The Eikelenbooms and Touch DNA

[nums24]

I started a post earlier about what else they want tested. I took so long that I got logged out and my post was lost. I will have to go back and take the time to do it the right way BUT in a nutshell......

As soon as the lab was named I spent some time reviewing their website.

My thought process was this (be it crazy or not).......
I just don't see how the defense can refute premeditated murder by relying on discrediting prosecution experts and witnesses. It just needs MORE in order to get the juries attention.

Given that the NMS lab does quite a bit of work with toxicology......it seems there has to be something that the defense may still be trying to keep close to the vest.

I take note of the NUMEROUS references made by witnesses, KC's family, and random quack letter writers about KC and smoking pot. The defense seems to have targeted Tony a bit more than anyone else.

The lab is one of the first to do toxicology screening for synthetic cannabinoids. As of now....not all states have outlawed them. In 2008 Florida did NOT have laws against them and they could be found in certain incense and items popular with students.

As of now...Florida has pending litigation.

I can't help but wonder if the defense wants to test additional objects for trace amounts of "synthetic" drugs. Drugs that could cause harm (read accidental death) but not be outlawed. Trace amounts that could be found in hair, urine, etc.......

That was my thought when I made that post. Is the motion up yet?????

No, the motion isn't up yet unfortunately. I will post it as soon as I find it.

FWIW - My posts have been zapped before, I always copy it before I hit the submit button, I get so angry when that happens.

I can't wait to see it, I'm sure you are probably right about what they want tested, you are almost always spot on!

 

[sleutherontheside]

No, the motion isn't up yet unfortunately. I will post it as soon as I find it.

FWIW - My posts have been zapped before, I always copy it before I hit the submit button, I get so angry when that happens.

I can't wait to see it, I'm sure you are probably right about what they want tested, you are almost always spot on!

I am only thinking that DNA is a small part of it. Perhaps a revisit of hair testing for tox screens, the fluids found in the gatorade bottle.

Additionally, it could explain why the A's had her cremated. If the defense wants to do a specific test and CAN'T because Caylee was cremated.....the presser where JB read the letter stating KC's opposition to the cremation might prove relevent. Hmmmmmmmm

 

[sleutherontheside]

http://www.denverpost.com/evidence/ci_6373222

The attorney general’s office has paid a Dutch company about $100,000 for the DNA work. That company, Independent Forensic Services, previously extracted touch DNA evidence that helped free the man initially convicted of Hettrick’s murder.



In an interview Friday, Masters said the touch DNA evidence extracted by Selena and Richard Eikelenboom of IFS played a “crucial” role in getting his conviction thrown out. Because the Eikelenbooms are now working for the attorney general’s office,


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16159866?source=pkg

Masters pushing to unseat judges who prosecuted him


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15410724?source=pkg

Cop in Tim Masters case indicted on perjury charges




Pro Bono my a$$.

 

[beach]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_cFtlsWfOk57J93gB3DJt7O/1

Article 12/14/2008


They average 20 cases a year, with payment coming from lawyers, defense funds, prosecutors, family members - whoever's hiring.

In 2005, they founded Independent Forensic Services out of their home. Every room, aside from the bedroom and bathroom, is lab space. The Eikelenbooms rarely have people over; they can't risk contaminating any evidence, and there is no place to eat or drink. But they like it this way - staging crime scenes all day, working on DNA recovery and lab analysis, then curling up in bed at night to watch their favorite shows: "Law & Order" and "CSI." (Richard just bought a new microscope used by an investigator on a recent episode of "CSI.")

While here, the Eikelenbooms will also be looking at houses in Colorado; their goal is to be based in the States full-time. "America is much bigger; you have more cases, and more interesting cases," says Richard. "People can go from state to state to kill and dump. In Holland, we have 16 million people living in a 50x100 mile area - it's hard to dump a body."

"Plus," Selma says, "your houses in the States are so huge."

Maybe the money that someone "was" going to pay them for work on the Caylee case.....was supposed to pay for that "big" house.

I am laughing so hard I can barely breathe. :floorlaugh:

A mere 5 years ago they founded this "lab" IN THEIR HOME!!! I don't give a flip if they have no visitors and don't eat/drink at home, that is a HUGE risk for contamination.

WTH would make ANYONE think critical evidence would be sent overseas to this bunch?!?

Oh yeah, they're "renowned" alright....only in their own minds as Jeff Ashton pointed out at the hearing.

 

[sleutherontheside]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/48hours/main4630559_page7.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Aired 11/29/08

But they didn't have a sample of Hammond's DNA for comparison, and without it, the Eikelenbooms couldn't rule him in or out. That was just fine with Tim's defense because they needed to keep suspicion of Hammond alive. If DNA cleared him, then the spotlight would be right back on Tim.
Wymore says the biggest challenge was to get this evidence to Holland. "I think this was quite unique. I believe never happened that a case in the States went out of the States."

"David Wymore and Maria Liu said 'Linda, they'll never let that evidence out of the United States.' It never happened before," Wheeler remembers.

The prosecution fought hard to prevent it happening this time, but in the end, the judge did insist that someone had to escort the clothes to Holland.

 

[sleutherontheside]

So my thought bubble is this.....could the defense do everything within their power to point a finger at RK.....cast doubt, file motions to get disparaging statements about him enetered into the record, attempt to have "prior bad acts" allowed, have "someone" find unknown DNA.......recognize that the court would NEVER grant a request for RK's DNA, and then say...

"Well we didn't have his DNA to rule him out so he remains a reasonable "other dude" for our purposes.

I am beginning to see "WHY" the State has an issue with the Eikelenbooms.

Anyone?????


To add...http://freetimmastersbecause.blogspot.com/

snip
Why this matters

The report says, "The People would assert that because Hammond cannot be proven by the defense to qualify as an alternate suspect, as a matter of law, that the failure to disclose information relating to his matters does not warrant the relief sought by the defendant." Some of us People, however, feel that the authorities made it impossible for anything to be proven by anybody.

Here's what it boils down to. If Hammond had officially been named a suspect, then the state would have had to give information about him to the original defense lawyers before Tim's trial, as "discovery." At that time, knowledge of Hammond's dual careers - professional surgeon and DIY pornographer - would have thrown a ton of reasonable doubt on the guilt of Tim Masters - enough doubt to acquit him, probably. Remember, the trial was nearly ten years ago. Hold that thought and…

Fast-forward to 2007, when we all became well-informed Hammondologists, once Tim's post-conviction lawyers and some wide-awake journalists called attention to the doctor. Many people considered him a beaut of an alternative suspect, right up until late 2007, when the DNA revelations were made. Since then, some people have stopped believing that Hammond killed Hettrick. Others are still not convinced. Either way, this is according to what we know, or think we know, now.

Okay, rewind back to the 1999 trial. At that time, knowing what was known then, the twisto doctor should have been in the equation. But the defense was not informed about any possible Hammond relevance, because he wasn't a quote, suspect, unquote. No, he was a "person of interest." It's a matter of semantics. The police were meticulously careful never to deem him a suspect, and because of that fine distinction in terminology, our present-day Special Prosecutor cannot decree that information on Hammond was wrongly withheld. Slick move!


Anyone see a pattern here????

 

[ohiogirl]

Tim Masters was innocent. I don't know why these dna experts are being touted as monsters. They do what all other dna labs do, test dna. If they are on the side of the defense, it doesn't make it voodoo. imo.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Tim Masters was innocent. I don't know why these dna experts are being touted as monsters. They do what all other dna labs do, test dna. If they are on the side of the defense, it doesn't make it voodoo. imo.

Tim Masters was a unique case. While the reasonable doubt allowed him to go free after conviction there remain other key pieces of evidence that still point to him (such as shoe prints). There is a big difference between being innocent and being having a conviction overturned.

Here are a few articles that clearly indicate while he was freed he has never been exonerated.

Though Masters has been freed, he is still waiting to be formally exonerated. http://cbs4denver.com/news/peggy.hettrick.masters.2.1920472.html[

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20100609/NEWS01/6090331/City-to-pay-Masters-5-9M

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20100609/NEWS01/6090332/Police-Focus-still-on-Hettrick-s-murder

I don't see anyone calling the Eikelenboom's monsters. Simply discussion about their involvement in other cases and similarities to the current one.

 

[gitana1]

Uhm. . . Ok. . . This article states that SE is hard-nosed, known for snapping at lazy investigators, sloppy lab techs, and people who don't share her socialists views. :waitasec: She DOES realize that Colorado is situated in the United States of America, doesn't she?

And, I wonder how she feels about snapping at lazy defense attorneys? Oh, wait! Apparently, she enjoys working with them if it will get her name on the airwaves. I am soooo not impressed!

Off topic but in response to your post, there are plenty of people with "socialist" views who are American citizens. Also, we have a lot of socialism in our country: The post office, the libraries, the public school system, public fire and police departments, etc. The term "socialism" is sometimes taken out context in the U.S. or misunderstood. It basically just means that instead of allowing a few corporations or people to control the economy and the benefits of it, everyone will have a say. I don't think that view is necessarily un-American.

Nevertheless (and back on topic), I think this lady sounds combative, perhaps a bit nutty, and publicity hungry. Her possible political views are not the reason for my opinion. She'll probably do fine residing in the U.S. However, I don't know that she'll do too well on the stand if she has an aggressive, bossy attitude. And that's what will be important here. I also think it's interesting that JB has to find "quirky" people from other countries to try to defend his case. He can't find anyone in the United States with an actual degree to test evidence? Don't get me wrong, I love Holland, my mom's from there. But we lead (in the U.S.) in forensic science. To me the fact that he is going wherever he can and finding whomever he can, evidences his increasing desperation.

 

[sleutherontheside]

As far as the issue that the State (voiced by Jeff Ashton) may have with the Eikelenboom's......

IMO it is possible that their CBS special about the Master's case which aired within days (12/14/10) of Caylee's body being found combined with their past "payment history" seem to debunk the notion of their "pro bono" participation.

As we saw in the recusal of Judge Strickland if their is a doubt about a conflict of interest it is best to remove it. Just last week the JAC wanted clarification of any payment for KC's defense by ANYONE to be disclosed.

The State has reason to "doubt". It's called a $100,000 fee to the Eikelenboom's in another case.

 

[joypath]

I am only thinking that DNA is a small part of it. Perhaps a revisit of hair testing for tox screens, the fluids found in the gatorade bottle.

Additionally, it could explain why the A's had her cremated. If the defense wants to do a specific test and CAN'T because Caylee was cremated.....the presser where JB read the letter stating KC's opposition to the cremation might prove relevent. Hmmmmmmmm

And that's where the state could "chat" about the second autopsy IF Dr. Werner Spitz chose NOT to take his own samples for testing! Yup, that's what YOUR expert witness is suppose to do, either arrange to have "split sampling" with the state and/or run them yourself! SO....another door slamming shut!

 

[RR0004]

http://www.denverpost.com/evidence/ci_6373222

The attorney general’s office has paid a Dutch company about $100,000 for the DNA work. That company, Independent Forensic Services, previously extracted touch DNA evidence that helped free the man initially convicted of Hettrick’s murder.



In an interview Friday, Masters said the touch DNA evidence extracted by Selena and Richard Eikelenboom of IFS played a “crucial” role in getting his conviction thrown out. Because the Eikelenbooms are now working for the attorney general’s office,


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16159866?source=pkg

Masters pushing to unseat judges who prosecuted him


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15410724?source=pkg

Cop in Tim Masters case indicted on perjury charges




Pro Bono my a$$.

How many times have we heard Cindy rant on about how Casey was zeroed in on by LE early on...that they never looked anywhere else?
I agree...RK may very well be the new Dr. Hammond.

ETA: and in no way do I think that RK has committed any crime. Just used Dr. Hammond for analogy purposes.

 

[Snaz]

And that's where the state could "chat" about the second autopsy IF Dr. Werner Spitz chose NOT to take his own samples for testing! Yup, that's what YOUR expert witness is suppose to do, either arrange to have "split sampling" with the state and/or run them yourself! SO....another door slamming shut!

LOVE IT!!!! Thank you, joypath!! :woohoo:

 

[beach]

Tim Masters was innocent. I don't know why these dna experts are being touted as monsters. They do what all other dna labs do, test dna. If they are on the side of the defense, it doesn't make it voodoo. imo.

To clarify, I don't know anything more about this lab and/or these techs other than what I have read on this site and links provided. In no way did I mean to imply they are monsters. I don't know enough about them to make such an assumption. Do I trust that their motives are pure in offering to do this pro bono? No, I do not.

My post and reaction was really in response to Baez's request. Gitana expressed my feelings below (*snipped* & BBM for subject matter). I admit that I do find it hilarious that this lab was founded only 5 years ago out of their living room. It is little wonder why the SA would express concern about it meeting the requirements necessary to meet ASCLD or FQS certification. :innocent:

Nevertheless (and back on topic), I think this lady sounds combative, perhaps a bit nutty, and publicity hungry. Her possible political views are not the reason for my opinion. She'll probably do fine residing in the U.S. However, I don't know that she'll do too well on the stand if she has an aggressive, bossy attitude. And that's what will be important here. I also think it's interesting that JB has to find "quirky" people from other countries to try to defend his case. He can't find anyone in the United States with an actual degree to test evidence? Don't get me wrong, I love Holland, my mom's from there. But we lead (in the U.S.) in forensic science. To me the fact that he is going wherever he can and finding whomever he can, evidences his increasing desperation.

To add to that - The defense was asking the Court to make an exception to the FL R. Crim. P 3.853(c)(7) which states:
"The court-ordered DNA testing shall be ordered to be conducted by the Department of Law Enforcement or its designee, as provided by statute. However, the court, upon showing of a good cause, may order testing by another laboratory or agency certified by the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors Laboratory Accreditation Board (ASCLD/LAB) or Forensic Quality Services, Inc. (FQS) if requested by a movant who can bear the cost of such testing."

So, the defense had tons of labs to choose from that would meet those requirements and adhere to the statutory rule, yet ONCE AGAIN....they want an exception to an already broad selection of labs. WHY????

I think SOTS is on to something. There is/are ulterior motive(s) here. Probably on both parts - the defense and the lab. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Gma Kat]

...............................snipped for brevity by Gma Kat


"But Elkelenboom found his quarry in the interior lining of Hettrick's panties: the skin of an unknown man-a full genetic profile."[/I][/B]

http://www.denverpost.com/evidence/ci_6373222

So my question is.........did anyone at any time (other than KC) dress Caylee? And given the answer to that question.......where will the bus stop next???

Re BBM: You know you are too engrossed in this case when you stop and look around to make sure the bus is not headed at YOU!

 

[Dear Prudence]

How many times have we heard Cindy rant on about how Casey was zeroed in on by LE early on...that they never looked anywhere else?
I agree...RK may very well be the new Dr. Hammond.

ETA: and in no way do I think that RK has committed any crime. Just used Dr. Hammond for analogy purposes.

Dr. Hammond might be the perfect analogy for Roy Kronk because Dr. Hammond had nothing to do with the murder Peggy Hettrick and the DNA proved that.

 

[Dear Prudence]

As far as the issue that the State (voiced by Jeff Ashton) may have with the Eikelenboom's......

IMO it is possible that their CBS special about the Master's case which aired within days (12/14/10) of Caylee's body being found combined with their past "payment history" seem to debunk the notion of their "pro bono" participation.

As we saw in the recusal of Judge Strickland if their is a doubt about a conflict of interest it is best to remove it. Just last week the JAC wanted clarification of any payment for KC's defense by ANYONE to be disclosed.

The State has reason to "doubt". It's called a $100,000 fee to the Eikelenboom's in another case.

Did the Eikelenbooms say they would do the Master's case pro bono and then go back on that? Just because they charge a fee in one case doen't mean they will in every case. I'm having trouble following the inferences from the Master's case as you're applying them to the Anthony case. I don't see the similarities at all. But sometimes I'm dense and need things spelled out for me.

I do think the E's were going to do ICA's case for no fee or "pro bono" because of the publicity it would garner. But it is now a moot point because they won't be examining any evidence in this case. Unless of course it's during appeal.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Did the Eikelenbooms say they would do the Master's case pro bono and then go back on that? Just because they charge a fee in one case doen't mean they will in every case. I'm having trouble following the inferences from the Master's case as you're applying them to the Anthony case. I don't see the similarities at all. But sometimes I'm dense and need things spelled out for me.

I do think the E's were going to do ICA's case for no fee or "pro bono" because of the publicity it would garner. But it is now a moot point because they won't be examining any evidence in this case. Unless of course it's during appeal.

I never stated anything about them going back on anything.

As far as a fee.....I never stated that because they are paid a VERY generous fee in one case that they have to in another. I simply considered their "fee" in one case compared to "no fee" in KC's case.

As far as similarities.....those are entirely subjective.

 

[Dear Prudence]

I never stated anything about them going back on anything.

As far as a fee.....I never stated that because they are paid a VERY generous fee in one case that they have to in another. I simply considered their "fee" in one case compared to "no fee" in KC's case.

As far as similarities.....those are entirely subjective.

I was just trying to understand what you were implying when you said the following because sometimes subtlety doesn't work on me and it takes a bit of pounding to get it through my head.

Pro Bono my a$$.

and

The State has reason to "doubt". It's called a $100,000 fee to the Eikelenboom's in another case.

I realize your statements were subjective and I did not mean to imply otherwise. I was hoping you would elaborate on your reasoning because I wasn't following the logic. I do see what you are saying now that the huge fee in one case as compared to no fee in another raises suspicion, so thanks for explaining.

 

[sleutherontheside]

How funny that I had just posted in #177 about this exact issue and a mere hour and 20 minutes later it is an article in the OS.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-synthetic-marijuana-legal-pot-20101001,0,4149309.story

BTW.....I am in no way affiliated with the OS......so either this is an epic coincidence or they read here.......

OR........I wasn't far off in my thought process. Hmmmmmmmmmm


Perhaps if the RK bus stalls they will try to drive one into TL's path. When will the collateral damage end????





Additionally........I just found this...http://www.nmslabs.com/tests/Synthetic-Cannabinoids-Identification--Solid/7472SL

Synthetic Cannabinoids Identification, Solid Test (7472SL)

Method(s)

Gas Chromatography/Mass SPectrometry (GC/MS), Thin Layer Chromatography (TLC)

Gas chromatography as in the "junk science" air tests that showed chloroform.