Trial Discussion Thread #29

[TipDog]

Another part of Oscar's story that doesn't ring true to me is him struggling to pick her up. On his version, he had his legs on. If you look at the blood pools in the toilet room and in the bathroom, they are really not very disturbed.

If he was shuffling around in that toilet room as he described, with her full weight on top of him, and his legs hitting the wall (his explanation for the blood mark to the right of the rack) there's no way that spatter would have remained the way we saw it.

Therefore, I don't think he needed Stander to help him move her at all. He called Stander for another reason.

First off, if you are the lady who owns Juror#13 blog, thank you! I can't watch the trial except archived videos and since I try to have a life, I can't always get to them. So, your blog helps so much (and is well written).

As for the call to Stander, my mother thinks it was definitely for nefarious reasons. She believes OP had other ideas about what to do with RS's body that didn't involve any hospital. I don't know that I can agree with her as it just seems to far fetched to believe the Standers would go in on it, but who knows.

Regardless, I agree that OP did not call Stander to help move RS.

 

[crasshopper]

Aw, thank you.
I did wonder about that possibility

Also just came acroos this article. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2014/04/oscar-pistoriuss-trigger.html

 

[delilah]

BIB .. not only that, but the way he said it was almost like a joke .. like something he would say at the shooting range. I was gobsmacked when I heard him say what he did, and the way he said it.

Yes, I thought that too. He said it in a very matter of fact way, which was really strange.

 

[fox1lady]

BBM: I don't understand your thinking here. For me it would work if he was holding the gun and there was an earthquake and it went off while in his hand.

The "involuntarily" word works if what Oscar says is true. But he still must accept responsibility for his actions.

I'm seriously baffled that he doesn't take responsibility for shooting... it's not like he was forced to go get a gun in the first place is it? I hope the judge locks him up just for that alone... he is trying to shift blame every way possible.

 

[weeeva]

Hmm. OP doesn't really strike me as a god fearing Christian... Maybe it's the gun fetish, maybe it's the reckless behaviour, maybe it's the aggressive argumentative nature, threatening people - girls, blokes, whoever dares upset him. Or maybe it's the multiple flings with younger women, the partying, the driving insanely fast, the shooting guns out of windows, in restaurants, at zombie melons, or dying dogs.
And that's all we know about.. Heaven knows (pun) what other stuff he's done.

I don't buy the God thing AT ALL.
Its just another cynical ploy to court sympathy/favour with gullible people and as a devout atheist, it really winds me up.
Total cop out.
And the judge will not buy it.

Excuse me TD, there is no one a more devout atheist than me but I did not find it necessary to bring that up. As far as his own testimony in court, I do not buy the god thing either. I was referring solely to the eye witness accounts of the night in question. So sorry, but you have been wound up by one of your own, another atheist. It just goes to show that atheists have only one thing in common, their atheism.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BIB

I think she'd have locked the door and then gotten down and away from the door if she thought there was an intruder (as per OP's version). I believe Nel suggested this as well, didn't he? The idea of her being up against the door suggests a familiarity with the danger. And I could imagine her screaming but also pleading with OP to back away and calm down. I don't think she believed he would actually shoot her until he did, in her hip, then her screaming would have intensified as she fell back over that magazine rack. But it's hard for me not to think that his gun wasn't present in her mind. She was primed, and not for the reasons OP claims, IMO.

I can even envision a scenario in which OP becomes quiet and she might have thought he'd left the bathroom, thus pressing herself up against the door to listen, just before the first shot.

Oh, such a horrible fate for her. Just thinking of all of it makes my stomach hurt.

Yes it is totally heartbreaking to think about .

 

[Viper]

A ballistics expert like Mangena? What would be helpful to OP I wonder?

Well if he can do a better job than the pathology professor and the geology forensic examiner at convincing the Court that OP shot so fast that it was impossible for Reeva to have cried out in blood curdling screams, that would be most helpful! LOL! But I have this nagging feeling that the Pit Bull is going to bite him hard and tear off a pound of flesh if he tries!

:floorlaugh:

 

[TipDog]

In this video below, if you listen starting at 4:30 you can hear a clip of Justin Devaris talking about his interaction with Oscar that night. It's consistent with Dr. Stipp's testimony that OP was making all sorts of statements to God that night... take me away, help me, I'll dedicate my life to you...

I know this is highly subjective and all we can do is theorize on it, but in my belief, OP was praying to God because he knew exactly what he did. I do not subscribe to the belief that Oscar was a monster or cold-blooded person walking around waiting to kill. But I definitely subscribe to the belief that he was capable of killing.

I think he is a man that has some very deep-seeded issues and they had clearly become worse in recent years. Just look at those months leading up to the killing...

In late September, he shoots his gun through the sunroof after getting in to an argument with police officers.

In October, he and Samantha are having a really rough go of it in their relationship.

Around that time, he confronts van der Burgh in a public place and rattles the man enough so that he feels the need to legally address it.

Oscar flips out and violently threatens Mark Batchelor. Anybody who has seen the size of this man knows that you would have to be nutty to threaten him. He is also seen in this video clip below.

Oscar ends up getting whacked on the head at a party because once again he's shooting his mouth off, or as he likes to put it "diffusing" the situation. Of course, he has no idea who hit him resulting in stitches. That is a laughable lie. He can't say who it was because the incident has been suppressed, once again.

In January, he mysteriously shoots off a gun in a busy restaurant and evades responsibility for it.

Also in January, he is having angry public tantrums causing Reeva to send those emails to him saying she's upset and at times afraid.

Many of the people he was close to Darren, Justin, Sam G... basically have nothing to do with him anymore.

To me, there is a CLEAR pattern of a man on the edge. I don't subscribe to the idea that he was a physical abuser, in the traditional sense of that word. I know there are many ways to interpret abuse. I do think he was a self-absorbed a-hole who also had the ability to charm the socks off of women. So I suppose that could fall in to the emotional abuse category, being that one minute he is being loving and then the next he is chewing them out, blaming them and then asking for forgiveness. I do see signs of this.

I've seen people say on this topic that there is no evidence to suggest that Oscar was capable of intentionally killing her and I just wildly disagree. Based on what we have learned about him, and add in his passion and recklessness for guns, it is a no brainer to me that he had the ability to shoot somebody in a heated situation. If it wasn't Reeva, I think at some point somebody else would have ended up hurt or dead.

I think he was praying to God that night because he knew exactly what he did.


Oscar Pistorius What Really Happened - YouTube

Excellent post and I do agree with every bit of it. What you've touched on are the reasons I keep sticking to the rage motive and that it didn't really have to do with Reeva personally. If I had to pick an animal he resembles, it would be an angry, dumb bull. A bull that, in a fit of rage, charged. Reeva was in the way.

And I do think he's remorseful for actually killing her even though he won't take full responsibility for his actions and tell the truth. I hope he'll have plenty of years in prison to come to terms with that remorse. May it be between him and God, within prison cell walls.

 

[soozieqtips]

Funny how in times of trouble, usually of their own making, they find religion. What ticked me off the most was OP saying (in his out loud "prayer") that he would make sure that Reeva, if He found it was right for her to live, would serve Him and put Him first. OP didn't know that Reeva did not already do that and in fact had no right or place to say that for her.

MOO

And he already knew she was dead (in my opinion) so his promise to God was a pretty empty one.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Nel said she must have slammed and locked it at the same time if OP only heard it slamming. Which means she was running like hell away from him and locked the door as soon as she got to the toilet, and I say that from my 'guilty as sin' point of view. The only one terrified and in fear of their life was Reeva. What a horrible way to die, and now OP's doing everything he can to worm his way out of a murder charge. I wonder if he's ever told a member of his family the truth about what happened that night. He's very close to his sister, so he could have confessed to her, safe in the knowledge she would never expose him - because no one has ever held him to account before.

When OP testified about shooting, the whole family on the bench cried, because until this hour they had never heard of the sequence of events before (for 14 months). OP didn't tell his family. Source: family member, read on twitter bateman or crawford.

 

[TorisMom003]

When OP testified about shooting, the whole family on the bench cried, because until this hour they had never heard of the sequence of events before (for 14 months). OP didn't tell his family. Source: family member, read on twitter bateman or crawford.

And they still haven't heard the truth about the shooting either, IMO.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BIB .. not only that, but the way he said it was almost like a joke .. like something he would say at the shooting range. I was gobsmacked when I heard him say what he did, and the way he said it.

Totally agree
It is incredibly shocking to be so matter of fact about such a serious thing .
He seems almost detached from the reality of what he did at times .

Just adding here it is like when he was not overly emotional when he read the .valentine card relative to the emotion he showed at other times.

 

[whiterum]

That sounds more credible that OP's version (versions). The phone thing has bugged me though. OP said she had it in the toilet with her. I don't know why he offered that information if it was true, because the question of why she had it in there at 3am would have come up.

If she did have it, she didn't use it because either she didn't have a signal, or she was too freaked out by OP going nuts outside the door and couldn't calm herself enough to dial. But maybe it was never in the toilet with her, and she dropped it in a panic when she was trying to get to safety in the toilet, with OP right behind her. Was Reeva's blood on her phone, do we know? If she was holding it when she got shot, wouldn't that have come up already?

Oh, Martin Hood, Sky guy, said he was really surprised that Roux hadn't prepared Dixon more thoroughly. He said Nel is known to be meticulous about detail and goes through everything with his witnesses at least 4 times so there's no chance of them being under prepared. But Roux didn't seem to have prepared Dixon at all.

Nel kept telling OP that he was repeatedly tailoring his version to contradict the States case as revealed during the trial and during his cross, the position of the fan the magazine rack etc. This is a big problem for his DT and since their case is based on what he says in his version/s, also their experts have worked from the standpoint of his version. Each change will impact on another aspect so being the liar that he is his DT are having to keep up to date with each new version and will have to go back to the drawing board.

Maybe poor old Dixon's tests were performed before the recent changes only to find that he unwittingly ended up contradicting OP's latest version LOL.

 

[Emz73]

Good post imo. Maybe one of our Brit contingent took offense at your using the b-word to describe RS's "terror"?

Can't speak for us all but no bloody wouldnt bother us. Do we not like swearing then?
Rumpole not been around lately? His posts deleted?

 

[Nausicaa]

To me it is obvious that this man is guilty because his account of what took place is inconsistent and totally incredible. I also think that, since no credible alternative to intentional killing has been presented, the verdict should be “guilty of murder”.
However, from the point of view of the amateur detective, this is not enough. I want to know what happened. And I am not really convinced that this is at all clear.
Everyone can see that if Reeva was heard by neighbours screaming loud and long before at least some of the shots, OP is necessarily guilty – hence a certain polarization of the opposing camps as to which noises were gunfire and which were cricket-bat blows and as to whether screams heard were in fact uttered by Reeva or by OP.
However, although I think this man is plainly guilty, I am unable to see clearly the nature of the noises the witnesses heard.
1. To my mind the unscientific field experiment, if it showed anything, showed that shots can sound like bat-blows rather than vice versa, and yet we have apparently competent witnesses who were entirely convinced they had heard shots at 3 a.m. and said so before they knew anyone had been injured or killed.
2. If the only shots were fired at around 3.17 OP seems to have sobered up instantaneously from homicidal fury to a quite different attitude – acting (sincerely or insincerely is irrelevant) the part we all know, inventing the outline of what he calls his “version” ©.
3. There is an unacceptable inconsistency between the number of holes in the door, the number of independent injuries and the number of bullet casings found.

The Sherlock Homes in me finds this intolerable and insists that there is a more satisfying explanation that makes sense of these mysteries. Contrary to what has been frequently alleged, it is not necessary for the Prosecution to resolve all the mysteries in order to secure the just conviction that is needed, but it is necessary for my peace of mind and I shall continue to cogitate until it makes sense.

All help welcome!

 

[soozieqtips]

When OP testified about shooting, the whole family on the bench cried, because until this hour they had never heard of the sequence of events before (for 14 months). OP didn't tell his family. Source: family member, read on twitter bateman or crawford.

But if he had confided in one of them about what really happened that night (with none of the lies he's told in court) they couldn't admit they knew anything, because they want to protect him at all costs. I think they were crying as a reaction to OP breaking down on the stand.

 

[delilah]

There was no need for Nel to pursue it further -- OP had been unwittingly trapped in another lie. The only way of minimizing the lie is for the defense to counter with proof that the police damaged the phone and placed the parts under and on the bath matt.

The 2 pieces are visible on the photo below. Recall that von Rensburg thought there were 2 phones initially, when in actual fact he was seeing the separated front and back of the same phone. OPs white iphone was also discovered once the matt was unfolded.

When questioned by Nel, didn't OP say variously he put the phone down and he dropped it? Thus possibly giving an explanation for him for the cover coming off.

 

[james83]

I agree he regrets that night happened but no remorse for reeva just his prediciment

Bang on the money.

 

[lisasalinger]

BIB

I think she'd have locked the door and then gotten down and away from the door if she thought there was an intruder (as per OP's version). I believe Nel suggested this as well, didn't he? The idea of her being up against the door suggests a familiarity with the danger. And I could imagine her screaming but also pleading with OP to back away and calm down. I don't think she believed he would actually shoot her until he did, in her hip, then her screaming would have intensified as she fell back over that magazine rack. But it's hard for me not to think that his gun wasn't present in her mind. She was primed, and not for the reasons OP claims, IMO.

I can even envision a scenario in which OP becomes quiet and she might have thought he'd left the bathroom, thus pressing herself up against the door to listen, just before the first shot.

Oh, such a horrible fate for her. Just thinking of all of it makes my stomach hurt.

First, thanks for reading Juror13

And yes, Nel did make it a very strong point that she was standing in front of the door talking to her attacker... and then she gets shot in the hip. The Judge was watching Nel intently as he was talking about this.

In Nel's summation at the end of the cross, he states the following:

“The court will, on the objective facts and the circumstantial evidence, make the following findings"

• Reeva ate within 2 hours of being shot and killed.

• Whilst awake, there was an argument in which Mrs. van der Mewre heard Reeva’s voice.

• Johnson, Burger and both Stipps heard Reeva’s blood-curdling screams.

• Oscar shot 4 shots through the door while knowing that she was behind the door.

• Oscar knew that she was talking to him.

• She was locked in the toilet room.

• Oscar armed himself with the sole purpose of shooting and killing her.

 

[delilah]

Can't speak for us all but no bloody wouldnt bother us. Do we not like swearing then?
Rumpole not been around lately? His posts deleted?

Hardly anyone in Britland says 'bloody' anymore. We say much, much worse things : )