Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

[Linda7NJ]

Here's a database with pretty much every tabloid written on the case:

http://jonbenet-ramsey.com/tabloids/login.php

(You have to register).

Thank you! Registered, just waiting for approval


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[otg]

On the tape publicly available I couldn't hear any voices at the end of the 911 call. Crime labs disagreed on whether there were voices. Do you have access to audio that reveals those voices? I heard nothing on the tape. I suspect it's pareidolia and wishful thinking on the part of investigators who desperately want more info.

Kolar says he talked to the 911 operator who said she was freaked out by the change in tenor after the Rs thought the call was disconnected. I wish he had explained if the headset audio quality is better than the recording quality. If it's not, they're just imaging things.

Based only on the public tape, I don't believe there is any extra conversation at the end of the tape.

I don't know which publicly available recording you've listened to, CG. There are several floating around. There are two that were released by the DA. One of them was a cassette copy of a copy of a copy, the other was a digitally copied version of that in CD format. One of them has the very beginning and the very end erased completely. The other one has the beginning conversation (Patsy speaking to someone before she realizes the call had been answered) and a portion of the end where Burke's voice can be heard to utter three words before it is cut off and "white noise" recorded over it. It should be obvious why they did not want the entire recording released. It is incriminating evidence.

Technology has changed over the years, and in fact, it was changing during the period of time in which investigators were trying to get an enhancement of the recording after the 911 operator (Archuletta) reported what she had heard. Some sources at that time had better equipment/software than others. There are now software programs available where you can do a limited amount of cleaning up of the ambient sound yourself and hear better than the original recording released.

Listen to this, which has the first part of the call that is usually transcribed as "inaudible". See if you can hear in the first four seconds what Patsy says before she says, "Police!" If you can, take note of the change in tone between the two sections and let me know if you want to continue.

 

[Nova]

I think that would have been awkward to say the least with police all over the house, any of which could question him at any time. No, the best thing for the parents was to get him out of the house and away from the police. Definitely the lesser of two evils.

Maybe, though if one believes Linda Arndt, there really wasn't that much LE manpower at the house that morning.

But my point is that if a kid is at one's side, a parent can always interrupt the conversation and invent a response to a problematic question or explain away the child's unfortunate response.

Equally important, the Rs would know for sure what BR had and had not said.

Not so once he left their side--with the very family friend BR would be most likely to trust.

 

[Nova]

It's possible they considered taking her body to some distant location or to get a bogus DNA sample to plant in the house or on her body. That's why the RN mentions an arduous journey to deliver the money and the possibility of an earlier exchange. This give the Rs freedom to go out all night. They could say the kidnappers told them to go out to the countryside but something went wrong and they killed her. They didn't carry out this option, but they may have gone out for some other reason. If anyone finds out and asks why they did it, they can say in the early morning hours they were looking for JBR.

The timing is the hole in this theory. They would have had to discover the RN right after the intruder left it late at night. This is a problem with the entire RN. The note says they'll call "tomorrow", but they got home late, so I don't understand why the RN doesn't say "in a few hours" instead of 8am tomorrow.

Sorry, but your first theory doesn't hold water for me. "They could say the kidnappers told them" how? I realize the lost phone records are a big hole in this case, but the Rs had no way of predicting there would be no record of incoming calls that night.

The "looking for JBR" excuse has the advantage of not being subject to contradiction by electronic records, but as you yourself point out, it would have required the Rs to claim they found JBR missing in the middle of the night--which would be tantamount to admitting they were up at or around the time she disappeared. This brings them "closer" to the crime when they were trying to distance themselves. (AND they risked their daughter's decapitation, not to call 911, but to search aimlessly in the dark.)

And all of the above assumes the Rs were willing to dump their daughter in the wild. I realize she seems discarded in the WC, but she is still at "home".

***

As for the "tomorrow" reference, I know people don't like to hear this, but people have a tendency to think of "today" lasting until they go to bed (regardless of the hour) and "tomorrow" beginning the following morning.

For years I taught 8 a.m. classes at a university and I was sent countless student emails between 4 and 6 a.m., signed "See you tomorrow." Even though they were going to see me in a couple of hours. They had been up all night completing their assignments, so in their minds it was still the preceding day. Then they took a quick nap and awoke "the following day or 'tomorrow'" to come to class.

Very few people, aside from crime reporters and scientists, think of a new day beginning at midnight, because that isn't how most human beings live their lives. (Notice that we still say the "day dawns", even though that isn't the way we set our clocks.)

If, as I suspect, the writer of the RN (surely PR, imo) was still up from Christmas day, she imagined 12/26 (the day the SFF was to call) as "tomorrow", even though, technically, the date had already arrived.

(OT, but I also think this is the simple reason why the Rs put 12/25 on JBR's tombstone. They probably also liked the symbolism of the child dying on Christmas Day, but I think they would have used the earlier date anyway.)

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Maybe, though if one believes Linda Arndt, there really wasn't that much LE manpower at the house that morning.

But my point is that if a kid is at one's side, a parent can always interrupt the conversation and invent a response to a problematic question or explain away the child's unfortunate response.

Equally important, the Rs would know for sure what BR had and had not said.

Not so once he left their side--with the very family friend BR would be most likely to trust.

Interesting yet look at it from a different perspective: If you had just found out that there were kidnappers, and your daughter might be a victim and/or was murdered (and you were not involved)--- > wouldn't you demand that your family remain in eyeshot of you at all times? Would you even be able to sleep out of fear of someone coming to take BR too? I'd have one eye open as a mother and BR would be almost "glued" to me!

But that didn't happen here. They were all too happy to wisk BR away to a friend's house.

Obviously, they weren't worried about the welfare & safety of BR.

And perhaps, secretly, they couldn't stand the sight of him after what he had done?

moo

 

[tlcya]

Interesting yet look at it from a different perspective: If you had just found out that there were kidnappers, and your daughter might be a victim and/or was murdered (and you were not involved)--- > wouldn't you demand that your family remain in eyeshot of you at all times? Would you even be able to sleep out of fear of someone coming to take BR too? I'd have one eye open as a mother and BR would be almost "glued" to me!

But that didn't happen here. They were all too happy to wisk BR away to a friend's house.

Obviously, they weren't worried about the welfare & safety of BR.

And perhaps, secretly, they couldn't stand the sight of him after what he had done?

moo

That is for sure one possible reason but it is not yet obvious to me that they were not concerned for BR safety. I can see both sides that could be argued. One hand: I can agree, I think my instinct would be to hold my other child close at such a time, not wanting him out of my sight. One the other, I can also see wanting to remove my not missing child from a stressful freak out environment and to somewhere I perceive as safe and calm. Back to lurking and boning up on this case.

Thanks guys, for not making me feel stupid here trying to catch up at this late date. I have been here since 09 which seems like an old timer to some, but to you folks who have followed this case and been members forever I am a babe in the woods. I appreciate your willingness to share your insights gained from a much more familiar case perspective.

 

[Nova]

Interesting yet look at it from a different perspective: If you had just found out that there were kidnappers, and your daughter might be a victim and/or was murdered (and you were not involved)--- > wouldn't you demand that your family remain in eyeshot of you at all times? Would you even be able to sleep out of fear of someone coming to take BR too? I'd have one eye open as a mother and BR would be almost "glued" to me!

But that didn't happen here. They were all too happy to wisk BR away to a friend's house.

Obviously, they weren't worried about the welfare & safety of BR.

And perhaps, secretly, they couldn't stand the sight of him after what he had done?

moo

Oh, I absolutely agree. I am firmly RDI and don't believe the Rs would have let their kid go to FW's house while the SFF (or whatever intruder they thought had JBR) roamed the streets of Boulder.

For me, letting BR go with FW eliminates IDI and argues against BDI. But the sentence I bolded in your quote is certainly something to consider...

 

[otg]

Thank you. Wow.
The BPD did listen in (tapped McGuckins phone) and heard a "John" discuss this over the phone on the 3rd phone call on Jan. 20, 1997. Then the bookkeeper asked for and received a fax from this "John" who formally requested a copy of the receipt and the bookkeeper faxed that to him. Would be easy enough to confirm if it were the Rapps, if the voice was different than JR's or if the fax numbers were not JR's.

Are the Rapps still in jail?

QFT, I ran across this while looking for something else:

The indictment of the Rapps spelled out how they obtained some information about the Ramseys. Within days of the child's death on Dec. 26, 1996, callers from Touch Tone used pretexts to obtain American Express credit card records for her parents, John and Patricia Ramsey, according to the charges. Those records showed that purchases were made at a Boulder hardware store several days before the child's death.

On Jan. 14, 1997, a Touch Tone investigator called McGuckin Hardware pretending to be ''John'' and asking for information concerning two American Express charges. The investigator followed up with a letter identifying the charges and seeking the invoices. The letter was signed ''John Ramsey.''
​

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/01/u...er-of-private-data.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

 

[Sandstorm]

quoteChris_Texas,
Oh my and how authorative are opinions? The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene period.
**********************************************************************************************
I totally concur with Chris Texas. It was a staged crime-scene. PERIOD.

I have followed this case from the beginning and can remember the very day and where I was when JonBenet's beautiful face appeared on the national news that she had been murdered.

I could never come to terms with who killed her and why until I read James Kolar's book.

The recent release of the Grand Jury indictment of Patsy and John only subsantiates the line of reasoning based on the evidence Mr. Kolar presents in his book.

I highly recommend:
FOREIGN FACTION: WHO REALLY KIDNAPPED JONBENET.
by A. James Kolar

This is a great read where you will find many answers to your questions.
The author is a detective who worked for years on the JBR case.
He sites the evidence and lets you decide.

Below is a recent news clip interview with A. James Kolar:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/26/justice/jonbenet-ramsey-documents/

His book is available on Amazon - you will not be disappointed:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Foreign-Faction-Really-Kidnapped-JonBenet/dp/0984763201"]Foreign Faction - Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?: A. James Kolar: 9780984763207: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413BRsnaYlL.@@AMEPARAM@@413BRsnaYlL[/ame]

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I totally concur with Chris Texas. It was a staged crime-scene. PERIOD.

I highly recommend:
FOREIGN FACTION: WHO REALLY KIDNAPPED JONBENET.
by A. James Kolar

This is a great read where you will find many answers to your questions.
The author is a detective who worked for years on the JBR case.
He sites the evidence and lets you decide.

(Snipped by me for brevity.)

I think your first point should be followed by "IMO". Other than the RN, I challenge you to prove anything else was staged. What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging? IMO, the WC was just a temporary dump.

Like many, I've read PMPT, Steve Thomas' book and A Foreign Faction. Personally, I thought Thomas' book was more informative and certainly a better read.

However, Kolar does win the "most feces references" award.

 

[Sandstorm]

(Snipped by me for brevity.)

I think your first point should be followed by "IMO". Other than the RN, I challenge you to prove anything else was staged. What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging? IMO, the WC was just a temporary dump.

Like many, I've read PMPT, Steve Thomas' book and A Foreign Faction. Personally, I thought Thomas' book was more informative and certainly a better read.

However, Kolar does win the "most feces references" award.

*****************************************************************
This board is not for any of us to prove anything - rather for friendly discussion in which we can share our thoughts, opinions, and information with respect for other member's posts. The point of my previous post was to share this informative book with other members.

 

[Linda7NJ]

(Snipped by me for brevity.)

I think your first point should be followed by "IMO". Other than the RN, I challenge you to prove anything else was staged. What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging? IMO, the WC was just a temporary dump.

Like many, I've read PMPT, Steve Thomas' book and A Foreign Faction. Personally, I thought Thomas' book was more informative and certainly a better read.

However, Kolar does win the "most feces references" award.

I believe the body wipe down, redressing and covering her with that blanket in the basement was staging as were the wrist restraints.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

*****************************************************************
This board is not for any of us to prove anything - rather for friendly discussion in which we can share our thoughts, opinions, and information with respect for other member's posts. The point of my previous post was to share this informative book with other members.

Maybe you missed my intention. I agree this is a forum to friendly discuss opinions and theory. But assertions with the word PERIOD at the end come across as fact and need to be backed up.

I promise not to disagree with you again seeing as you have the coolest screen name ever (because I am an alumnus of the school that uses the song as their football theme).

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I believe the body wipe down, redressing and covering her with that blanket in the basement was staging as were the wrist restraints.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I figured my post would draw criticism from the diehard "stagers".

Take a deep breath and consider my questions:

What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging?

Why, you ask, is this possibility being discussed? Because there was a RN!

 

[renah]

So if the initial plan was to dump the body, then youre saying the body was taken as it was killed in her bedroom or wherever? AND dressed, garroted, etc for the perp's own reasons but originally intended to NEVER BE SEEN AGAIN?

 

[CircuitGuy]

One of them has the very beginning and the very end erased completely. The other one has the beginning conversation (Patsy speaking to someone before she realizes the call had been answered) and a portion of the end where Burke's voice can be heard to utter three words before it is cut off and "white noise" recorded over it. It should be obvious why they did not want the entire recording released. It is incriminating evidence.

Do you think this is a conspiracy to protect someone or a LE decision to hide this information to avoid contaminating a jury or to avoid sharing this information with a perp or accomplice?

Listen to this, which has the first part of the call that is usually transcribed as "inaudible". See if you can hear in the first four seconds what Patsy says before she says, "Police!" If you can, take note of the change in tone between the two sections and let me know if you want to continue.

I have never listened carefully to that part. It sounds like she says "...one". When the operator comes on, she say "Hi, we need... POLICE!" My guess is she was telling someone "I'm calling 911," and the last "1" is captured in the recording. The "one" does sound to be the same tone as the rest the call.

I'm eager to hear what you think.

 

[Harmony 2]

I believe the body wipe down, redressing and covering her with that blanket in the basement was staging as were the wrist restraints.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What are your thoughts on why redressing would involve putting new clean underwear yet leaving the same wet urine stained long johns?

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

So if the initial plan was to dump the body, then youre saying the body was taken as it was killed in her bedroom or wherever? AND dressed, garroted, etc for the perp's own reasons but originally intended to NEVER BE SEEN AGAIN?

That's a fascination question and is being partially discussed in another thread.

My post was mainly intended as a counterpoint to what law enforcement and many members of this forum regard as given (i.e., evidence was manipulated to confuse investigators). But the existence of a RN begs the fundamental question: Did the killer(s) intend for the body ever to be found?

If staging = true:

Was the staging for the benefit of LE and/or one of the parents?

When and where did the killer(s) expect the body to be discovered?

If staging = false:

Why all the bizarre and contradictory evidence?

 

[CircuitGuy]

Obviously, they weren't worried about the welfare & safety of BR.

And perhaps, secretly, they couldn't stand the sight of him after what he had done?

Oh, I absolutely agree. I am firmly RDI and don't believe the Rs would have let their kid go to FW's house while the SFF (or whatever intruder they thought had JBR) roamed the streets of Boulder.

For me, letting BR go with FW eliminates IDI and argues against BDI. But the sentence I bolded in your quote is certainly something to consider...

I agree there is a completely bizarre lack of concern for BR's safety, which clearly argues against IDI. I have no guess who did it, but I suspect all the R's know who did it.

If letting BR go with FW argues against BDI why did you highlight ATasteofHoney's comments about them secretly hating BR?

 

[Linda7NJ]

What are your thoughts on why redressing would involve putting new clean underwear yet leaving the same wet urine stained long johns?

The person didn't want her to be "cold" on the basement floor. IMO it's a thing a mom that did love her daughter would do. As was covering her with the blanket. The loosely tied wrist restraints. Wiping her down.

Where are her original panties?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk