RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[Venom]

Going with Blue Bottles theory, where does the prior molestation fit in? Could PR have caught, or suspected the abuse and then wanted to make JB "pure" again? Would that be part of her fantasy?

 

[tezi]

Throughout the day, Patsy's manner would change abruptly depending on the question. Inquieries about Access Graphics and John's bonus were met with "I really just don't know much about what goes on at work. ... I wasn't aware he got a bonus." Soft words, big doe eyes. All America knew that $118,000 figure, and she didn't? Asked about the ransom note being written on a pad from her home, the little-girl persona emerged. "It was? I didn't know that". She denied knowing anything about the "small foreign faction" mentioned in the note and said she "didn't have a clue" about the sign-off acronym, S.B.T.C. The woman was a chameleon.

That is SteveThomas encountering her dissociative behavior.

Hey, Blue Bottle, could you cite the page here? I don't want us getting into trouble...I don't have my book handy or I would. Thanks!!!

ETA: Nevermind...Here is the page number. It's page 167, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation. Hardback copy.

JMO:seeya:

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Going with Blue Bottles theory, where does the prior molestation fit in? Could PR have caught, or suspected the abuse and then wanted to make JB "pure" again? Would that be part of her fantasy?

Patsy was the abuser. I call it latent autoerotic stimulation by proxy. Some people do not go through the childhood or adolescent sexual arousal phase and never do or go through it later in life. Patsy compulsively touched JonBenet as she might have touched herself in her youth.

These things are seen as sins and Patsy's sacrifice of JonBenet and the resulting connection to a Heaven and a God create a perfectionist fantasy that assuages the guilt and shame of sin.

Patsy's actions were a psychotic attempt at redemption: extreme narcissism acting as the higher power instead of bowing to a higher power through self sacrifice.

 

[BBB167893]

I was just doing some googling and found this:

Psychosis (or psychotic symptoms) may also be found in:

Most people with schizophrenia
Some people with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive) or severe depression
Some personality disorders

from here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002520/#adam_001553.disease.symptoms

Just throwing some ideas around. Wouldn't you think that PR's family would have noticed something being off with her?

Even if they did, Venom, it's not uncommon for loved ones and friends to be in denial. A person is often dismissed as "eccentric," or something along those lines. Frankly, if it was that easy to spot, we wouldn't have so many problems in society with psychotic people.

Is there any links to any interviews with her friends/family in regards to how she was?

The only thing I can remember right now is John Andrew describing her as "flashy," I think it was.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

I'm incredibly interested in your scenario as i too have considered it a strong possibility Patsy acted alone, all alone.

I once considered Patsy wanted JonBenet there waiting for her arrival in heaven. Patsy didn't want to "go" alone.

The note .... I do believe it was staging, Patsy didn't want to go to prison.


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The reason the note is incomprehensilbe is it was written for Patsy not police. Had she gone to prison she would be a martyr with the same "out" of death to a heaven.

The host persona Patsy would always have the fantasy that she did not do it, the alter or alters did.

 

[tezi]

Even if they did, Venom, it's not uncommon for loved ones and friends to be in denial. A person is often dismissed as "eccentric," or something along those lines. Frankly, if it was that easy to spot, we wouldn't have so many problems in society with psychotic people.



The only thing I can remember right now is John Andrew describing her as "flashy," I think it was.

RBBM: SuperDave, and some of the "lunch bunch" in Atlanta said that if John and Patsy killed JonBenet it would be like Jekyll and Hyde. So, I think she acted somewhat "normal" in social situations. Of course that is my opinion.

JMO

 

[BOESP]

I've spent a good while trying to find a reference to Linda Hoffman-Pugh's comments that Patsy's personality had changed. Ms. H-P stated Patsy would be kind one minute and off the wall in the next. She said Patsy had been that way for several weeks (before JonBenet was killed). Sorry, I can not find the reference.

Also, iirc, Priscilla White stated that Patsy's close circle of friends intended to approach Patsy after Christmas about her behavior and the "Mega-Jonbenet" thing.

ETA: found the reference for Ms. H-P: http://www.rense.com/general11/benet.htm

"She said she told the grand jury that Patsy had become very moody right before Christmas of 1996. "I think she had multiple personalities. She'd be in a good mood and then she'd be cranky. She got into arguments with JonBenet about wearing a dress or about a friend coming over. I had never seen Patsy so upset."

 

[Venom]

Even if they did, Venom, it's not uncommon for loved ones and friends to be in denial. A person is often dismissed as "eccentric," or something along those lines. Frankly, if it was that easy to spot, we wouldn't have so many problems in society with psychotic people.



The only thing I can remember right now is John Andrew describing her as "flashy," I think it was.

You are right. I thought maybe someone noticed in hindsight.

It seems that LHP noticed a change in her in the weeks leading up to Christmas, of course that may have been her being under a lot of stress.

 

[Venom]

I was just reading through old posts and found this:

When the BPD turned to the FBI for an evaluation of the focus of their investigation, they agreed with the direction that was being taken in the case.
…they decided to consult with the FBI to get an overview of the case rather than put it together piecemeal as they had been doing so far. The FBI agreed to meet with the Boulder PD and members of the DA’s office at the Bureau’s headquarters in Quantico, Virginia, the first week of September. They said they would review all the evidence and give their expert opinion. Eight hundred pieces of physical evidence—including thirty-eight fingerprint cards—would be viewed by fresh eyes. The police wanted to know the FBI’s opinion about what physical evidence pointed to the Ramseys and whether the Bureau’s experts could map out the sequence of events surrounding the murder. Both the Boulder PD and the DA’s office wanted to hear the conclusions of the experts firsthand. Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 472

We had been invited to Quantico, Virginia, to give a full presentation to the Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit of the FBI, and we jumped at the opportunity. Having the CASKU experts hear and analyze your case was not an everyday thing for local cops.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 239-240

In turn, the CASKU agents noted that of the more than seventeen hundred murdered children they had studied since the 1960s, there was only one case in which the victim was a female under the age of twelve, who had been murdered in her home by strangulation, with sexual assault and a ransom note present—and that was JonBenét Ramsey.
They told us that while it might be possible that someone broke into the house that night, it wasn’t very probable. The staging, evidence, and totality of the case pointed in one direction—that this was not the act of an intruder.
The crime, they said, did not fit an act of sex or revenge or one in which money was the motivation. Taken alone, they said, each piece of evidence might be argued, but together, enough pebbles become a block of evidentiary granite.
These conclusions by the FBI’s highly respected profilers were exactly what I hoped would provide a breakthrough in the case, but Hofstrom, DeMuth, and Smit seemed unimpressed. They ignored CASKU, just as they ignored us. It felt like we were on a train to nowhere.
…
The crime was an incredibly risky one for an outsider to undertake, the profilers said, and was committed by someone who had a high degree of comfort inside the home. The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to “undo” the murder in one’s own mind.
Their bottom line was that there had never been a kidnapping attempt.
CASKU further said that placing JonBenét in the basement was consistent with a parent not wanting to put the body outside in the winter elements. The familiarity with and relocking of the peg on the white cellar door were noted. The ligatures, they said, indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim. They had the gut feeling that “no one intended to kill this child.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 241-242

 

[tezi]

You know what galls me the most about the trip to Quantico for CASKU to look at the case? It's how immature Trip DeMuth acted. The FBI should have tossed him out on his ear.

ST was right, the Vanity Fair article could not have came out at a worse time. But, that still didn't give DeMuth a reason to act like a ten year old kid.

IMO, DeMuth and Hofstrom just went to ridicule the BPD.

JMO

 

[DeDee]

There is a site that has the reasons listed implicating PR in the death of her daughter that I will locate when possible. Meanwhile, after years of pondering the aspects of this case, perhaps the staging isn't so glaring after all. That is, if it were premeditated right down to the actual death on Christmas December 25, 1996 then every item, almost every detail, was intentional and all functioned pretty much as planned. That gives JR innocence prior to and until the day of the 26th when he obviously displays JonBenet's lifeless body to his wife after he and FW get her from the cellar.

Perhaps, for months her twisted mind concocts the entire plot, as PW indicates PRs madness to have become, only PRs sweater fibers got twisted in the garrote knot of the white rope that she purchased earlier in the month on AmEx. She also purchased the day of the week panties while in NYC.

PR pleads: Find who did this to my baby while JR reveals: It's an inside job.

Perhaps the narcissistic PR carried misconceptions whirling around in her head and selfish heart for months. Medication and chemo brain were antagonistic. Her gorgeous and talented daughter was blooming, and rebelling; and she found herself a fading flower soon to be 6' under. JonBenet had the potential to become Miss America and Patsy would not live to witness it.

Doesn't this CASKU psychological profile piece fit with what Blue Bottle has been pointing out?

Quote from Venom's recent post:
"The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to “undo” the murder in one’s own mind."
<snip> JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 241-242

I saw a photo on WS of a match between train track and skin abrasion on neck some time ago. I think the experiment was performed by someone other than a WS. When time allows, will try to find it. Perhaps someone who also recalls that photo and the testing can access it quicker than I.

Over the weekend I located this link regarding the experiment concerning the abrasions. cynic's convincing work establishes that, indeed, the abrasive marks as stated in the AR align with the train tracks. Furthermore, cynic's brilliant work establishes a pattern of JonBenet receiving abrasions consistent with those in the past.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=193541&postcount=44"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Jim Kolar – 45 minute video discussing the JonBenet Ramsey Case[/ame]


The train track being used to torture JonBenet seems to implicate her brother. Now, just as I had come to the conclusion that PR premeditated the entire horrendous event, I understand why so many feel that BR had something to do with the evil events that unfolded in Boulder on Christmas night 1996. And maybe that is exactly what PR wants us to believe.



http://hauntedcolorado.net/JonBenet_Ramsey_House.html

The spacious 749 15th Street house; pre-2001, it was 755 15th Street, possesses untold evil and is listed on hauntedcolorado.com where there's a photo of the over 7200sq ft home with the finished basement as owned by Dr. Robert Shuller's daughter, Carol Milner who purchased it in 2004 for just over a million dollars.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I was just reading through old posts and found this:

When the BPD turned to the FBI for an evaluation of the focus of their investigation, they agreed with the direction that was being taken in the case.
&#8230;they decided to consult with the FBI to get an overview of the case rather than put it together piecemeal as they had been doing so far. The FBI agreed to meet with the Boulder PD and members of the DA&#8217;s office at the Bureau&#8217;s headquarters in Quantico, Virginia, the first week of September. They said they would review all the evidence and give their expert opinion. Eight hundred pieces of physical evidence&#8212;including thirty-eight fingerprint cards&#8212;would be viewed by fresh eyes. The police wanted to know the FBI&#8217;s opinion about what physical evidence pointed to the Ramseys and whether the Bureau&#8217;s experts could map out the sequence of events surrounding the murder. Both the Boulder PD and the DA&#8217;s office wanted to hear the conclusions of the experts firsthand. Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 472

We had been invited to Quantico, Virginia, to give a full presentation to the Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit of the FBI, and we jumped at the opportunity. Having the CASKU experts hear and analyze your case was not an everyday thing for local cops.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 239-240

In turn, the CASKU agents noted that of the more than seventeen hundred murdered children they had studied since the 1960s, there was only one case in which the victim was a female under the age of twelve, who had been murdered in her home by strangulation, with sexual assault and a ransom note present&#8212;and that was JonBenét Ramsey.
They told us that while it might be possible that someone broke into the house that night, it wasn&#8217;t very probable. The staging, evidence, and totality of the case pointed in one direction&#8212;that this was not the act of an intruder.
The crime, they said, did not fit an act of sex or revenge or one in which money was the motivation. Taken alone, they said, each piece of evidence might be argued, but together, enough pebbles become a block of evidentiary granite.
These conclusions by the FBI&#8217;s highly respected profilers were exactly what I hoped would provide a breakthrough in the case, but Hofstrom, DeMuth, and Smit seemed unimpressed. They ignored CASKU, just as they ignored us. It felt like we were on a train to nowhere.
&#8230;
The crime was an incredibly risky one for an outsider to undertake, the profilers said, and was committed by someone who had a high degree of comfort inside the home. The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to &#8220;undo&#8221; the murder in one&#8217;s own mind.
Their bottom line was that there had never been a kidnapping attempt.
CASKU further said that placing JonBenét in the basement was consistent with a parent not wanting to put the body outside in the winter elements. The familiarity with and relocking of the peg on the white cellar door were noted. The ligatures, they said, indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim. They had the gut feeling that &#8220;no one intended to kill this child.&#8221;JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 241-242

A violent head trauma and manual garrotting, and they didn't intend to kill her? What the?

Sounds kinda intentional to me! :waitasec:

 

[Venom]

A violent head trauma and manual garrotting, and they didn't intend to kill her? What the?

Sounds kinda intentional to me! :waitasec:

Maybe they're getting at the head trauma was accidental and the rest a cover up. :dunno:

I thought the part I bolded was interesting and kind of went along with Blue Bottle's theory.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Even if they did, Venom, it's not uncommon for loved ones and friends to be in denial. A person is often dismissed as "eccentric," or something along those lines. Frankly, if it was that easy to spot, we wouldn't have so many problems in society with psychotic people.



The only thing I can remember right now is John Andrew describing her as "flashy," I think it was.

I would use the word "histrionic"....but heck, that's me.

 

[Venom]

I would use the word "hystrionic"....but heck, that's me.

Yes. That seems to fit her. JMO

 

[tezi]

Yes. That seems to fit her. JMO

Yes, it does.

JMO

 

[FrayedKnot]

RBBM: SuperDave, and some of the "lunch bunch" in Atlanta said that if John and Patsy killed JonBenet it would be like Jekyll and Hyde. So, I think she acted somewhat "normal" in social situations. Of course that is my opinion.

JMO

Although the murmurings I heard (whilst slaving for non-profit wages amongst the ladies who lunch) in Atlanta were that Patsy was always considered "too much" and a "climber". And I have stated before that BR was given a wide berth by their children because of his unusual (IDK which) behaviors.

The Ramseys were not Atlanta insiders.

Although in all fairness, one can live their whole life in Atlanta but if they are not born there, they are not an Atlantan. Heck, I WAS born there, raised elsewhere and moved back as a young adult, had my DD at Piedmont Hospital on Peachtree Street and was NEVER considered an Atlantan. :truce:

 

[tezi]

Although the murmurings I heard (whilst slaving for non-profit wages amongst the ladies who lunch) in Atlanta were that Patsy was always considered "too much" and a "climber". And I have stated before that BR was given a wide berth by their children because of his unusual (IDK which) behaviors.

The Ramseys were not Atlanta insiders.

Although in all fairness, one can live their whole life in Atlanta but if they are not born there, they are not an Atlantan. Heck, I WAS born there, raised elsewhere and moved back as a young adult, had my DD at Piedmont Hospital on Peachtree Street and was NEVER considered an Atlantan. :truce:

I don't really think they were Boulder insiders either. I think that JR's money did a lot of talking, but they sure did hightail it out of there. And I wonder about Michigan?

JMO

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I don't really think they were Boulder insiders either. I think that JR's money did a lot of talking, but they sure did hightail it out of there. And I wonder about Michigan?

JMO

I think I read that the home in Charlevoix was owned by John's father. If so, the family's been living there for decades.

 

[Chelly]

I don't really think they were Boulder insiders either. I think that JR's money did a lot of talking, but they sure did hightail it out of there. And I wonder about Michigan?

JMO

I wonder if they really fit in anywhere? Perhaps they were unlikeable.