Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

[imstilla.grandma]

Presser-

-100% search and rescue mission operation. They operate with hope.

-Canadian P3 detected ‘banging sounds’
yesterday and this morning in one location

-they are also investigating the last known location

-experts are analyzing the sounds, they won’t comment on the reports of the sounds coming at 30 minute intervals

-the object found is not related to the Titan

-two ROVs are in the water, capable of diving 4000 metres, one is investigating the sounds

-will not discuss hours of oxygen left, ‘it’s just one data point’

If they were coming at 30 minute intervals, what is the significance besides a pattern? How would they orchestrate an approx timing?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Oxygen supply and food rations have been mentioned, but what about drinking water?

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

If they were coming at 30 minute intervals, what is the significance besides a pattern? How would they orchestrate an approx timing?

I read something earlier about some sort of training to do them in 30 minutes intervals. I believe it was rooted in military service but I could be wrong. I'm going to try and find the source.

ETA: Every 30 minutes also lends credence to it being created by man as opposed to some natural occurence.

 

[Teche]

Experts have stated that making noise/banging noise in the sub is something that the French Navy vet would know was important to do to send sonar signals to anyone who would be looking for them, and that it would be normal to send these distress/location signals on the hour and half hour. He would be trained to do this.

So I am not giving up hope. I read that the Canadian plane with sonar ability have given this information/recordings etc. to the U.S. Navy to analyze yesterday. We still have today.

The French Navy vet should be able to send/bang a Morse code that could be differentiated from the banging of the Titanic. a navy vet would know that rescue teams are listening for sounds.

 

[10ofRods]

Cell phones dont work underwater. Radio waves don't penetrate water except at extreme low frequency and even that wont at this depth. Undersate communication is by acoustics not radio waves mostly, and that is very limited.

I'm not sure what kind of signal was sent from the mother ship to the Titan, which received it via transponder (see below). So it likely wasn't cellular. However, it has been reported that way several times (I did find a good article on the situation - it's the last one below).

The first article below does not state how deep they were usually able to use this method, but I would assume since they had used it before, they knew something about it worked. Newsweek doesn't have as much detail as Scientific American - but the Scientific American article states that the Titan could only receive and not send messages. Via sonar transponder, if I'm reading correctly.

This article describes the use of texts as long as the Titan was directly under the mother ship. The idea was supposed to be that the mother ship could keep track and send texts as long as the two vessels worked in unison and the mother ship stayed in column with the submersible.

The Titanic sub could only receive messages directly below the support ship

The small submersible, operated by OceanGate Expeditions, disappeared just 1 hour and 45 minutes into its dive to the famed wreckage of the Titanic on June 18.

www.newsweek.com

From the article:

The vessels can send short messages back and forth, however the data shared between the two is extremely limited, Stefan Williams, a professor at the School of Aerospace, Mechanical and Mechatronic Engineering Australian Centre for Field Robotics at the University of Sydney, reported on The Conversation.

The means of sending the messages was, according to this article, text messages. Is there something else that sends texts besides cellular service? GPS doesn't work under water, but apparently, if the mother ship was directly over the submersible, text messages did work. However, articles where the writer has more expertise (IMO) state that the communication was not "back and forth."

Many articles (including the one above) mention that an electrical outage/power failure would have meant that the pings no longer got sent. Texts would have been only incoming (the Titan wasn't texting back, from what I understand).

This has lead several experts who are opining in the media to ask whether, in fact, the Titan had a back-up battery. The illustration posted by @imstilla.grandma (which is the best I've seen) on the construction of the sub, with no mention of a back-up battery (I figure someone will report more on these aspects in coming days, possibly in online versions of magazines).

And, so I did go search some more and found this excellent article:

Missing Titanic Sub: What Could Have Gone Wrong?

A submersible called Titan has gone missing on a dive to the remains of of the Titanic

www.scientificamerican.com

However, details missing from all articles include whatever mechanisms they had for jettisoning ballast, which is supposed to happen automatically (according to various experts) in certain scenarios (without power, for example). I suppose that's why the "they're caught in something down below" is a popular theory, since theoretically, the Titan should have surfaced on its own right now.

The Scientific American article expresses confidence that the Titan did have some automatic way of jettisoning and therefore, surfacing.

IMO.

 

[bestill]

I don't understand how they don't know how many food rations they have aboard.

This information should be readily available. It sounds like the Titan organisers don't know themselves? That's quite concerning in terms of Titan's overall organization if that's the case MOO.

This entire excursion is quite concerning. I am not at all impressed with the CEO and his comments about 50 year old white guys not being inspiring and the submersible being invulnerable. JMO

Titanic tour CEO Stockton Rush said he didn't hire '50-year-old white guys' because they were NOT 'inspirational' - as footage emerges of him boasting of previous 'invulnerable' sub designed to explore 'unsinkable' Titanic​

Stockton Rush said he didn't hire '50-year-old white guys'

Stockton Rush, 61, the CEO of OceanGate Expeditions once said he refused to hire '50-year-old white guys' because they are not 'inspirational.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Lexiintoronto]

If they were coming at 30 minute intervals, what is the significance besides a pattern? How would they orchestrate an approx timing?

There were reports yesterday that the banging sounds were heard at 30 minute intervals.

Today he wouldn’t comment on the possible pattern (if any) or specifics other to say it sounded like ‘banging’.

The men inside would still likely have phones or watches on, so they’d have a way to tell time, imo.

 

[heartandsoul]

Have you ever laid under a duvet or blanket and very quickly become uncomfortable with the warm air you produce? It’s nasty. If any of them are still alive and conscious, the conditions are about to become truly terrible - if they aren’t already. I can’t think of much worse. Those poor people.

 

[Ursamajr]

After hearing the story from the previous passenger who reported that the Titan had landed on the deck of the Titanic I can't help but wonder if they attempted this action again and there was a collapse of the deck which caused them to get tangled in the wreckage.....

I was wondering this myself but then I figure they would be pretty easy to find if that were the case. Though, I don't think there are many vessels that can just go down to that depth and check so who knows. I really hate this whole thing.

 

[Medstudies]

I have a closer analogy, but will keep it to myself until we know the results. Suffice it to say that “less than expected” is possible.

Apollo 1 Command Module came to my mind

 

[10ofRods]

Oxygen supply and food rations have been mentioned, but what about drinking water?

Insider and other online outlets reported that passengers were each allowed one bottle of water (I'll just prefer to imagine it as a liter, because if it was a half liter bottle, oh my).

3 scenarios probably cover what happened to the Titanic submersible, experts say. Only one carries much chance of survival.

Banging noises heard by the coast guard raise the prospect of the passengers still being alive, an expert said. But time is running out to rescue them.

www.insider.com

I think some articles have confused the toilet (also a plastic bottle with ziplock bags as overflow) with the water supply, but early on, snacks and 1 bottle of water were mentioned. Somewhere there's an article mentioning that guests were asked not to eat for a certain period before embarking, due to the toilet issues.

IMO.

 

[happyday]

What are their several ways of signaling they are at the surface? I know they were using cell phones on the way down, but then that communication stopped.

Gosh I read it in one of the articles posted here, but I’ll have to see if I can find it. I think it said things like a strobe light and some other ways too, but let me go see if I can find it.

 

[Ursamajr]

This entire excursion is quite concerning. I am not at all impressed with the CEO and his comments about 50 year old white guys not being inspiring and the submersible being invulnerable. JMO

An unchecked ego has led many men to death throughout history.

 

[Gemmie]

Have you ever laid under a duvet or blanket and very quickly become uncomfortable with the warm air you produce? It’s nasty. If any of them are still alive and conscious, the conditions are about to become truly terrible - if they aren’t already. I can’t think of much worse. Those poor people.

From what I've read it's the opposite, hypothermia vs too hot.

The submersible's ability to filter out carbon dioxide is also a concerning factor if compromised, said Dr. Alexander Isakov, Emory University emergency medicine physician and a former diving medical officer with the U.S. Navy. Life-threatening hypothermia is a concern, too, he said. The submersible's ability to maintain a comfortable temperature is essential amid the extreme cold of the ocean's depths.

Missing Titanic submersible live updates: Search expands 'exponentially'; more sounds heard

The search for a missing Titanic tourist submersible is now in an area roughly two times the size of Connecticut and 2.5 miles deep, officials say.

www.usatoday.com

There was an expert I quoted in the prev thread that I heard on Bloomberg news last night talking about hypothermia, and then going to sleep, and then it's over.

 

[dotr]

Titanic submarine search: More ‘banging noises’ heard Wednesday as rescue crews search for source

With time running low, “I can’t tell you what the noises are, but we are searching where the noises are,” says coast guard officer.

www.thestar.com

rbbm lengthy.
''Search crews looking for the Titan submarine have heard additional “banging noises” on Wednesday morning — potential signs that the five-man crew are alive — but have yet to locate the vessel lost in the Atlantic Ocean.

The noises were first detected Tuesday night and heard again on Wednesday morning by Canadian P3 planes, which are used for conducting surface and subsurface surveillance over water.

Search-and-rescue officials have responded by deploying two remotely operated underwater vehicles capable of descending to 4,000 metres below sea level, where the Titanic shipwreck — the intended destination of the five underwater explorers aboard the Titan — is located.


“We need to have hope,” said Capt. Jamie Frederick, the U.S. Coast Guard officer co-ordinating the search-and-rescue operation. “I can’t tell you what the noises are, but we are searching where the noises are.”

The sea floor where the Titanic wreckage lies is 3,800 metres below sea level. At that depth, the water is deathly cold, and the pressure is “ridiculous.”

...........
“Even though, engineering-wise, it may be built to withstand that, if there is a failure that would be catastrophic, because it would just get crushed like a tin can,” Garcia said.

Every turn of the clock and every breath of the five people aboard reduces the chances of a successful outcome.

“In a small space like that, when the carbon dioxide gets to five per cent, or 50,000 parts per million by volume in that space … you’re already going to start getting headaches, your respirations are going to increase, your heart rate is going to increase, you might get dizzy, your cognitive function might slightly start to get affected,” Garcia explained.
“Then, of course, when your respirations and heart rate pick up then you’re going to be breathing more and faster and producing even more carbon dioxide.”

If it were him trapped inside the carbon fibre vessel, Garcia said the priority would be to control the “internal atmosphere” — increasing oxygen and reducing carbon dioxide — as much as possible.

“I would try to keep everyone calm. I would say, ‘Look, I realize this may look bad but … right now we have to wait and see if they can locate us and we can communicate, but we have to stay calm, try to control your breathing, try not to move around too much.”




''

 

[heartandsoul]

From what I've read it's the opposite, hypothermia vs too hot.

The submersible's ability to filter out carbon dioxide is also a concerning factor if compromised, said Dr. Alexander Isakov, Emory University emergency medicine physician and a former diving medical officer with the U.S. Navy. Life-threatening hypothermia is a concern, too, he said. The submersible's ability to maintain a comfortable temperature is essential amid the extreme cold of the ocean's depths.

Missing Titanic submersible live updates: Search expands 'exponentially'; more sounds heard

The search for a missing Titanic tourist submersible is now in an area roughly two times the size of Connecticut and 2.5 miles deep, officials say.

www.usatoday.com

There was an expert I quoted in the prev thread that I heard on Bloomberg news last night talking about hypothermia and then going to sleep, and then it's over.

In a way, that’d be a blessing. I’m going to try and think of that instead, thank you.

 

[gliving]

It's not text messaging in the traditional way which is what your post made it sound like from the phrasing used so my bad. A similar system was used on the Deepsea Challenger which has a lot of information about it if you're interested (or anyone else is)

Anyway, as I said in the post the communication system dropped out very frequently from a number of reports and this time it didn't come back for whatever reason - though as I would understand communicating under water is very difficult so may not have been a "warning" of things going wrong necessarily

I'm wondering if the GPS system was somehow connected to the acoustic messaging system though because without the messaging system working the GPS is sort of useless as it's primary purpose seems to be connected to the messaging system rather than part of a safety system from everything I've read?

​

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/20/us/titanic-shipwreck-vessel-missing-tuesday/index.html

A mother ship can communicate with a submersible “via text messages which are exchanged via a USBL (ultra-short baseline) acoustic system,” according to OceanGate Expeditions’ archived website. The submersible is required to communicate with the ship every 15 minutes or more frequently, if needed, the site says. That USBL system is the only communications link between the submersible and the surface, it adds.

Ultra-short baseline acoustic positioning system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An acoustic pulse is transmitted by the transceiver and detected by the subsea transponder, which replies with its own acoustic pulse. This return pulse is detected by the shipboard transceiver. The time from the transmission of the initial acoustic pulse until the reply is detected is measured by the USBL system and is converted into a range.

To calculate a subsea position, the USBL calculates both a range and an angle from the transceiver to the subsea beacon. Angles are measured by the transceiver, which contains an array of transducers. The transceiver head normally contains three or more transducers separated by a baseline of 10 cm or less. A method called “phase-differencing” within this transducer array is used to calculate the direction to the subsea transponder.

 

[happyday]

The sub had the ability to send a sonar ‘ping’ to its location every 15 minutes, but that stopped at 1:45 minutes into the dive.

Yeah but didn’t I read that once they got to the surface they had more ways to signal? Anyone else remember reading that? That’s one reason I’ve been pretty sure they did not surface.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Apollo 1 Command Module came to my mind

All I can think about are the Pearl Harbour sailors that were banging. I hate the thought of them hoping for a rescue, especially the father.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Does anyone know whether they’ve managed to get cameras down to the Titanic wreck yet? Gotta be the first place they’ll look.

Also, we’ve talked a lot about oxygen running out, but how exactly is the sub powered? Battery, I assume, so what’s the lifespan on that?

This banging noises thing has made me feel so uneasy. It’s just horrible