The Ramsey case - in real time

[Holdontoyourhat]

Only if Patsy lied about where she was born, and underwent a sex change operation before becoming the Patsy we know today

While ur laughing, please take a look at your scanned copy of the RN, at the letter 'f' in follow, in the first paragraph. If you tell me that was written by a native English speaking American, then yur :liar:

 

[Linda7NJ]

While ur laughing, please take a look at your scanned copy of the RN, at the letter 'f' in follow, in the first paragraph. If you tell me that was written by a native English speaking American, then yur :liar:

Please read the last two posts

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33736&page=2

 

[aussiesheila]

The idea that the R's were connected to anything like this is drawn literally out of thin air. Its based only on the fact that a child was murdered in the same house.

IOW, I'm not sure you can project an arbitrary personality (child abuser, child killer, pedophile, etc.) onto somebody just because he/she was under the same roof.

Not quite Holdontoyourhat, my theory arises from what seems to me to be evidence that, not only was JonBenet sexually abused just prior to her death, but also for months, perhaps years prior. So as I was reading PMPT I looked for likely suspect pedophiles who were associated with the family and, based on what was said about them in the book found four very likely people. I certainly didn't pull my idea out of thin air. And it is not based on the fact that a child was murdered in the same house. The same house as who? I think she was murdered in the house of her parents. I don't think her parents had anything to do with the murder or the sexual abuse. I do however, think Patsy was aware that people very close to her were abusing her daughter and she let it happen, because it suited her. Of course, she didn't expect JonBenet to be killed, but once she was aware that she had been, I think Patsy let herself be persuaded to write the ransom note by the pedophiles. I can't imagine she would have wanted John to find out what she been allowing to happen to JonBenet, so I think it would have been easy for the pedophiles to 'blackmail' her into protecting them.

If you mean that I have projected an arbitrary personality on someone who lived under the same roof ie her father (or brother), then you have misunderstood what I have been saying. I have never believed John (or Burke) was sexually abusing JonBenet. I think the abuse was perpetrated by others, mostly when John was away on business. And what is more I don't think John knew anything at all about it, I don't think he even suspected anything. If he had, I believe he would have stopped it immediately.

 

[ellen13]

Where can I find that photo? I didn't think there were any photos from

the party floating around????????????

Thanks so much

 

[Cranberry]

I am thinking if I found a 3 page note lying on my stairs and while reading in the first paragraph I read, "At this time we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter" Just reading that and glancing at the very next paragraph I see amounts of money. I don't know about you, but I am believing the note, especially after racing back to my child's room and finding it empty. I would call 911 before I did anything else. I certainly wouldn't be worried if my house had been robbed! I think if looked anywhere at all after that I would have ran & looked outside.

I agree, I would be believing the note and I wouldn't hand it off to my husband without reading it first. I would want to know what it said. It is reasonable to check the house inside and out to see what the heck is going on before calling 911 or anyone else and that wasn't done either.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thanks for the reply BlueCrab. I would have thought that they would have tested any male who was even remotely connected to the Ramseys. But maybe US investigators don't have the power to do that. Then again if they didn't test someone as obvious as Glenn Meyer, maybe they didn't test Don Paugh, Cliff Gaston, Joe Barnhill either for that matter.

aussiesheila,

Joe Barnhill had his DNA tested and he could NOT be excluded as the donor of the DNA found on JonBenet. He also had a key to the Ramsey's house. But the cops didn't suspect Barnhill because they said his shaky hands would not have allowed him to write the ransom note.

 

[BlueCrab]

Where can I find that photo? I didn't think there were any photos from

the party floating around????????????

Thanks so much

ellen13,

I have two group photos of the party on December 23, both apparently taken by John Ramsey since he's not in either of them. One picture shows the children with Santa McReynolds; and the other picture shows the adults with Santa.

I counted 15 adults in the one picture; and eight children in the other picture (four boys and four girls).

I don't remember what site I copied the photos from. ACR probably has them.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not quite Holdontoyourhat, my theory arises from what seems to me to be evidence that, not only was JonBenet sexually abused just prior to her death, but also for months, perhaps years prior. So as I was reading PMPT I looked for likely suspect pedophiles who were associated with the family and, based on what was said about them in the book found four very likely people. I certainly didn't pull my idea out of thin air. And it is not based on the fact that a child was murdered in the same house. The same house as who? I think she was murdered in the house of her parents. I don't think her parents had anything to do with the murder or the sexual abuse. I do however, think Patsy was aware that people very close to her were abusing her daughter and she let it happen, because it suited her. Of course, she didn't expect JonBenet to be killed, but once she was aware that she had been, I think Patsy let herself be persuaded to write the ransom note by the pedophiles. I can't imagine she would have wanted John to find out what she been allowing to happen to JonBenet, so I think it would have been easy for the pedophiles to 'blackmail' her into protecting them.

If you mean that I have projected an arbitrary personality on someone who lived under the same roof ie her father (or brother), then you have misunderstood what I have been saying. I have never believed John (or Burke) was sexually abusing JonBenet. I think the abuse was perpetrated by others, mostly when John was away on business. And what is more I don't think John knew anything at all about it, I don't think he even suspected anything. If he had, I believe he would have stopped it immediately.

Your post: "because it suited her," "let herself be persuaded," "what she been allowing to happen"

These are all arbitrary projections of a hideous personality upon PR, based on nothing more than the fact that she was in the same house. There is no indication, aside from the murder, that there were any pedophiles involved. There's no indication that any of the R's friends or family are pedophiles either.



IOW by your rules you could apply this personality onto any adult female as long as they were under the same roof.

 

[aussiesheila]

Your post: "because it suited her," "let herself be persuaded," "what she been allowing to happen"

These are all arbitrary projections of a hideous personality upon PR, based on nothing more than the fact that she was in the same house. There is no indication, aside from the murder, that there were any pedophiles involved. There's no indication that any of the R's friends or family are pedophiles either.



IOW by your rules you could apply this personality onto any adult female as long as they were under the same roof.

If you want to call what I have projected onto Patsy as a hideous personality then that is your choice of words. I don't think you are correct in saying that I have assigned a particular type of personality on Patsy based on the fact that she lived in the same house as a child who was murdered. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Yes I have tried to analyse Patsy's personality, but I have based my analysis on what I have read about her, isn't that what everyone who posts here has done?

And I'm sorry but I don't agree with you about there being no indication that any of the Ramsey friends or family are pedophiles, I think there are. For starters, the police must have seen indications regarding Patsy's father because they questioned him around that issue, I believe.

 

[Jayelles]

If you want to call what I have projected onto Patsy as a hideous personality then that is your choice of words. I don't think you are correct in saying that I have assigned a particular type of personality on Patsy based on the fact that she lived in the same house as a child who was murdered. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Yes I have tried to analyse Patsy's personality, but I have based my analysis on what I have read about her, isn't that what everyone who posts here has done?

And I'm sorry but I don't agree with you about there being no indication that any of the Ramsey friends or family are pedophiles, I think there are. For starters, the police must have seen indications regarding Patsy's father because they questioned him around that issue, I believe.

We don't know if Patsy's father was questioned along these lines, but thanks to the fact that jameson sold the police tapes to the tabloid newspapers, we do know that Patsy was questioned about innappropriate behaviour towards her and her sisters as children. We have also seen the clip of the video at this point and we saw how Patsy became VERY childlike in her responses - quite a contrast from her "Go back to the damn drawing board!" at another point in ehr interviews.

I found ehr response to the questions about herself being abused rather odd. If anyone asked me if I'd been abused by my father as a child I would have been extremely indignant and positive in my responses that NO, my father was a very modest and decent man!

 

[txsvicki]

IMO an 'English as 2nd language' middle-aged male of foreign nationality wrote that note.

The R's had nothing to do with the murder of their daughter.

But what nationality and has any expert felt the same way? I agree that the note does sound like someone trying to sound a little foreign but I have seen lots of people chatting over on Yahoo from other countries, and they sound nothing like this note, at all.

 

[aussiesheila]

We don't know if Patsy's father was questioned along these lines, but thanks to the fact that jameson sold the police tapes to the tabloid newspapers, we do know that Patsy was questioned about innappropriate behaviour towards her and her sisters as children. We have also seen the clip of the video at this point and we saw how Patsy became VERY childlike in her responses - quite a contrast from her "Go back to the damn drawing board!" at another point in ehr interviews.

I found ehr response to the questions about herself being abused rather odd. If anyone asked me if I'd been abused by my father as a child I would have been extremely indignant and positive in my responses that NO, my father was a very modest and decent man!

I didn't see the clip unfortunately. When you say strange do you mean you had the feeling she HAD experienced inappropriate behaviour from her father?

 

[Jayelles]

I didn't see the clip unfortunately. When you say strange do you mean you had the feeling she HAD experienced inappropriate behaviour from her father?

Her whole demeanour changed at this part of the interview. That is a fact. I would be reluctant to make any interpretation of her demeanour as I am not qualified to do so.

It's possible that this interview is still online. They used to be here:-

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523892.shtml

And here:-

http://www.courttv.com/news/ramsey/

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And I'm sorry but I don't agree with you about there being no indication that any of the Ramsey friends or family are pedophiles, I think there are. For starters, the police must have seen indications regarding Patsy's father because they questioned him around that issue, I believe.

"I think there are," isn't supporting an argument that there are indications of pedophiles, because you've provided no information.

"I believe," PR's father was "questioned around that issue" is too vague, and isn't even being corroborated here, as yet.

Really there's no real indication, like I said, that the R's or their friends are pedophiles. Thats an imaginary idea at this time.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Really there's no real indication, like I said, that the R's or their friends are pedophiles. Thats an imaginary idea at this time.

Really...someone was molesting JonBenet, both before and at the time of her death. The chances are overwhelming that the molester was a close family friend or even more likely, a member of her own family. That person is a pedophile to be using a child for sex, and that's not an imaginary idea.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Really...someone was molesting JonBenet, both before and at the time of her death. The chances are overwhelming that the molester was a close family friend or even more likely, a member of her own family. That person is a pedophile to be using a child for sex, and that's not an imaginary idea.

IMO if you use the murder itself as an argument in favor of a family or friend being a pedophile, it has the appearance of circular reasoning.

IOW, is there any indication aside from the murder, that an R or their friend is a pedophile?

The chances are overwhelming that a child molester would be a close family friend. OK. Agreeing.

The chances are way less overwhelming that a child killer was a close family friend. A molester is not automatically a murderer.

 

[Jayelles]

IMO if you use the murder itself as an argument in favor of a family or friend being a pedophile, it has the appearance of circular reasoning.

IOW, is there any indication aside from the murder, that an R or their friend is a pedophile?

The chances are overwhelming that a child molester would be a close family friend. OK. Agreeing.

The chances are way less overwhelming that a child killer was a close family friend. A molester is not automatically a murderer.

Can't remember what thread you mentioned this to me, but (just curious) - how familar are you with Dave's analysis of the 911 tape?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

IMO if you use the murder itself as an argument in favor of a family or friend being a pedophile, it has the appearance of circular reasoning.

IOW, is there any indication aside from the murder, that an R or their friend is a pedophile?

The chances are overwhelming that a child molester would be a close family friend. OK. Agreeing.

The chances are way less overwhelming that a child killer was a close family friend. A molester is not automatically a murderer.

The indication that one of the Rs or their friends was a molester targeting JonBenet can be found in her medical records, where she had to see the doctor 27 times in three years, frequently for vaginal irritation. The indication can be found in the autopsy report examing her vagina, where there is evidence of chronic and acute abuse. She barely had any hymen at all, at six years old! Someone was molesting her.

This sick sex game was never meant to be murder. That was an unexpected wrench in the works that turned the molester into murderer.

 

[BlueCrab]

The indication that one of the Rs or their friends was a molester targeting JonBenet can be found in her medical records, where she had to see the doctor 27 times in three years, frequently for vaginal irritation. The indication can be found in the autopsy report examing her vagina, where there is evidence of chronic and acute abuse. She barely had any hymen at all, at six years old! Someone was molesting her.

This sick sex game was never meant to be murder. That was an unexpected wrench in the works that turned the molester into murderer.

Nuisanceposter,

I agree that JonBenet had likely been sexually abused.

Additional evidence of having been molested in days prior to the murder include the size of the hymenal orifice being approximately twice the size it should have been; and both the acute and the chronic vaginal injuries being at the same 7 o'clock position (suggesting the same person inflicted both the acute and the chronic injuries).

The injuries to the vagina point to a family member, because only a family member would likely be able to get to JonBenet on a daily basis.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The indication that one of the Rs or their friends was a molester targeting JonBenet can be found in her medical records, where she had to see the doctor 27 times in three years, frequently for vaginal irritation. The indication can be found in the autopsy report examing her vagina, where there is evidence of chronic and acute abuse. She barely had any hymen at all, at six years old! Someone was molesting her.

This sick sex game was never meant to be murder. That was an unexpected wrench in the works that turned the molester into murderer.

The deep furrow around JBR's neck, and the crack in her head, are evidence of a 'deliberate and brutal murder,' more so than the vaginal inflammation is evidence of 'chronic sexual abuse occurring over years and years'.

While the deep furrow can only be rationally interpreted as intending to kill, the vaginal inflammation could also be interpreted as repreated exposure to irritants or allergens.

Therefore, since JBR was brutally murdered (the only possible interpretation), as evidenced by the deep furrow around her neck, the idea of something going wrong with the 'same old game' can be safely ruled out. Players of the same old game aren't going to 'brutally' murder JBR, are they?