Retrial for Sentencing of Jodi Arias - 12/11-14 ~weekend~

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  • #261
I also think you're right Hope in that tampering of the copies won't amount to much since the actual eviedence is still intact and since they can't prove when or how the deletions happened neither side can be blamed for it. It does help Juan solidify his case that he's not the one that did anything wrong.

But it does appear that someone used Incinerator, possibly on an image, to remove something from it so they could provide that data to BN and he could run with it since he's an actual expert. But when an image was asked to be provided to the state they attempted to delete it first so the state couldn't see it. But it was there anyway in a recycle bin that couldn't have been on Travis' hard drive. This is just a theory but I think that's what Juan is saying. But until he gets the original image that was made to do this work he can't be certain. I'd also be curious to know if BN provided the raw data he was asked for.

It's also a bit odd that Travis' hard drive doesn't work anymore. That also can't be proven to be the defense expert's fault. But it was working when the experts made their copies and now it just clicks.
 
  • #262
IIRC, Estrella Jailmates are not permitted access to news of any kind. I don't believe they get newspapers. For TV, they get the FoodNetwork and that's about it.

They can receive/purchase newspaper and magazine subscriptions
 
  • #263
Perhaps that's what he's disclosing. That he didn't actually work on the hard drive, someone else did then he just viewed the data. And that's why he doesn't know what Incinerator is and why he's not responsible for it.

When anyone, private or law enforcement, just anyone, hires someone to find out what is on a computer, the question they need to ask, know, have in writing, signed, dated etc....is WHO will be working on the computer, WHAT is there background to work on it. I am sure WS can think of a lot more questions. Just because you talk to the counter person, who you may have hired before, does not mean he is to work on the computer, so how can he answer trial questions, how can he work on the computer if his expertise is in a different area?! There should be also be a paper trail of time, date, person, what was done, removed, cloned etc....and if it has to leave the locked facility like a police dept., or the defense office .... There should be a locked area at the other end....I would hope, but probably not, that the defense has some sort of locked safe type of a room. Even if this is a private company, there should be locked facilities.

I think all states should re look some of these issues...and others. JMO




JMO and thoughts.
 
  • #264
Sadly, I think you're right Hope and that this will come in, to make up for it not coming in before. But like I said earlier on, that would be stupid for the DT. They'll probably do it anyway. But the jury is likely not going to care about any of this or think it's relevant to Jodi's mitigation. It'll be out of context and they'll wonder TA is being put on trial. And they'll be hip to more pedophilia manipulation once Juan points out that no actual child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 was found. That can only be a bad thing.

And I don't think the defense will be able to argue, as part of this, that the state hid this from Jodi to make her look like a liar and that it would have impacted the outcome of the first trial because they are not allowed to make arguments that asks the jury to second guess her guilty verdict.

The DT absolutely can't second guess the guilty verdict by bringing up "evidence" that was "missed." Not even JSS at her most lenient would allow it.

I think the only way the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 is relevant is if it is flat out child 🤬🤬🤬🤬. But the most the DT can argue is that links were found, not actual files, which JM can attribute to viruses.

The worrisome thing about the 🤬🤬🤬🤬, if JSS doesn't shut Nurmi down on it altogether, is that Nurmi is going to claim it will still take weeks and weeks to analyze that gigantic amount of 🤬🤬🤬🤬. I don't see how JSS can allow it in and NOT give Nurmi time -lots of it- to go on a kiddy 🤬🤬🤬🤬 wild goose chase.
 
  • #265
I also think you're right Hope in that tampering of the copies won't amount to much since the actual eviedence is still intact and since they can't prove when or how the deletions happened neither side can be blamed for it. It does help Juan solidify his case that he's not the one that did anything wrong.

But it does appear that someone used Incinerator, possibly on an image, to remove something from it so they could provide that data to BN and he could run with it since he's an actual expert. But when an image was asked to be provided to the state they attempted to delete it first so the state couldn't see it. But it was there anyway in a recycle bin that couldn't have been on Travis' hard drive. This is just a theory but I think that's what Juan is saying. But until he gets the original image that was made to do this work he can't be certain. I'd also be curious to know if BN provided the raw data he was asked for.

It's also a bit odd that Travis' hard drive doesn't work anymore. That also can't be proven to be the defense expert's fault. But it was working when the experts made their copies and now it just clicks.

All that may well have happened. I think JM trying to destroy BN's credibility is a preemptive strike as well as an on point rebuttal to the charges against himself. Preemptive in that IIRC the language JM has used, he fully expects to see BN on the stand. I doubt that JSS will even try to sort out BN's shenanigans. Its a side show to what she has to rule on.
 
  • #266
Just read that if the especially cruel lying torture murderess is sent to death row she will be in solitary confinement 23 out of 24 hours each day.

:jail:
 
  • #267
I may be the last one here to get it, but I finally understand the computer stuff and why its relevant.

1. Nurmi's motion is predicated on both misconduct (tampering with HD) and on what he essentially is calling concealment of evidence/false testimony based on that evidence. The evidence he's referring to is 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer, so actually, imo, all the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 stuff of the past weeks is relevant.

Nurmi is saying that JM falsely called CMJA a liar because she claimed 🤬🤬🤬🤬 and a virus, and that Samuels was unfairly discredited for backing her 🤬🤬🤬🤬 claim.

His argument is that CMJA received an unfair trial because there was 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer and the State's denial of that reality was prejudicial enough to CMJA to warrant overturning the verdict, or at least taking the DP off the table.

2. Three relevant questions

**Is the State guilty of deliberate misconduct? Short answer, no, for every obvious reason.

*Was there 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on TA's computer? The answer to that largely comes down to how one defines "on the computer." Both sides examined TA's viewing HISTORY for the first trial, using an exact image of TA's HD. Neither side found any history of TA viewing 🤬🤬🤬🤬, nor of any 🤬🤬🤬🤬 being downloaded. I think neither side analyzed TA's registery.

The State did not interfere in any way with the DT's examination of the HD image for the first trial, nor had the image the DT used been altered in any way other than whatever was modified on June 10 2008 when the HD was woken by Flores.

🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer was a non issue until CMJA went pro per again and directed her minions to recheck the HD. What HD image or clone or whatever BN used to search for 🤬🤬🤬🤬 remains a mystery because he still hasn't turned it over.

What BN claims, however, is that TA had a huge amount of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his computer. The 🤬🤬🤬🤬 he claims to have found is in the REGISTRY, not in the viewing history. BN claims the reason why there is no 🤬🤬🤬🤬 in the viewing history is because TA used an abnormally large number of "scrubbers" to erase his 🤬🤬🤬🤬 viewing tracks.

So, BN says ignore the viewing history and focus on the registry. The State concedes there are 🤬🤬🤬🤬 links in the registry, but states that the links could be/are a result of viruses, and that there is no evidence, even in the registry, that TA actually searched for 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his computer.

Imo, the whole long tussle about HD's is irrelevant to the issue of alleged misconduct. As Wilmott herself said, the original image of TA's HD is entirely intact and unmodified, as is Dworkin's 2009 image. The original evidence , then, was neither modified or destroyed. Not by the State and not by BN.

Again, the only modification to TA's HD happened on June 10, 2008, when Flores woke it up by tapping on the space bar. I don't know if BN is alleging he can figure out what was modified at that time, in the 45 minutes or so before forensics came and shut it down. Whatever was or was not modified, the changes were accidental. Not even negligent, because Flores did not violate any protocol by waking it up.

And in terms of the DT's charges of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer.... BN claims he found the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 anyway, even after June 10 modifications, so? No harm no foul on that count either.

**Was CMJA prejudiced by the " exclusion" of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 in registry evidence during her first trial? Somehow I think we'll see that become an appeals issue, but it isn't for JSS to decide.

Her decision to grant or deny the motion to dismiss the DP can only be based on whether or not the State deliberately tampered with evidence. It did not. Motion denied.

(Neither side was aware of whatever was in the registry, and no tampering had taken place to prevent the DT from searching and finding what was in the registry. The DT simply chose not to look at the registry. Their call. Their responsibility. Their deflection by blaming the State for their own choice).

Whether or not she'll allow this sentencing phase to go down a deep and irrelevant rabbit hole of dueling IT experts discussing HD's and clones and scrubbers and the victim's internet viewing history is anyone's guess. I guess, sadly, that she will.

The defense's own expert testified in the trial that there was no 🤬🤬🤬🤬. Even BN doesn't testify that any 🤬🤬🤬🤬 was found on it, just that 🤬🤬🤬🤬 had been accessed. He had zero proof that any 🤬🤬🤬🤬 had been downloaded. He never proved that any 🤬🤬🤬🤬 was accessed intentionally as opposed to coming from some virus.

JA was called a liar by Juan. She has been called a liar by the defense's own witnesses as well, if not by her defense counsel. Bottom line: She's a liar. Is some COA going to overturn her conviction because Juan called her a liar. Odds are greater than I'll run a marathon. It ain't happening.

No negligence or destruction of evidence was ever proven by the defense. But it was pretty clear that the DT tampered with their copy of the evidence and then tried to use that to prove negligence. KN's argument was that that doesn't count since it was a copy, not the original. What a bunch of hogwash. His original expert said nothing was found, and his latest expert screwed up royally.

So all of that adds up to a big pile of nothing.

What the DT could have done if they had an expert who knew what the heck he was doing was possibly determine whether someone had searched for 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on Travis's computer. The registry keeps track of recent searches among other things, so BN claiming that Travis had typed in this or that might have been provable (well not that it was Travis, but that it was someone on Travis's computer) but he never seemed to offer proof of it - he just claimed it. That doesn't add up to squat either.

ETA: I forgot to add that RS's credibility was killed on any number of fronts. "Maybe I should have rerun the test" is enough in and of itself to show he was incompetent regardless of anything else.
 
  • #268
Just read that if the especially cruel lying torture murderess is sent to death row she will be in solitary confinement 23 out of 24 hours each day.

:jail:

My Christmas wish is that Arias would get Life, with no possibility of parole, and solitary confinement. That would be a fate worse than death for a sociopath. She can edit her manifesto - copy/draw to her heart's content - recycle the paper - grow her hair down to her knees - talk to herself in Spanish - and whatever else she plans to do to better the quality of living in Perryville.
 
  • #269
​Has anyone compiled a comprehensive list of admitted exhibits (and their descriptions) for the verdict phase of the case, the sentencing phase mistrial, and this current sentencing phase retrial -- to include admissibility and other hearings?

The jurors will lawfully consider: admitted exhibits, both unstricken testimony and testiphony, and the Court's instructions in order to deliberate sentencing.

I've searched for it, but can't find any such list of exhibits.

I know I would appreciate a sticky thread on it, and I may not be alone.
 
  • #270
To add, even if there was nothing dishonest going on and there's an explanation for why Incinerator was there, it's still a problem. For instance, if Willmott wants to say it was something that was on the computer of the person making the copy, that's still a problem because how can Juan's expert then know for sure what's Travis' and what isn't? It's why needs the original copy they made to see. And they just won't turn it over. The expert also commented that while there was 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the 2009 image Dworkin made, it's not the same as what was found on the copies that have been provided by the defense. These copies are not viable.

Also, don't forget about Tony and his hard drive. Maybe it really was an honest mistake. Maybe. But with BN refusing to turn over the original copy and that these copies are now shown to not be exact copied of TA's hard drive, one has to wonder if the defense is trying to hide something.
 
  • #271
I don't see how the jurors are keeping anything straight. Crazy delays, crazy witnesses . I say show the autopsy photos all the time court is happening just to remind the jurors why they are there. I don't see how long distance relationship issues , 🤬🤬🤬🤬 or whatever else the defense drags up really matters.
 
  • #272
When anyone, private or law enforcement, just anyone, hires someone to find out what is on a computer, the question they need to ask, know, have in writing, signed, dated etc....is WHO will be working on the computer, WHAT is there background to work on it. I am sure WS can think of a lot more questions. Just because you talk to the counter person, who you may have hired before, does not mean he is to work on the computer, so how can he answer trial questions, how can he work on the computer if his expertise is in a different area?! There should be also be a paper trail of time, date, person, what was done, removed, cloned etc....and if it has to leave the locked facility like a police dept., or the defense office .... There should be a locked area at the other end....I would hope, but probably not, that the defense has some sort of locked safe type of a room. Even if this is a private company, there should be locked facilities.

I think all states should re look some of these issues...and others. JMO




JMO and thoughts.

There should definitely be a ton of documentation on every little thing that was done in the analysis. This is forensic evidence—it's going to be scrutinized. BN should not have any trouble referring to his (or Tony's or super secret 3rd examiner's) notes to determine who, when, and why Incinerator was found by the prosecution's expert.

Nurmi hiring BN for this job is like hiring a bookkeeper to design his law office's web site because it's all work done on a computer, so it's all the same. BN's audio and video expertise really doesn't have anything to do with his task at hand. No surprise that he farmed it out, but since he's the one on the stand answering questions, he really should know what happened with that job!

I'm sorry for BN's loss. Such bad timing for him, he must be under a lot of stress between his personal loss and this trial.
 
  • #273
At some point in the hearing, Juan said he had a witness who could prove that BN broke the computer and tried to hide unfavorable evidence of what exactly he did during his "analysis". So far as I can tell - perhaps I missed it - that witness was never called. Could that be because it was no longer necessary, because BN agreed to self-disclose (admit) to the truth of the allegations instead?
 
  • #274
The DT absolutely can't second guess the guilty verdict by bringing up "evidence" that was "missed." Not even JSS at her most lenient would allow it.

I think the only way the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 is relevant is if it is flat out child 🤬🤬🤬🤬. But the most the DT can argue is that links were found, not actual files, which JM can attribute to viruses.

The worrisome thing about the 🤬🤬🤬🤬, if JSS doesn't shut Nurmi down on it altogether, is that Nurmi is going to claim it will still take weeks and weeks to analyze that gigantic amount of 🤬🤬🤬🤬. I don't see how JSS can allow it in and NOT give Nurmi time -lots of it- to go on a kiddy 🤬🤬🤬🤬 wild goose chase.

My theory on the 🤬🤬🤬🤬:

Both sides probably looked for pornographic images and videos. They did not find any, ergo the testimony in the verdict phase that there was no 🤬🤬🤬🤬.

BN's posse dug more deeply and found evidence of links to websites they allege are 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬-related given that the URLs contain terminology which is explicitly pornographic/vulgar/obscene as defined by community standards. Mesa PD now concedes that this is true. Neither side can prove conclusively that TA ever did or did not access any of these sites himself. In fact, IIRC, the Compaq Presario in question is registered to one Deanna Reid.

AFAWK, neither side claims to have found any pornographic images or video files even on this deep dive second go-round.

I still say the issue here is whether the DT can prove, as they filed in their motion, that the prosecutor is guilty of:

MotionHeader_zps458ee693.jpg

The DT's burden of proof is high indeed, and it has not been met.

A just judge would not deem it met.

JSKS?

Anyone's guess...
 
  • #275
The DT absolutely can't second guess the guilty verdict by bringing up "evidence" that was "missed." Not even JSS at her most lenient would allow it.

I think the only way the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 is relevant is if it is flat out child 🤬🤬🤬🤬. But the most the DT can argue is that links were found, not actual files, which JM can attribute to viruses.

The worrisome thing about the 🤬🤬🤬🤬, if JSS doesn't shut Nurmi down on it altogether, is that Nurmi is going to claim it will still take weeks and weeks to analyze that gigantic amount of 🤬🤬🤬🤬. I don't see how JSS can allow it in and NOT give Nurmi time -lots of it- to go on a kiddy 🤬🤬🤬🤬 wild goose chase.

This whole fiasco has JA written all over it. She is still pi***ed Juan called her out on her continuing lies during the last trial and she got the DP, so she is retrying the case with her latest version of her "story".

Nurmi's sole strategy is of course to put time between jury's decision and Travis' sibling's words and pray for more jurors to leave.
 
  • #276
At some point in the hearing, Juan said he had a witness who could prove that BN broke the computer and tried to hide unfavorable evidence of what exactly he did during his "analysis". So far as I can tell - perhaps I missed it - that witness was never called. Could that be because it was no longer necessary, because BN agreed to self-disclose (admit) to the truth of the allegations instead?

On, no, no, no!!!! I WANT Juan to bring out his witness!!! Please Please Please. I don't think you have the right to TRY to ruin someone's reputation without absolute proof! You can't just slink away and say "Oh, nevermind..."
 
  • #277
My Christmas wish is that Arias would get Life, with no possibility of parole, and solitary confinement. That would be a fate worse than death for a sociopath. She can edit her manifesto - copy/draw to her heart's content - recycle the paper - grow her hair down to her knees - talk to herself in Spanish - and whatever else she plans to do to better the quality of living in Perryville.

I'm with Travis Alexander's surviving family who are still in danger while she breathes; give her pentobarbital and/or whatever else is necessary to keep her from killing again.
 
  • #278
I think Juan did call him. It was Perry Smith. He basically said he tried to make a copy himself and it just clicked and wouldn't work. That's all Juan can really ask him since it can't be proven how that damage happened.
 
  • #279
I think Juan did call him. It was Perry Smith. He basically said he tried ro make a copy himself and it just clicked and wouldn't work. That's all Juan can really ask him since it can't be proven how that damage happened.

okay. I can live with that. :)
 
  • #280
I may be the last one here to get it, but I finally understand the computer stuff and why its relevant.

1. Nurmi's motion is predicated on both misconduct (tampering with HD) and on what he essentially is calling concealment of evidence/false testimony based on that evidence. The evidence he's referring to is 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer, so actually, imo, all the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 stuff of the past weeks is relevant.

Nurmi is saying that JM falsely called CMJA a liar because she claimed 🤬🤬🤬🤬 and a virus, and that Samuels was unfairly discredited for backing her 🤬🤬🤬🤬 claim.

His argument is that CMJA received an unfair trial because there was 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer and the State's denial of that reality was prejudicial enough to CMJA to warrant overturning the verdict, or at least taking the DP off the table.

2. Three relevant questions

**Is the State guilty of deliberate misconduct? Short answer, no, for every obvious reason.

*Was there 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on TA's computer? The answer to that largely comes down to how one defines "on the computer." Both sides examined TA's viewing HISTORY for the first trial, using an exact image of TA's HD. Neither side found any history of TA viewing 🤬🤬🤬🤬, nor of any 🤬🤬🤬🤬 being downloaded. I think neither side analyzed TA's registery.

The State did not interfere in any way with the DT's examination of the HD image for the first trial, nor had the image the DT used been altered in any way other than whatever was modified on June 10 2008 when the HD was woken by Flores.

🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer was a non issue until CMJA went pro per again and directed her minions to recheck the HD. What HD image or clone or whatever BN used to search for 🤬🤬🤬🤬 remains a mystery because he still hasn't turned it over.

What BN claims, however, is that TA had a huge amount of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his computer. The 🤬🤬🤬🤬 he claims to have found is in the REGISTRY, not in the viewing history. BN claims the reason why there is no 🤬🤬🤬🤬 in the viewing history is because TA used an abnormally large number of "scrubbers" to erase his 🤬🤬🤬🤬 viewing tracks.

So, BN says ignore the viewing history and focus on the registry. The State concedes there are 🤬🤬🤬🤬 links in the registry, but states that the links could be/are a result of viruses, and that there is no evidence, even in the registry, that TA actually searched for 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his computer.

Imo, the whole long tussle about HD's is irrelevant to the issue of alleged misconduct. As Wilmott herself said, the original image of TA's HD is entirely intact and unmodified, as is Dworkin's 2009 image. The original evidence , then, was neither modified or destroyed. Not by the State and not by BN.

Again, the only modification to TA's HD happened on June 10, 2008, when Flores woke it up by tapping on the space bar. I don't know if BN is alleging he can figure out what was modified at that time, in the 45 minutes or so before forensics came and shut it down. Whatever was or was not modified, the changes were accidental. Not even negligent, because Flores did not violate any protocol by waking it up.

And in terms of the DT's charges of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on the computer.... BN claims he found the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 anyway, even after June 10 modifications, so? No harm no foul on that count either.

**Was CMJA prejudiced by the " exclusion" of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 in registry evidence during her first trial? Somehow I think we'll see that become an appeals issue, but it isn't for JSS to decide.

Her decision to grant or deny the motion to dismiss the DP can only be based on whether or not the State deliberately tampered with evidence. It did not. Motion denied.

(Neither side was aware of whatever was in the registry, and no tampering had taken place to prevent the DT from searching and finding what was in the registry. The DT simply chose not to look at the registry. Their call. Their responsibility. Their deflection by blaming the State for their own choice).

Whether or not she'll allow this sentencing phase to go down a deep and irrelevant rabbit hole of dueling IT experts discussing HD's and clones and scrubbers and the victim's internet viewing history is anyone's guess. I guess, sadly, that she will.

Good post; probably something too complicated for our judge, though. I hope someone with authority over her puts a bug in her ear about how far backward she should bend to avoid appeal issues. In most cases there will be appeals; most are not successful but some are. It's just the way our justice system works. (I use the term "works" lightly.)

If no one intervenes to let the judge know a few things about computers (which I suspect she has no real knowledge of) and the difference between registry and browser history, I think you called it that she will go down yet another rabbit hole. It is so very wrong for her to do that even if she thinks she is doing it for the right reasons. There will be an appeal--several, probably, regardless of how many rabbit hole detours are taken.

I desperately want the judge to tell the DT they must present the rest of their witnesses or rest their case. Hopefully she has the power to do that and if so, exercises that power.

Again Hope4...your post is very informative and I thank you. There is no question that you are smarter than the average bear. My concern is for the judge's level of understanding; on that I shall refrain from further opining.
 
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