will allow MM to testify that she saw BK himself unless she told them that soon after the murders.

Of course, if MM can testify that she saw a white car next to the murder house with no front license plate, a PA back license plate, and the silhouette of a man within the car, then that would be pretty good testimony, wouldn’t it?

IMOO

I believe that she has to testify.

Self authenticating just means that the records provided can be entered in as evidence without having to have the official custodian of that record (usually the person who signed the Certificate of Authenticity...we've seen the one for the AT&T records, for example) come to trial, get up on the stand for all of 1 minute to be sworn in and say "yes, I swear that these records are the real records provided by the company I work for."

Now, in some cases in SOME jurisdictions, like the Murdaugh murder trial, the Defense can refuse to stipulate to have this evidence presented at trial without the custodian of records who provided that certificate of authenticity doing just that. It can really add to the length and expense of a trial since generally the custodian of records for big companies don't live locally and they get generally get their travel and accommodations paid for by the side that is summoning them. Most of the time, defense doesn't do that unless they are wanting to be huge *!*&!) (which, Murdaugh's defense team infamously took pride in being)....because it really annoys the judge, but more importantly, it annoys the jury and takes up more of their time.

But in order for the evidence in those documents to then be presented and examined at trial, someone has to actually be testifying in a discussion of them. For example, FBI Agent Ballance will be talking about the AT&T records and how he used them in investigation, and what conclusions he drew. Then he can be cross examined. The security camera footage that shows MM & KG out and about before the murders and provides a timeline for their evening will be discussed by a member of LE. It is possible that if there was bartender who worked at Corner Club that night who is familiar with MM & KG due to them frequenting the place, that person may be called to testify as to the girls' general demeanor when they were there that night, if the bartender noticed anyone suspicious/unknown/unusual in the bar while the girls were there or hanging around them/staring at them repeatedly/etc.

Now, if Door Dash had happened earlier in the timeline, like 3 a.m., it would probably just be discussed by LE while establishing the timeline (pretend example: we know XK was awake at 3 am because records show she ordered JIB from DD, we found an empty JIB bag in the kitchen with a receipt that matches her DD order date/time stamp, and as already discussed by the coroner there was undigested food consistent with her order found in her digestive tract).

But because we have the DD happening so VERY close in time to the believed entry of the murderer, and because security camera footage shows what appears to be the believed suspect's vehicle in the immediate area right around the time of the delivery (and I would have to think the DD driver's vehicle shows up on some of the same security cameras), AND the DD driver is able to testify for themself at trial (they aren't dead, severely physically incapacitated and in the hospital, or highly mentally incapacitated), the State is going to absolutely want to have the DD driver on the stand. Especially because while the DD records tell time of delivery, none of the security camera coverage (that we know about) shows a direct view of the front of 1122 King itself. So they need the DD driver to talk about things that aren't in the DD records--when you approached the house, what lights were on that you could see? Was there much traffic on the roads in the neighborhood? Did you see a white car near the house as you approached/parked?Did you hear any sounds when you walked up to the house, either inside or out? If the records show that instead of dropping it at a door and taking a picture, you actually hand delivered it to someone, who did you give it to? What door? What was that person's general demeanor? As you walked back to your car/drove out of the neighborhood, did you notice any traffic in the neighborhood? If so, can you describe?

I honestly don't think that DD driver saw BK--as in, saw his face, could identify him in a line up. That would have been discussed in the court documents before now.

But if the person in the YT video is the actual DD driver, I think we have to take her words during a police interview when she brought in 2 yrs later for a different situation and was highly upset as a type of shorthand we all use when trying to quickly summarize something to another person without having to go into all the details. AKA--slightly exaggerated and fairly broad.

To me, her saying something like "I saw him" doesn't mean she saw even his face in an identifiable way. It probably means, I saw the silhouette of a person in a car. How can she say to the police in the YT police questioning that she knows it was him? Well, she depending on what she told the police during the investigation of the murders--what she did see could have been corroborated to her by the police or through things that have come out in media since that she has seen/read/watched.

I.E.--say in her initial interviews with police in Nov/Dec 2022, she tells the police that something like wht you said above in your last sentences--she saw a white 4 door sedan with only a rear plate parked or stopped near the house (somewhere in the nearby vicinity of her car, either while she was in her car or while she was walking to/from the house). Then, sometime after the interview, she sees the BOLO for a white Elantra and realizes that the police think the killer was in that car (I imagine she would have been following the case in the media or online at that point). At that point (whether the car had made her uneasy back when she saw it that night or not) she realizes that the car/silhouette she likely saw was the killer. So, her saying "I saw Bryan" when talking to police in her 2024 run in with the law can mean I saw the car that I later found out police believe BK was driving/so he was in it. So, DM is the only witness to actual intruder, DD driver is a witness to a vehicle that is believed to have been driven by him.

As to "I parked right next to him"--again, can be mild hyperbole in an emotional state while talking to police in 2024 when she thinks she's going to be in trouble with the law. It's shorthand. I'm not going to even try to parse what exactly it could mean.
 
  • #572
I believe that she has to testify.

Self authenticating just means that the records provided can be entered in as evidence without having to have the official custodian of that record (usually the person who signed the Certificate of Authenticity...we've seen the one for the AT&T records, for example) come to trial, get up on the stand for all of 1 minute to be sworn in and say "yes, I swear that these records are the real records provided by the company I work for."

Now, in some cases in SOME jurisdictions, like the Murdaugh murder trial, the Defense can refuse to stipulate to have this evidence presented at trial without the custodian of records who provided that certificate of authenticity doing just that. It can really add to the length and expense of a trial since generally the custodian of records for big companies don't live locally and they get generally get their travel and accommodations paid for by the side that is summoning them. Most of the time, defense doesn't do that unless they are wanting to be huge *!*&!) (which, Murdaugh's defense team infamously took pride in being)....because it really annoys the judge, but more importantly, it annoys the jury and takes up more of their time.

But in order for the evidence in those documents to then be presented and examined at trial, someone has to actually be testifying in a discussion of them. For example, FBI Agent Ballance will be talking about the AT&T records and how he used them in investigation, and what conclusions he drew. Then he can be cross examined. The security camera footage that shows MM & KG out and about before the murders and provides a timeline for their evening will be discussed by a member of LE. It is possible that if there was bartender who worked at Corner Club that night who is familiar with MM & KG due to them frequenting the place, that person may be called to testify as to the girls' general demeanor when they were there that night, if the bartender noticed anyone suspicious/unknown/unusual in the bar while the girls were there or hanging around them/staring at them repeatedly/etc.

Now, if Door Dash had happened earlier in the timeline, like 3 a.m., it would probably just be discussed by LE while establishing the timeline (pretend example: we know XK was awake at 3 am because records show she ordered JIB from DD, we found an empty JIB bag in the kitchen with a receipt that matches her DD order date/time stamp, and as already discussed by the coroner there was undigested food consistent with her order found in her digestive tract).

But because we have the DD happening so VERY close in time to the believed entry of the murderer, and because security camera footage shows what appears to be the believed suspect's vehicle in the immediate area right around the time of the delivery (and I would have to think the DD driver's vehicle shows up on some of the same security cameras), AND the DD driver is able to testify for themself at trial (they aren't dead, severely physically incapacitated and in the hospital, or highly mentally incapacitated), the State is going to absolutely want to have the DD driver on the stand. Especially because while the DD records tell time of delivery, none of the security camera coverage (that we know about) shows a direct view of the front of 1122 King itself. So they need the DD driver to talk about things that aren't in the DD records--when you approached the house, what lights were on that you could see? Was there much traffic on the roads in the neighborhood? Did you see a white car near the house as you approached/parked?Did you hear any sounds when you walked up to the house, either inside or out? If the records show that instead of dropping it at a door and taking a picture, you actually hand delivered it to someone, who did you give it to? What door? What was that person's general demeanor? As you walked back to your car/drove out of the neighborhood, did you notice any traffic in the neighborhood? If so, can you describe?

I honestly don't think that DD driver saw BK--as in, saw his face, could identify him in a line up. That would have been discussed in the court documents before now.

But if the person in the YT video is the actual DD driver, I think we have to take her words during a police interview when she brought in 2 yrs later for a different situation and was highly upset as a type of shorthand we all use when trying to quickly summarize something to another person without having to go into all the details. AKA--slightly exaggerated and fairly broad.

To me, her saying something like "I saw him" doesn't mean she saw even his face in an identifiable way. It probably means, I saw the silhouette of a person in a car. How can she say to the police in the YT police questioning that she knows it was him? Well, she depending on what she told the police during the investigation of the murders--what she did see could have been corroborated to her by the police or through things that have come out in media since that she has seen/read/watched.

I.E.--say in her initial interviews with police in Nov/Dec 2022, she tells the police that something like wht you said above in your last sentences--she saw a white 4 door sedan with only a rear plate parked or stopped near the house (somewhere in the nearby vicinity of her car, either while she was in her car or while she was walking to/from the house). Then, sometime after the interview, she sees the BOLO for a white Elantra and realizes that the police think the killer was in that car (I imagine she would have been following the case in the media or online at that point). At that point (whether the car had made her uneasy back when she saw it that night or not) she realizes that the car/silhouette she likely saw was the killer. So, her saying "I saw Bryan" when talking to police in her 2024 run in with the law can mean I saw the car that I later found out police believe BK was driving/so he was in it. So, DM is the only witness to actual intruder, DD driver is a witness to a vehicle that is believed to have been driven by him.

As to "I parked right next to him"--again, can be mild hyperbole in an emotional state while talking to police in 2024 when she thinks she's going to be in trouble with the law. It's shorthand. I'm not going to even try to parse what exactly it could mean.
These are pretty much my thoughts on the DD video. I don't think the driver will be utilised to ID BK. I'm likewise taking what she said as knowledge after the fact given the circumstances. The docs indicate she dropped off the food at 4am, which is around 7 minutes before BK parked for the last time prior to entering 1122. For sure I'm not taking the words parked 'next to' literally given the context in which they were uttered. Ditto for 'I saw Bryan'; imo this likely means she realised later she saw the vehicle. I think it's likely to be one of those situs where she was understandably horrified to discover that the white sedan she momentarily noticed up the road as she parked out front to drop off the order turned out to be the killer. Jmo
 
  • #573
Once again, though. Even if the DDD saw someone in or out of a car, she most likely did not see that person go IN the house. There were a lot of people not in the house moving around (there's a video out there of some person in an SUV heading out from an apartment complex around that time). If the DDD saw an actual person outside of the house, she could not testify to that person beiing IN the house and the killer unless she saw that person go in the house. So it is not possible for her to say the person she saw did anything. Could she describe the person and by circumstantial evidence it be inferred it is the same person? Yes. But she didn't (likely) see anyone go into or come out of the house.

Is it double speak? Kind of but not really. In all reality, DM only saw a strange person in the house at the time of the murders. Someone has to prove that was the killer, so Ashley was not exactly correct in the verbiage she used. Saying something isn't proof of anything. Just saying. All MOO, based on the several years I worked in an office with various attorneys. I think Ashley misspoke (because nothing has been proven that what DM saw was the killer. But Occam's Razor.) to start with, and that the DDD can only testify to what she saw OUTSIDE of the house.

Well, that’s why I asked about “lawyer-speak.” 😊

Ashley Jennings may have misspoken during the April 9, 2025 Motions Hearing when she said:

DM’s the only living individual who saw the person responsible for these four homicides.

However, she wrote something very similar before the hearing, on March 17, 2025:

IMG_3219.webp
Source

Of course, Judge Hippler did change the wording of Jennings’ statements in his own statement after the hearing, on April 18, 2025:

D.M., a roommate of the victims in this case, was the sole eyewitness to the intruder believed to have carried out the homicides at 1122 King Road.
IMG_3220.webp
Source

IANAL, so I’ll trust your knowledge and experience, @Ghostwheel, and will try to avoid being at least annoyingly argumentative. I’m relieved there is a way to interpret what was said at the hearing and in court documents that allows the DD driver to be an eyewitness to a man (not just his car or silouette) outside the house at 1122 King Road right before the murder that could very well be the same man DM saw inside the house right after the murders—a single man whose initials, I believe, are B.K.

IMOO
 
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  • #574
Yes, when I first read the paragraph about the DD order, I didn’t see the plural possessive, witnesses’, nor did I pay attention to the fact that it says the DD receipt provides a timeline for XK before the homicides and corroborates State’s witnesses’ testimony.

View attachment 598660
Source

I want to know if the DD driver, MM, will actually testify.

The DD receipt is self-authenticating, so MM wouldn’t necessarily have to testify that she dropped off the food at 3:59 am and snapped the photo.

MM will, however, have to testify if the DD receipt will also be used to corroborate her testimony that she saw BK’s car.

Unfortunately, I still don’t see how MM could have seen BK himself, at least enough to ID him,
I doubt she would be able to identify the driver as being BK himself.

But I do think she might be able to testify that she saw a white male with dark hair, looked to be in his 20's to 30's.

If the speculation is true, about her pulling in and being parked next to BK's car, I think she could see him well enough to describe him in general terms. IMO

 
  • #575
I doubt she would be able to identify the driver as being BK himself.

But I do think she might be able to testify that she saw a white male with dark hair, looked to be in his 20's to 30's.

If the speculation is true, about her pulling in and being parked next to BK's car, I think she could see him well enough to describe him in general terms. IMO
Also, what I'd really like to know is if the DDD saw Xana looking out the window and is able to verify it was Xana and not DM or BF.
 
  • #576
Also, what I'd really like to know is if the DDD saw Xana looking out the window and is able to verify it was Xana and not DM or BF.
Is your thinking the following:

If the DD driver saw Xana and not DM or BF at the window, this supports the State’s timeline of the murders and refutes the Defense’s possible earlier timeline (and the Defense’s innuendo that perhaps DM and BF are at least complicit in the murders).

This would indeed be helpful for the State, but I also want to know if the DD driver saw Xana for another reason:

If the DD driver saw Xana, then BK may have seen her, too, but he entered the house less than 15 minutes later anyway. This would indicate that his mission was, from the start, to murder his target(s) and anyone in the way (unless, of course, Xana was also his target).

IMOO
 
  • #577
In those horrific few days when the case had first broken in the media, myself and a lot of others had their eye on the frat boys and surrounding residents - close proximity, personal relationships, etc.

Then EVERYTHING else happened. The arrest affidavit, the knife evidence, the DNA evidence, the search warrant, and I felt shocked and ashamed I’d ever imagined this was done by someone in their peer group or surrounding neighbourhood.

AT obviously doesn’t share these sentiments. Haven’t they gone through enough?

MOO
 
  • #578
Well, that’s why I asked about “lawyer-speak.” 😊

Ashley Jennings may have misspoken during the April 9, 2025 Motions Hearing when she said:



However, she wrote something very similar before the hearing, on March 17, 2025:

View attachment 598705
Source

Of course, Judge Hippler did change the wording of Jennings’ statements in his own statement after the hearing, on April 18, 2025:


View attachment 598707
Source

IANAL, so I’ll trust your knowledge and experience, @Ghostwheel, and will try to avoid being at least annoyingly argumentative. I’m relieved there is a way to interpret what was said at the hearing and in court documents that allows the DD driver to be an eyewitness to a man (not just his car or silouette) outside the house at 1122 King Road right before the murder that could very well be the same man DM saw inside the house right after the murders—a single man whose initials, I believe, are B.K.

IMOO
You (the generic you) can't get stuck on words that are not in reports, and even then you have to be careful.

Don't break your bread or roll in your soup.

The first one "D.M. Is the only living person who saw the person responsible for the four homicides at 1122 King Rd on November 13, 2022."
can be interpreted as "D.M. Is the only living person at 1122 King Rd who saw the person responsible for the four homicides on November 13, 2022"
or as D.M. is the only living person who saw the person - "D.M. Is the only living person who saw the person responsible for the four homicides at 1122 King Rd on November 13, 2022."

That sentence is exactly the same as rolling in soup. It could mean either. And I'd be willing to bet that what Ashley said was written down, and therefore used in both places, in the doc and when she spoke.

AND to be exact
D.M. Is the only living person at 1122 King Rd who saw the person presumed to be responsible for the four homicides on November 13, 2022. If you want to be specific and exact.

Attorneys say and write all kinds of things. Was everything AT said true? I think not. Is everything that may be untrue intentional? I also think not. An attorney is writing and speaking from their own point of view. When you read these things, you kind of have to preface it with "The Prosecution/Defense intends to prove...." as opposed to "These words I am saying are a specific and exact accounting of actual facts in a report or document somewhere". Even a report is limited by opinions and verbology. One person's "Worst murder scene I have ever seen" would not be someone else's "Worst murder Scene I have ever seen".

To wrap up, 1) none of this was said in the trial since it hasn't started yet so it's just something someone said (and maybe believed). 2) The sentence can be interpreted more than one way 3) Judge Hippler himself recognized that she was the sole eyewitness who saw the "Intruder". Note he also says "believed to have carried out", specific words.

We all get to choose how we see things. The same words mean different things to different people. I am simply giving a good faith explanation as to why it COULD be that both are "true" as people said/wrote them. In their minds, they probably thought they were saying what Judge Hippler said.
 
  • #579
You (the generic you) can't get stuck on words that are not in reports, and even then you have to be careful.

Don't break your bread or roll in your soup.

The first one "D.M. Is the only living person who saw the person responsible for the four homicides at 1122 King Rd on November 13, 2022."
can be interpreted as "D.M. Is the only living person at 1122 King Rd who saw the person responsible for the four homicides on November 13, 2022"
or as D.M. is the only living person who saw the person - "D.M. Is the only living person who saw the person responsible for the four homicides at 1122 King Rd on November 13, 2022."

That sentence is exactly the same as rolling in soup. It could mean either. And I'd be willing to bet that what Ashley said was written down, and therefore used in both places, in the doc and when she spoke.

AND to be exact
D.M. Is the only living person at 1122 King Rd who saw the person presumed to be responsible for the four homicides on November 13, 2022. If you want to be specific and exact.

Attorneys say and write all kinds of things. Was everything AT said true? I think not. Is everything that may be untrue intentional? I also think not. An attorney is writing and speaking from their own point of view. When you read these things, you kind of have to preface it with "The Prosecution/Defense intends to prove...." as opposed to "These words I am saying are a specific and exact accounting of actual facts in a report or document somewhere". Even a report is limited by opinions and verbology. One person's "Worst murder scene I have ever seen" would not be someone else's "Worst murder Scene I have ever seen".

To wrap up, 1) none of this was said in the trial since it hasn't started yet so it's just something someone said (and maybe believed). 2) The sentence can be interpreted more than one way 3) Judge Hippler himself recognized that she was the sole eyewitness who saw the "Intruder". Note he also says "believed to have carried out", specific words.

We all get to choose how we see things. The same words mean different things to different people. I am simply giving a good faith explanation as to why it COULD be that both are "true" as people said/wrote them. In their minds, they probably thought they were saying what Judge Hippler said.

Yes, in my last post, I put Jennings’ statement during the Motion Hearing and Hippler’s statement in his court order in the blue quote boxes so I could directly compare them.

(Hippler added the words “intruder” and “believed to have carried out” in his court order.)

I should have added another blue quote box for Jennings’ statement in her court doc (I only highlighted it in a screenshot) since that statement did include the address of the murder house, which she omitted during the court hearing. So here are all three statements in the chronological order they were made:

Jennings on 03/17/25 (in this court doc):
D.M. is the only living person who saw the person responsible for the four homicides at 1122 King Road on November 13, 2022.

Jennings on 04/09/25 during the Motions Hearing:
DM’s the only living individual who saw the person responsible for these four homicides.

Hippler on 04/18/25 in this court doc:
D.M., a roommate of the victims in this case, was the sole eyewitness to the intruder believed to have carried out the homicides at 1122 King Road.

Even if we could interpret “at 1122 King Road” to mean that DM was at that address, the DD driver was presumably at the same address when she may have seen BK (or just his car). Perhaps she was on the side street or in the driveway, so that doesn’t count as the same address?

Look at me, continuing to roll in the soup. 😃

Anyway, this is why I’m skeptical of the tricky words of lawyers of any stripe and, frankly, LE.

It also reminds me of BK’s claim about crosswalks that he made during his Pullman traffic stop:

Yeh, where I’m from in Pennsylvania we don’t actually have crosswalks.
Source

I suppose we can wiggle around BK’s claim to make it true in at least one case (there are perhaps no crosswalks on the street he lived on in Albrightsville?), but it doesn’t mean he didn’t mislead the police officer.

Now, I understand that attorneys and LE have the end (justice) in mind—and not just getting out of a ticket, like BK—but I personally would prefer that they be more straight-forward in their written and spoken words in court hearings, sworn affidavits, and other court filings.

I guess it’s my own math bias, where our proofs are meant to illustrate, not hide, the truth, and a good proof is one that clarifies instead of obfuscates. (Now, that doesn’t mean mathematicians are always successful—you have to know the jargon and the rules to understand a proof, much like you have to understand the jargon and the rules to understand a legal brief or other court document, I suppose.)

I do, however, appreciate your reminder that language is subtle and, therefore, frequently ambiguous. Life is the same way, and this is part of what makes it beautiful, too. The Tolstoy quote in my signature is supposed to remind me of this each time I post here.
 
  • #580
RSBM

Even if we could interpret “at 1122 King Road” to mean that DM was at that address, the DD driver was presumably at the same address when she may have seen BK (or just his car). Perhaps she was on the side street or in the driveway, so that doesn’t count as the same address?
Therein is the difference between "Intruder" ( someone inside the house that is not normally or supposed to be there) vs not inside the house. At least as I read it based on people not using a whole lot of words where they assume fewer words will do. The word "at" means different things to different people. And yes, for all we know the DD driver had not yet gotten to the address when she saw BK/BK's car. If someone is parked to the side of my house, which is a different street than my street, are they "at" my house? They are if they get out and come to my property, but if they haven't? If they are stopped in front of my house are they "at" my house? One might says yes, one might say no. Semantics can be a real problem......

Again, this may be a moot point anyway. The DDD may not have seen a person at all. May have just seen a vehicle. May have just seen "bushy eyebrows". May have actually seen a license plate. We really have no idea. Whatever they haver to testify to, all they can do is say "I saw these things". They cannot say that whatever they saw had anything to do with the murders. Linking it up is the prosecution's job.

Words that are not part of a fact, IMO, are to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless someone is very, very careful about their words, what they say may not be exactly what is meant. How many people sleep in a queen size bed? Well, that depends on where you live and how you live. Maybe they really meant "How many people is a queen size bed designed for?"

I have my own bad habit of picking apart words simply because of this. I am wrong as often as right, but the truth usually comes out and that is all that matters, IMO.
 
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