Thailand - FOUND ALIVE - 12 Boys And Coach Trapped In Cave , 23 June 2018 #4

[dyannaON]

love you but <hurling tomatoes>

This is awesome because I know no one will take offence. It made me giggle. I love all the perspectives even if mine varies. Everyone here has been just so awesome during this.

 

[BUF]

I thought I read somewhere it was going to be in about 5 hours but I can't seem to find it again.

From earlier...

michael safi
@safimichael
"Again, we have to prepare equipment that will take another 20 hours. I can’t give you exact timing [for the next operation]," says Osatanakorn #thamluangcave

 

[Elainera]

I thought I read somewhere it was going to be in about 5 hours but I can't seem to find it again.

It's just after 3 am in Thailand now, the sun rises at 6. Yesterday (Monday) the divers went in at around 8am iirc? So yes, 5 hours sounds about right.

 

[Gardenista]

Wonder if they will change the sign at the front of the cave that says the danger starts in July?

 

[Amonet]

I'm so glad they've got several boys out safely! What an ordeal for them.

I'll likely get some carp from y'all about this, but I'm honestly surprised at the amount and degree of support for this coach. This wasn't an "accident." This was a very preventable event. I think it was @beatrixpotter who said in the last thread, and I agreed, that he's not a hero--the people saving them are heroes, the diver who lost his life is a hero. This guy made a terrible error in judgement, and it negatively impacted myriads of people, from the rescuers and their families, to the nearby farmers, to the kids and their families. This wasn't something that was reasonably unforeseeable. It's a huge, deep, long, watery cave! It's not like he took them to a children's museum and a random accident occurred--he took them somewhere which could pretty easily be identified as a possibly dangerous situation, and lo and behold, it was incredibly dangerous, even fatal.

On the one hand, it's nice to see so much positivity. But on the other hand, his poor decision is what got them there in the first place. I'm not saying I want the guy lynched, or necessarily even jailed, but I just can't celebrate him, either! To go into a huge, complex, cave system, right before monsoon season (that doesn't read calendars), with only one adult and twelve children!!! That's a bad ratio for any type of community activity, but to take a group of kids, by yourself, into that kind of situation is not okay and it's not at all surprising something horrible happened. Poor judgement which rises to a level of negligence, in my book.

And now I will duck in anticipation of hurled tomatoes.

I think you're perfectly entitled to your opinion and have many valid points. I also feel for the coach more than I feel anger at him, but I don't expect everyone to feel that way.

But, we don't know all the details. There are some things that might make me feel more than he more irresponsible and negligent and some things that might make me feel that it was less negligence on his part. I don't have those details.

It sounds like he did do a lot to try and keep the boys alive and calm while waiting for rescue, he suffered too, he seems like a person who's given a lot to his local community which I think is a good thing. But there could be details that would make me feel that it was extreme irresponsibility and negligence.

Right now I am focused on hoping they all get out safely, and on the safety of the rescuers.

 

[Jackeee]

Deleted

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Yes, you could say the coach is not a hero for taking them in there. But he is TOTALLY a hero for keeping them all alive for 10 days!

It was a silly error of judgement but a trip he (and the team) had made plenty of times. There are no permission slips or risk assessments, it's not like the UK or US where they'd all have been wearing hard hats and emergency equipment. It's generally a wonderfully free way of life that none of us in the Western world can truly fathom unless we've seen it. As someone posted earlier today, it's like comparing apples and giraffes. He will be astonished how quickly the cave system filled with water and will be devastated when he hears a rescuer died. I think he's suffered enough.

I, for one, hope he gets a hero's welcome when he gets out, but I think he'll be the one most affected long-term by this ordeal

 

[Jackeee]

I can’t get the image of the last 5 just waiting to be rescued. The clock just doesn’t seem to be moving.

 

[Seattle1]

British people say that a lot similar to how Americans say "awesome".

But it was brilliant. The coach kept them all together and they were all alive because they had remained together.

Lol.. Another good example of what one says (audio) versus what's typed/text can be lost in translation. Besides "brilliant," we (Brits) also say "well done" more often than I ever realized!

 

[BUF]

I thought I read somewhere it was going to be in about 5 hours but I can't seem to find it again.

Is this what you maybe were remembering?

michael safi
@safimichael
The retrievals are getting faster: "Our rescuers can [now] shorten the operation time by two hours," he says. "Over 100 including 18 international cave divers took part in today’s operation." #thamluangcave

ETA: my guess of about 13 hrs from now is when they would maybe start coming out.

 

[kkdj]

Wonder if they will change the sign at the front of the cave that says the danger starts in July?

I read somewhere that they are going to make the cave a tourist attraction. With that I'll bet they have guides and careful schedules. We used to visit caves when I was a kid. It was pretty cool. Now, I doubt I'll ever venture into a cave again!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Wonder if they will change the sign at the front of the cave that says the danger starts in July?

Yes, can someone just go and change the last two letters?

 

[Elainera]

Lol.. Another good example of what one says (audio) versus what's typed/text can be lost in translation. Besides "brilliant," we (Brits) also say "well done" more often than I ever realized!

When I hear (or read) the word 'Brilliant' I always hear it in mind how George Clarke says it in Amazing Spaces (and other shows). (Hubby loves to watch these shows, I'm not a TV buff actually.)

 

[Gardenista]

I can’t get the image of the last 5 just waiting to be rescued. The clock just doesn’t seem to be moving.

There's more than 5 back there. There's also the doctor(s) and maybe others who taught them how the rescue will work and what they would need to do. So maybe the coach will come out with some of them?

 

[Shiressleuth]

If they are not being fed, maybe they're not as well as we're being told?
You would think food would be given pretty quickly if they are healthy.....and conscious. They might start with frequent, small portions but they would feed them.

Where did you read they are not being fed?
They are being fed rice porridge. They have had nothing much for two weeks so will have to build up their intake gradually. They have had to probably drink that manky cave water too.

 

[Amonet]

Yes, you could say the coach is not a hero for taking them in there. But he is TOTALLY a hero for keeping them all alive for 10 days!

It was a silly error of judgement but a trip he (and the team) had made plenty of times. There are no permission slips or risk assessments, it's not like the UK or US where they'd all have been wearing hard hats and emergency equipment. It's generally a wonderfully free way of life that none of us in the Western world can truly fathom unless we've seen it. As someone posted earlier today, it's like comparing apples and giraffes. He will be astonished how quickly the cave system filled with water and will be devastated when he hears a rescuer died. I think he's suffered enough.

I, for one, hope he gets a hero's welcome when he gets out, but I think he'll be the one most affected long-term by this ordeal

The way I see it is also that kids tend to explore things in their area, whatever it is. Some parents are more like mine were and keep the kids inside and restrict them mostly to playing in the garden. If I went to play with friends in the street I had to stay in a certain section so that I could be seen from the house windows. Other people let their kids go into town at 8 or 9 years old, to go swimming or shopping or whatever. Some people put their 3 yr old kiddies out in the street at 8 am and ignore them. A slightly more reasonable comparison than that one (yes, it makes me feel judgmental lol) is probably a group of 11 to 16 year olds going out to explore local woods or caves or whatever is in their location. For these kids the cave system is part of their local environment, most of us live in different environments, but there's usually something, and a well-behaved group that age I would probably not object to them exploring for the afternoon by themselves...as long as they were back by dinner time.

We know now that that cave can flood starting at the end of June. How often does it flood to this extent at the end of June? Yes, it was raining that day from what I've heard from links posted here, but I also saw a chart that said it does rain in June, just not as heavily as the full-on monsoon months. If they'd gone in on one of those other June days and it rained they would have come out without a problem. This year. But one year out of fifty or a hundred maybe that would have been disaster.

We're missing a lot of details and context. And at the end of the day it's for the Thai authorities to decide, and I hope they will make a fair and just decision taking all the correct information into account. First of all, though, I want everyone out safely and on the road to recovery and good health.

 

[CARIIS]

ahhh I need a Vicki Sue Robinson break !!

ALL her stuff not just Turn!!

her voice is just joyous!! fun

 

[Elainera]

Yes, you could say the coach is not a hero for taking them in there. But he is TOTALLY a hero for keeping them all alive for 10 days!

It was a silly error of judgement but a trip he (and the team) had made plenty of times. There are no permission slips or risk assessments, it's not like the UK or US where they'd all have been wearing hard hats and emergency equipment. It's generally a wonderfully free way of life that none of us in the Western world can truly fathom unless we've seen it. As someone posted earlier today, it's like comparing apples and giraffes. He will be astonished how quickly the cave system filled with water and will be devastated when he hears a rescuer died. I think he's suffered enough.

I, for one, hope he gets a hero's welcome when he gets out, but I think he'll be the one most affected long-term by this ordeal

He's already becoming a controversial person in this whole ordeal it seems, a controversy that will likely continue or even intensify when he gets out.

Yes I also think he will be most affected long-term. Unless it was one the boys' idea in the first place to go to the cave that day - that boy would then also be very guilt-stricken I could imagine, especially because someone died while aiding the rescue.

How will he (or they) overcome these feelings, move on? Will the Buddhist believe in Karma help with this (it was meant to be, it serves a purpose, etc)? I just hope they don't all have nightmares or years-long PTSD.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Yes I also remember it was the justice minister. He wrote on facebook that Ek (the coach) was the one he would like to hug the most. (Is there no 'heart' emoticon here?)

♡♥

 

[Gardener1850]

I'm so glad they've got several boys out safely! What an ordeal for them.

I'll likely get some carp from y'all about this, but I'm honestly surprised at the amount and degree of support for this coach. This wasn't an "accident." This was a very preventable event. I think it was @beatrixpotter who said in the last thread, and I agreed, that he's not a hero--the people saving them are heroes, the diver who lost his life is a hero. This guy made a terrible error in judgement, and it negatively impacted myriads of people, from the rescuers and their families, to the nearby farmers, to the kids and their families. This wasn't something that was reasonably unforeseeable. It's a huge, deep, long, watery cave! It's not like he took them to a children's museum and a random accident occurred--he took them somewhere which could pretty easily be identified as a possibly dangerous situation, and lo and behold, it was incredibly dangerous, even fatal.

On the one hand, it's nice to see so much positivity. But on the other hand, his poor decision is what got them there in the first place. I'm not saying I want the guy lynched, or necessarily even jailed, but I just can't celebrate him, either! To go into a huge, complex, cave system, right before monsoon season (that doesn't read calendars), with only one adult and twelve children!!! That's a bad ratio for any type of community activity, but to take a group of kids, by yourself, into that kind of situation is not okay and it's not at all surprising something horrible happened. Poor judgement which rises to a level of negligence, in my book.

And now I will duck in anticipation of hurled tomatoes.

No tomatoes here but I think what it boils down to for me is the following facts:

1. They had been in the cave several times before without incident. Why would he suddenly think this could happen?
2. It wasn't officially monsoon season yet. The cave sign clearly says to stay out after July but it was still June. So it's not like he ignored the warning at the front of the cave.
3. The parents and family knew about this trip. It was planned, it wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing. Some told their kids they couldn't go and those kids stayed behind. The boys brought lunches, snacks and flashlights. The kids also had taken many other adventures together such as swimming in waterfalls, rafting on rivers and cycling over mountains.
4. The coach's past makes him sympathetic, IMO. He lost his parents at about the age of 10 and was raised by the monks. In many ways, I think of him as just another boy himself.
5. The intention. He was trying to teach the kids something good, not intending any harm. It didn't work out the way he planned this time. If this was an American Boyscout leader who got stranded with his troop at an annual trip to the Grand Canyon and they all had to be rescued, would you feel the same about the situation?
6. His reaction when the floods came-- he kept them together, kept them calm, taught them to meditate, taught them to only drink water dripping through the rocks, told them to only use one flashlight at a time, etc. He didn't abandon them or panic them or do anything reckless once they knew they were in danger. He sacrificed his food so the boys could eat a little bit longer.
7. None of the locals who know the coach have said they are upset with him or want him to face charges. Only foreigners have brought up the posiblity of charges. The locals have said the opposite-- and that he has treated the boys like his own children in the past. He created a program for the poorer boys on the team to earn sports equipment if they got good grades in school.

It's easy to look at a situation with hindsight and say someone should have planned better or avoided a danger altogether. Personally, I can't find any blame for the coach under the circumstances as we know them. JMO.