Thanks @Legally Bland - appreciate your updates
GUILTY UK - Ashley Dale, 28 fatally shot at home, Liverpool - 21 Aug 2022
- Thread starter ElizaKate
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TX - Shots fired, injuries reported at ICE facility in Dallas - Sept 24, 2025- Latest: Inthedetails
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exactly this
is it possible that he's done a Paul Russell and pleaded guilty to something and they're holding back revealing his conviction until after the murder trial verdict?
Oh I didn't know about that!
I'm guessing not, because if that was the case he would probably still be anonymous.
I was just trying to look through the earlier articles. I might be misremembering but was sure there was a line about an unnamed person who was not involved in/leaving flat. I found a reference to kershaw being at the ten street memorial early on so it must be someone else (
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You are right, I remember it too. I’ve started assuming it was Kershaw.
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This is from the night of August 20
Shortly after 7pm, McCaig, Peers and Witham leave the flat. Barry is not seen to leave.
CCTV a couple of minutes later shows the Hyundai driving towards Pilch Lane East.
DS Sutton says eight minutes later, an unknown male walks from Wyndham Avenue and enters 267 Pilch Lane. He is inside for around six minutes, before leaving and walking away in the same direction he came from.
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Hmmm not sure now - sounds more like a transaction maybe.
The Kershaw thing prompted me to search for news articles about the various associates who are named in this trial but not charged or giving evidence and...
Here's a story about David McCaig (presumably the same one) trying to rob a KFC but being unable to open the safe and then getting stuck on the roof!
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Here's a story about David McCaig (presumably the same one) trying to rob a KFC but being unable to open the safe and then getting stuck on the roof!
KFC robbery gang who got stuck on the roof are jailed
Bungled raid saw crooks trapped and with no way to get into the store's safe
The Kershaw thing prompted me to search for news articles about the various associates who are named in this trial but not charged or giving evidence and...
Here's a story about David McCaig (presumably the same one) trying to rob a KFC but being unable to open the safe and then getting stuck on the roof!
KFC robbery gang who got stuck on the roof are jailed
Bungled raid saw crooks trapped and with no way to get into the store's safe
Classic.
My favourite bit from your linked article:
Michael Scholes, defending Fleetwood, said his client was “not the deepest thinker”, adding: “Its planned but it’s not terribly sophisticated. They’re not equipped with a great deal of equipment to crack a safe. I’ve no idea what their intention was but clearly it was doomed to fail.”
Unfortunately, while the shooting up of Harrison's flat seems also to have planned by "not the deepest thinkers," its results were far more deadly.
It also said McCaig had 42 previous convictions but he only got 16 months. I think we need a US-style 3 strikes and you're out system. These f***ers are causing misery for all those living and working around them and the sentences they get are laughable.
I think the trial is on today isn't? Only I can't see anything in the Echo yet.
I think the trial is on today isn't? Only I can't see anything in the Echo yet.
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10:36JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
JC: “In terms of how well you knew Ian Fitzgibbon, would you agree your contact only really developed after the Rikki Warnick funeral?”
NB: “Yeah. that’s correct. We were aware of each other, but we grew closer after that.”
JC: “Your knowledge of Ian Fitzgibbon was minimal up until perhaps Mr Warnick’s funeral?”
NB: “Yes that’s right, yeah.”
JC: “After that it wouldn’t be that you and Mr Fitzgibbon, to use the expression, would hang out with each other individually, on a one on one basis?”
NB: “No, I wouldn’t say so. No.”
JC: “On the limited occasions you did see him, it was usually when Mr Zeisz was there.”
NB: “There were maybe a couple of times I seen him when Mr Zeisz wasn’t there, but the majority of the time.”
JC: “Your friendship was really with Mr Zeisz.”
NB: “Yes it was yeah.”
JC: “Mr Fitzgibbon has only ever been to your home once?”
NB: “Erm, yes. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.”
10:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'Witham is a
Mr Cooper says: “Let me go to the day after these tragic events. On the day after, on the 21st, at round about 11.30, 12.30, did you and Mr Zeisz go round to Mr Fitzgibbon’s home?”
Barry says: “Yes we did.”
JC: “Did you say to Mr Fitzgibbon, words to the effects of, ‘you’ll never believe it we’ve been up all night arguing with Witham. Witham came back to Pilch lane in the early hours and said he shot Lee’s house up’.”
NB: “Yeah I can’t remember word for word, but definitely along them lines.”
JC: “Clearly, Mr Fitzgibbon was shocked to hear this?”
NB: “Yes he was, yes.”
JC: “Did you add, when you checked the papers the following morning, it was very clear Ashley Dale had been killed?”
NB: “That’s correct, yes.”
JC: “Did you go on to say everyone that’s been in the flat is gonna get a knock on their door?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
JC: “Meaning, by the police?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “And making it clear by everybody, you were also saying Mr Fitzgibbon. He’d been in the flat as well?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
JC: “A little later that day, did you Mr Zeisz and Mr Fitzgibbon go to Jefferey Crescent?”
NB: “Yes we did.”
JC: “In Mr Zeisz’s car?”
NB: “Yes we did.”
JC: “To get some weed.”
NB: “Yeah, some cannabis resin.”
JC: “During that trip, during the time you were getting that cannabis resin, were you all continuing to say you couldn’t believe what had happened. What Withamhad said he’d done?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
JC: “Forgive the language but were words said such as ‘Witham is a
’?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “Did you say you were worried you might be dragged into it because you had a past with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “The third event of the day is when you went to meet Davo, or Mr McCaig. Did you, Davo, Mr Zeisz and Mr Fitzgibbon go for a walk?”
NB: “We did yes.”
JC: “During that walk, was the fact Mr Witham had said he’d shot Lee’s house up the primary topic of conversation?”
NB: “Yes it was, yeah.”
JC: “Was the general atmosphere between you, do you know the word incredulity? All shock and horror, at what had happened?”
NB: “Yes, it was.”
JC: “The fourth event of the day I want to put to you is this. You, Mr Zeisz and Mr Fitzgibbon went to Mr Zeisz’s mother’s home or drove to the location of it anyway?”
NB: “Yes we did, yeah?”
JC: “Mr Zeisz went in to see his mum and spent some time with her?”
NB: “He went in and had something to eat. Me and Ian stayed outside in the car.”
JC: “This wasn’t unusual. Mr Zeisz would sometimes do this and you would sometimes wait for him?”
NB: “Yeah, that’s correct.”
JC: “During the time you were together, the same conversation. The same incredulity, I can’t understand. Shock, horror.”
NB: “That’s what was getting said yes.”
JC: “Mr Zeisz then comes out of his home, you all travel to Pilch Lane.”
NB: “That’s correct.”
JC: “Mr Kershaw was there wasn’t he?”
NB: “Yes he was.”
JC: “Were you all travelling to Pilch Lane to see Mr Kershaw?”
NB: “Yes we was.”
JC: “Same discussion, same atmosphere between you all?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
JC: “Did Kershaw appear equally shocked and appalled at what had gone on?”
NB: “He did.”
JC: “The next venue of the day. Did you all go back to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat?”
NB: “Yes we did.”
JC: “You, Mr Zeisz and Mr Kershaw?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “Same atmosphere, same subjects of discussion.”
NB: “Yes, definitely.”
JC: “Did you again on that occasion, as you were going back to Mr Futzgibbon’s flat, express your concern you might be dragged into it because you’d had arguments with Lee in the past?”
NB: “I expressed that I have had a previous fallout with Lee, yeah.”
JC: “When you got to Mr Fitzgibbon ’s flat, did Mr Fitzgibbon leave you with Mr Zeisz and Mr Kershaw in his flat?”
JC: “Yes that’s correct.”
11:00KEY EVENT
Barry replies: “I couldn’t recall, but yeah.”
JC: “In the flat, were you and Mr Zeisz?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct”
JC: “Was Mr Kershaw there?
NB: “I can’t remember. Me and Mr Zeisz was there, yeah.”
JC: “Did Mr Fitzgibbon say to you both he wanted you to leave the flat?”
NB: “Yes he did, yes. We both left, yeah.”
Mr Cooper returns to the night of August 20.
JC: “You’ve told the jury that you were having difficulty watching the boxing?”
NB: “Yeah, yeah.”
JC: “Would you accept nonetheless, Mr Fitzgibbon was struggling on trying to watch it on the television?”
NB: “We were all struggling. It just kept freezing.”
JC: “I have to come to the issue at Glastonbury. I want to put to you a version of events slightly different to yours. The night of Friday, June 24, in the early hours of June 25. You’ve already told us you went to Glastonbury, you didn’t go to Glastonbury with IanFitzgibbon did you?”
NB: “No I didn’t.”
JC: “Did you know that Mr Fitzgibbon had gone there with his girlfriend Daisy and their friends and family?”
NB: “No I didn't know that.”
JC: “You met with Mr Fitzgibbon when he was with his friends, maybe with your group as well, that night?”
NB: “No, I can’t recall meeting up with him no.”
JC: “Not at all.”
NB: “No.”
JC: “I’m going to suggest this happened at the dance stage. Mr Fitzgibbon was stood by the left side of that stage by some metal fencing.”
NB: “I can’t remember seeing Ian there to be honest.”
JC: “I suggest to you that you approached Mr Fitzgibbon at that point and talked to him?”
NB: “I can’t remember speaking to Ian.”
JC: “When we suggest you went over to him, that was the first time you’d seen him at Glastonbury on that occasion. Does any of this jog your memory?”
NB: “I can’t remember seeing Ian.”
JC: “Ever? At Glastonbury?”
NB: “I can’t remember seeing Ian in the festival no?”
JC: “We suggest you came over to his group and said hello. You can’t remember that?”
NB: “No, I can’t remember seeing ian. I spoke to a lot of people in there.”
JC: “You were at Glastonbury.”
NB: “Yes I was there until Saturday morning yeah?”
JC: “Were you with someone called Kyle. Was Kyle a part of your group?”
NB: “No.”
JC: “What about someone called Connor Ashton. Is he a friend of yours?”
NB: “He’s not a friend on mine no.”
JC: “Was he in your group.”
NB: “No, I can’t remember seeing Connor no.”
JC: “We suggest Kyle and Connor Ashton were with you when you came over to speak to Ian Fitzgibbon?”
NB: “I can’t remember that no.”
JC: “You said have you seen Lee Harrison. did you say that?”
NB: “No I didn’t say that.”
JC: “Or have you seen Saz?”
NB: “No, I didn’t say that.”
JC: “Were you looking for Lee Harrison that night?”
NB: “No I’ve never looked for him in my life. I went to Glastonbury to have a good time not to look at people.”
JC: “Are you saying you can’t recall it or that it never happened.”
NB: “I can remember comments getting made but i can’t remember them being to Ian or anything like that.”
JC: “Might they have been said to Ian?”
NB: “No.”
JC: “We suggest you showed Ian Fitzgibbon a knife that you had in your right hand. Did you?”
NB: “No I didn’t.”
JC: “Were you carrying a knife that night?”
NB: “No I wasn’t.”
JC: “Did you say as you showed Ian Fitzgibbon that knife, or maybe after you’d put it back again, did you say ‘if you see Saz tell him I’m going to stab him up’. Did you say that?”
NB: “No I didn’t say that, no.”
JC: “Did you say anything at all at Glastonbury, in particular on that occasion to Ian Fitzgibbon, that might have given the impression you were going to use a knife on Saz?”
NB: “No. as I said on wednesday about the situation. I’d seen two friends, Connor and Jack. They’ve said there’s a load of people from Huyton down there. I said f*** them, i’ll stab them up. I was drunk and I shouldn’t have said it.”
JC: “You say there’s nothing you did or said in front of Ian Fitzgibbon at Glastonbury that would cause Ian Fitzgibbon to think you were going to cause any harm at all to Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I’m unaware whether he was standing in a crowd of people when I was speaking to certain people. I didn’t say that, no.”
JC: “In fairness to you it is our case that you said it directly to Ian Fitzgibbon. You say categorically no I did not.”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.
JC: “If I suggested to you on that occasion you were out of your head or acting as if you were out of your head would that be an accurate description?”
NB: “I’d say I was definitely drunk.”
JC: “What sort of behaviour were you displaying. Were you loud, shouting aggressive?”
NB: “I couldn’t tell you, I was just drunk watching the music.”
JC: “When you asked Ian Fitzgibbon, we say, if you see Saz tell him i’ll stab him up. He said ok.”
NC: “I wouldn’t tell someone to tell someone I was going to stab them up. You wouldn't give someone the heads up if you were going to do something to them. It just wouldn’t happen.”
JC: “We suggest you walked back to the area you’d come from, from where you’d came. None of this jogs your memory?”
NB: “I can’t recall that, no.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Relationship between Fitzgibbon and Barry
John Cooper, KC, will ask questions of Barry on behalf of Ian Fitzgibbon first.JC: “In terms of how well you knew Ian Fitzgibbon, would you agree your contact only really developed after the Rikki Warnick funeral?”
NB: “Yeah. that’s correct. We were aware of each other, but we grew closer after that.”
JC: “Your knowledge of Ian Fitzgibbon was minimal up until perhaps Mr Warnick’s funeral?”
NB: “Yes that’s right, yeah.”
JC: “After that it wouldn’t be that you and Mr Fitzgibbon, to use the expression, would hang out with each other individually, on a one on one basis?”
NB: “No, I wouldn’t say so. No.”
JC: “On the limited occasions you did see him, it was usually when Mr Zeisz was there.”
NB: “There were maybe a couple of times I seen him when Mr Zeisz wasn’t there, but the majority of the time.”
JC: “Your friendship was really with Mr Zeisz.”
NB: “Yes it was yeah.”
JC: “Mr Fitzgibbon has only ever been to your home once?”
NB: “Erm, yes. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.”
10:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'Witham is a '
Mr Cooper says: “Let me go to the day after these tragic events. On the day after, on the 21st, at round about 11.30, 12.30, did you and Mr Zeisz go round to Mr Fitzgibbon’s home?”Barry says: “Yes we did.”
JC: “Did you say to Mr Fitzgibbon, words to the effects of, ‘you’ll never believe it we’ve been up all night arguing with Witham. Witham came back to Pilch lane in the early hours and said he shot Lee’s house up’.”
NB: “Yeah I can’t remember word for word, but definitely along them lines.”
JC: “Clearly, Mr Fitzgibbon was shocked to hear this?”
NB: “Yes he was, yes.”
JC: “Did you add, when you checked the papers the following morning, it was very clear Ashley Dale had been killed?”
NB: “That’s correct, yes.”
JC: “Did you go on to say everyone that’s been in the flat is gonna get a knock on their door?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
JC: “Meaning, by the police?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “And making it clear by everybody, you were also saying Mr Fitzgibbon. He’d been in the flat as well?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
JC: “A little later that day, did you Mr Zeisz and Mr Fitzgibbon go to Jefferey Crescent?”
NB: “Yes we did.”
JC: “In Mr Zeisz’s car?”
NB: “Yes we did.”
JC: “To get some weed.”
NB: “Yeah, some cannabis resin.”
JC: “During that trip, during the time you were getting that cannabis resin, were you all continuing to say you couldn’t believe what had happened. What Withamhad said he’d done?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
JC: “Forgive the language but were words said such as ‘Witham is a
’?”NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “Did you say you were worried you might be dragged into it because you had a past with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “The third event of the day is when you went to meet Davo, or Mr McCaig. Did you, Davo, Mr Zeisz and Mr Fitzgibbon go for a walk?”
NB: “We did yes.”
JC: “During that walk, was the fact Mr Witham had said he’d shot Lee’s house up the primary topic of conversation?”
NB: “Yes it was, yeah.”
JC: “Was the general atmosphere between you, do you know the word incredulity? All shock and horror, at what had happened?”
NB: “Yes, it was.”
JC: “The fourth event of the day I want to put to you is this. You, Mr Zeisz and Mr Fitzgibbon went to Mr Zeisz’s mother’s home or drove to the location of it anyway?”
NB: “Yes we did, yeah?”
JC: “Mr Zeisz went in to see his mum and spent some time with her?”
NB: “He went in and had something to eat. Me and Ian stayed outside in the car.”
JC: “This wasn’t unusual. Mr Zeisz would sometimes do this and you would sometimes wait for him?”
NB: “Yeah, that’s correct.”
JC: “During the time you were together, the same conversation. The same incredulity, I can’t understand. Shock, horror.”
NB: “That’s what was getting said yes.”
JC: “Mr Zeisz then comes out of his home, you all travel to Pilch Lane.”
NB: “That’s correct.”
JC: “Mr Kershaw was there wasn’t he?”
NB: “Yes he was.”
JC: “Were you all travelling to Pilch Lane to see Mr Kershaw?”
NB: “Yes we was.”
JC: “Same discussion, same atmosphere between you all?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
JC: “Did Kershaw appear equally shocked and appalled at what had gone on?”
NB: “He did.”
JC: “The next venue of the day. Did you all go back to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat?”
NB: “Yes we did.”
JC: “You, Mr Zeisz and Mr Kershaw?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
JC: “Same atmosphere, same subjects of discussion.”
NB: “Yes, definitely.”
JC: “Did you again on that occasion, as you were going back to Mr Futzgibbon’s flat, express your concern you might be dragged into it because you’d had arguments with Lee in the past?”
NB: “I expressed that I have had a previous fallout with Lee, yeah.”
JC: “When you got to Mr Fitzgibbon ’s flat, did Mr Fitzgibbon leave you with Mr Zeisz and Mr Kershaw in his flat?”
JC: “Yes that’s correct.”
11:00KEY EVENT
Barry denies threatening to 'stab up Saz'
Mr Cooper continues: “I want to take to you to August 22. Did Mr Fitzgibbon return to the flat some time that day. Round about 6pm?”Barry replies: “I couldn’t recall, but yeah.”
JC: “In the flat, were you and Mr Zeisz?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct”
JC: “Was Mr Kershaw there?
NB: “I can’t remember. Me and Mr Zeisz was there, yeah.”
JC: “Did Mr Fitzgibbon say to you both he wanted you to leave the flat?”
NB: “Yes he did, yes. We both left, yeah.”
Mr Cooper returns to the night of August 20.
JC: “You’ve told the jury that you were having difficulty watching the boxing?”
NB: “Yeah, yeah.”
JC: “Would you accept nonetheless, Mr Fitzgibbon was struggling on trying to watch it on the television?”
NB: “We were all struggling. It just kept freezing.”
JC: “I have to come to the issue at Glastonbury. I want to put to you a version of events slightly different to yours. The night of Friday, June 24, in the early hours of June 25. You’ve already told us you went to Glastonbury, you didn’t go to Glastonbury with IanFitzgibbon did you?”
NB: “No I didn’t.”
JC: “Did you know that Mr Fitzgibbon had gone there with his girlfriend Daisy and their friends and family?”
NB: “No I didn't know that.”
JC: “You met with Mr Fitzgibbon when he was with his friends, maybe with your group as well, that night?”
NB: “No, I can’t recall meeting up with him no.”
JC: “Not at all.”
NB: “No.”
JC: “I’m going to suggest this happened at the dance stage. Mr Fitzgibbon was stood by the left side of that stage by some metal fencing.”
NB: “I can’t remember seeing Ian there to be honest.”
JC: “I suggest to you that you approached Mr Fitzgibbon at that point and talked to him?”
NB: “I can’t remember speaking to Ian.”
JC: “When we suggest you went over to him, that was the first time you’d seen him at Glastonbury on that occasion. Does any of this jog your memory?”
NB: “I can’t remember seeing Ian.”
JC: “Ever? At Glastonbury?”
NB: “I can’t remember seeing Ian in the festival no?”
JC: “We suggest you came over to his group and said hello. You can’t remember that?”
NB: “No, I can’t remember seeing ian. I spoke to a lot of people in there.”
JC: “You were at Glastonbury.”
NB: “Yes I was there until Saturday morning yeah?”
JC: “Were you with someone called Kyle. Was Kyle a part of your group?”
NB: “No.”
JC: “What about someone called Connor Ashton. Is he a friend of yours?”
NB: “He’s not a friend on mine no.”
JC: “Was he in your group.”
NB: “No, I can’t remember seeing Connor no.”
JC: “We suggest Kyle and Connor Ashton were with you when you came over to speak to Ian Fitzgibbon?”
NB: “I can’t remember that no.”
JC: “You said have you seen Lee Harrison. did you say that?”
NB: “No I didn’t say that.”
JC: “Or have you seen Saz?”
NB: “No, I didn’t say that.”
JC: “Were you looking for Lee Harrison that night?”
NB: “No I’ve never looked for him in my life. I went to Glastonbury to have a good time not to look at people.”
JC: “Are you saying you can’t recall it or that it never happened.”
NB: “I can remember comments getting made but i can’t remember them being to Ian or anything like that.”
JC: “Might they have been said to Ian?”
NB: “No.”
JC: “We suggest you showed Ian Fitzgibbon a knife that you had in your right hand. Did you?”
NB: “No I didn’t.”
JC: “Were you carrying a knife that night?”
NB: “No I wasn’t.”
JC: “Did you say as you showed Ian Fitzgibbon that knife, or maybe after you’d put it back again, did you say ‘if you see Saz tell him I’m going to stab him up’. Did you say that?”
NB: “No I didn’t say that, no.”
JC: “Did you say anything at all at Glastonbury, in particular on that occasion to Ian Fitzgibbon, that might have given the impression you were going to use a knife on Saz?”
NB: “No. as I said on wednesday about the situation. I’d seen two friends, Connor and Jack. They’ve said there’s a load of people from Huyton down there. I said f*** them, i’ll stab them up. I was drunk and I shouldn’t have said it.”
JC: “You say there’s nothing you did or said in front of Ian Fitzgibbon at Glastonbury that would cause Ian Fitzgibbon to think you were going to cause any harm at all to Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I’m unaware whether he was standing in a crowd of people when I was speaking to certain people. I didn’t say that, no.”
JC: “In fairness to you it is our case that you said it directly to Ian Fitzgibbon. You say categorically no I did not.”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.
JC: “If I suggested to you on that occasion you were out of your head or acting as if you were out of your head would that be an accurate description?”
NB: “I’d say I was definitely drunk.”
JC: “What sort of behaviour were you displaying. Were you loud, shouting aggressive?”
NB: “I couldn’t tell you, I was just drunk watching the music.”
JC: “When you asked Ian Fitzgibbon, we say, if you see Saz tell him i’ll stab him up. He said ok.”
NC: “I wouldn’t tell someone to tell someone I was going to stab them up. You wouldn't give someone the heads up if you were going to do something to them. It just wouldn’t happen.”
JC: “We suggest you walked back to the area you’d come from, from where you’d came. None of this jogs your memory?”
NB: “I can’t recall that, no.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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11:04JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Richard Pratt, KC, representing James Witham, rises to ask questions of Barry.
RP: “There are three topics I want to ask you about. The first is the Kyle Line which you told the jury was James Witham’s phone.”
Mr Pratt refers to the set of agreed facts.
RP: “What it says about the kyle Line is Niall Barry and James Witham have both had possession and use of the Kyle Line in order to organise and facility the supply of crack etc. you agreed to that didn’t you?”
NB: “Yeah I agree that i’ve been in of the phone yes.”
RP; “That’s the truth. The agreed fact does not say the Kyle Line belonged to Witham. Have you changed your account?”
NB: “No I haven’t.”
RP; “Have you ever heard of someone calling James Witham, Kyle?”
NB: “Not that i’m aware of.”
RP: “Have you ever been called Kyle?”
NB: “I have yes. Someone has text my phone, Jamie. I think it was someone referring to buying the Audi.”
RP: “Why would this person call you Kyle?”
NB: “I don’t know.”
RP: “The same name you say James Witham uses for the Kyle Line?”
NB: “People just make names up when they’re selling drugs.”
11:12JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Barry says: “Yes that’s correct, I can’t remember who that number is.”
Mr Pratt refers to a draft message recovered from Barry’s phone with a phone number.
RP: “You told the jury that James Witham had asked you to put that detail into your phone. When did he ask you to do that?”
NB: “It was around when the Hyundai was getting bought. We was in 267 Pilch Lane?”
RP: “Why didn’t you say, you’ve got your own phone. Put it in your phone?”
NB: “It wasn’t like that, it was type this back and read it back to me.”
RP; “Why would he be asking you to type it in?”
NB: “I don’t know, he must have been on his own phone. It had no relevance to me.”
RP: “I’m going to suggest James Witham never asked you to do such thing. Did you get this information from David McCaig?”
NB: “Which information?”
RP: “The information in this draft message.”
NB: “David McCaig might have been there at the time, I can’t remember specifically.”
RP: “Is this an example of, if the evidence doesn't suit you, you blame James Witham?”
NB: “No that’s no the case at all.”
Mr Pratt references a “conversation” in which Barry claims Witham reported that “He told you he had acquired a firearm.”
Barry says: “I remember him saying to me someone who owed him money was trying to pass him a gun instead of paying him the money. Whether he took the gun I don’t know.”
RP: “He told you somebody had tried to pass him a gun.”
NB: “Yeah but he was more concerned about getting the money.”
RP: “Did you think he had access to a firearm?”
NB: “No, I was just aware of a conversation. Whether it happened or not, I don’t know. I never asked questions again.”
RP: “Weren’t you interested?”
NB: “It wasn’t my money, so i had no interest in it at all.”
RP: “Do you have any information to suggest James Witham had access to a firearm?”
NB: “I’d heard him speak about one before, whether it happened or not I can’t say.”
RP: “Did you ask him what type of firearm it was?”
NB: “No I didn’t.”
RP: “It’s the prosecution case you supplied the firearm to James Witham. that’s not right is it?”
NB: “No I definitely didn’t.”
RP: “To be clear, It’s no part of James Witham’s case that you did supply him with the firearm? Do you understand that?”
NB: “Yes I understand that.”
RP: “What you have done is in order to help meet the allegation the prosecution made, you have invented a conversation you say took place between you.”
NB: “No I have no, definitely not.”
RP: “You’ve changed the detail of it since Wednesday.”
NB: “No I haven't.”
RP: “No such conversation ever took place?”
NB: “It did yes.”
RP: “You’re not telling the truth.”
NB: “I am telling the truth Mr Pratt, yes.”
Mr Pratt has no further questions.
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'People just make names up when they're selling drugs'
Mr Cooper has no further questions.Richard Pratt, KC, representing James Witham, rises to ask questions of Barry.
RP: “There are three topics I want to ask you about. The first is the Kyle Line which you told the jury was James Witham’s phone.”
Mr Pratt refers to the set of agreed facts.
RP: “What it says about the kyle Line is Niall Barry and James Witham have both had possession and use of the Kyle Line in order to organise and facility the supply of crack etc. you agreed to that didn’t you?”
NB: “Yeah I agree that i’ve been in
of the phone yes.”RP; “That’s the truth. The agreed fact does not say the Kyle Line belonged to Witham. Have you changed your account?”
NB: “No I haven’t.”
RP; “Have you ever heard of someone calling James Witham, Kyle?”
NB: “Not that i’m aware of.”
RP: “Have you ever been called Kyle?”
NB: “I have yes. Someone has text my phone, Jamie. I think it was someone referring to buying the Audi.”
RP: “Why would this person call you Kyle?”
NB: “I don’t know.”
RP: “The same name you say James Witham uses for the Kyle Line?”
NB: “People just make names up when they’re selling drugs.”
11:12JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'When the evidence doesn't suit you, you blame James Witham'
Mr Pratt asks: “You were asked about these two phone calls we see to a number that is unknown to the police. I think you told the jury you didn’t know who that number belonged to?”Barry says: “Yes that’s correct, I can’t remember who that number is.”
Mr Pratt refers to a draft message recovered from Barry’s phone with a phone number.
RP: “You told the jury that James Witham had asked you to put that detail into your phone. When did he ask you to do that?”
NB: “It was around when the Hyundai was getting bought. We was in 267 Pilch Lane?”
RP: “Why didn’t you say, you’ve got your own phone. Put it in your phone?”
NB: “It wasn’t like that, it was type this back and read it back to me.”
RP; “Why would he be asking you to type it in?”
NB: “I don’t know, he must have been on his own phone. It had no relevance to me.”
RP: “I’m going to suggest James Witham never asked you to do such thing. Did you get this information from David McCaig?”
NB: “Which information?”
RP: “The information in this draft message.”
NB: “David McCaig might have been there at the time, I can’t remember specifically.”
RP: “Is this an example of, if the evidence doesn't suit you, you blame James Witham?”
NB: “No that’s no the case at all.”
Mr Pratt references a “conversation” in which Barry claims Witham reported that “He told you he had acquired a firearm.”
Barry says: “I remember him saying to me someone who owed him money was trying to pass him a gun instead of paying him the money. Whether he took the gun I don’t know.”
RP: “He told you somebody had tried to pass him a gun.”
NB: “Yeah but he was more concerned about getting the money.”
RP: “Did you think he had access to a firearm?”
NB: “No, I was just aware of a conversation. Whether it happened or not, I don’t know. I never asked questions again.”
RP: “Weren’t you interested?”
NB: “It wasn’t my money, so i had no interest in it at all.”
RP: “Do you have any information to suggest James Witham had access to a firearm?”
NB: “I’d heard him speak about one before, whether it happened or not I can’t say.”
RP: “Did you ask him what type of firearm it was?”
NB: “No I didn’t.”
RP: “It’s the prosecution case you supplied the firearm to James Witham. that’s not right is it?”
NB: “No I definitely didn’t.”
RP: “To be clear, It’s no part of James Witham’s case that you did supply him with the firearm? Do you understand that?”
NB: “Yes I understand that.”
RP: “What you have done is in order to help meet the allegation the prosecution made, you have invented a conversation you say took place between you.”
NB: “No I have no, definitely not.”
RP: “You’ve changed the detail of it since Wednesday.”
NB: “No I haven't.”
RP: “No such conversation ever took place?”
NB: “It did yes.”
RP: “You’re not telling the truth.”
NB: “I am telling the truth Mr Pratt, yes.”
Mr Pratt has no further questions.
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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11:17KEY EVENT
PG: “There’s an issue I would like your help with. It requires a bit of explanation. On the night of August 20, you were at 267 Pilch Lane weren't you?”
NB: “Yes I was yes.”
PG: “We know from what you’ve agreed and Mr Zeisz told us, you were a person who had a beef with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say beef, I stopped speaking to him. I wouldn't say it was a beef…. I had a fallout.”
PG: “On your own account on July 26, the temperature had been increased because he’d been bad-mouthing you?”
NB: “He said something about me being involved in money going missing.”
PG: “You were also a person who was able to source firearms weren't you?”
NB: “No not at that moment in time, no.”
PG: “You weren’t?”
NB: “No.”
PG: “We can agree you were a person had that fallout and a person who had had the ability to source firearms?”
NB: “Yes.”
PG: “Among the firearms you had been able to source were Skorpion sub-machine guns?”
NB: “Erm, a Skorpion sub-machine gun yeah.”
PG: “We only need it to be one.”
NB: “Years before, yes.”
PG: “That night James Witham was also at the flat?”
NB: “He was at the flat for a period of time yes.”
PG: “There came a time when he left. A couple hours after he left, he went to the home of Lee Harrison and he shot dead Lee Harrison’s partner.”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “He did that with a Skorpion sub-machine gun.”
NB: “From what I’ve seen in the evidence, that’s correct.”
PG: “There seem to be two possibilities. First a man left your company to attack the home of a man you had fallen out with with a type of firearm you had access to. All of that is coincidental.”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “The second possibility is you commissioned the attack in your role as the leader of an organised crime group which had access to firearms and drugs.”
NB: “No that’s not the truth. I’m not the leader of no organised crime group. I had no authority to send anyone to anyone’s house and I didn’t.”
11:22JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Barry says: “Yes I was.”
PG: “Do you agree you were a criminal not in the sense of being a shoplifter, you were involved in serious organised crime?”
NB: “I was heavily involved in drug dealing.”
PG: “You were involved in serious organised crime?”
NB: “In drug dealing, yes.”
PG: “You were committing crime in order to fund your lifestyle weren't you?”
NB: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “You were dealing in drugs, including cocaine,in the kilogram or multiple kilogram amount?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “You were dealing drugs with a value of tens of thousands of pounds.”
NB: “Yes that's correct.”
PG: “On the night of the killing you were looking at vehicles for your partner including a Range Rover which had a value of £50,000.”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You had access to very substantial sums of money?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
PG: “There was no reason why you couldn’t have paid back the money Sean Zeisz says you owed him?”
NB: “It wasn’t like that. I had a good relationship with Sean Zeisz. I explained someone was coming down and only passed me so much. He said no problem. I’ve done that with him before and he’s done it with me before.”
PG: “Mr Zeisz has said you owed him money. He wanted that money back. He was pressing you for it. You said if you come with me tomorrow I should be able to pay you back. That’s his account. Yet on the other hand that night you are thinking of spending £50,000 on a car?”
NB: “No I wasn’t going to spend £50,000 on a car. As a criminal, you can’t go with a bag of money and buy a car. They call the police on the spot, you couldn’t do it.”
PG: “You are owing Mr Zeisz money. You had access to substantial sums of money. I’m asking you to explain why you didn’t pay him?”
NB: “The money owed was from someone out of town. I just weren't mixing the money up. In the end I said I’ll sell this weed, I'll pay you. When this person comes, I'll keep this money.”
11:34JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Barry says: “It did yes.”
PG: “By 2022, you had been a drug dealer for a number of years. How many years?”
NB: “I couldn’t tell you. A good few years.”
PG: “Did you regard yourself as a successful drug dealer?”
NB: “I’d like to think so, I’ve never been arrested with drugs before.”
PG: “You were doing deals valued in the tens of thousands of pounds?”
NB: “Yes that's correct.”
PG: “At one stage you had been friends with Lee Harrison.”
NB: “Yes I had.”
PG: “He had worked for you in your drug dealing operation
NB: “No he never worked for me.”
PG: “We’re going to have a look at what Ashley Dale was saying about this, your relationship with Lee Harrison. you knew Ashley was in a rel with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes i did yes.”
PG: “You knew she was in a relationship with him when the two of you were in busines together?”
NB: “Yes that's correct.”
“You were telling me the tow of your were essentially partners rather than him working for you
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
PG: “These are messages Ashley is exchanging with Sophie on July 3. Sophie and Ashley are talking about the background of animosity between you and Lee Harrison. Ashley is giving her explanation of what happened. This is what Ashley is saying.”
Mr Greaney reads: “Cos Lee never took his side and they was best mates. But Branch had been bumping Lee for ages saying he owed so much when he was putting stuff in, the work. Really he owed less. Lee used to answer all the phones, all the running round. Branch was taking the piss out of Lee and he found it all out off Ian.”
PG: “You have been screwing Lee over. You had been saying he owed you X for drugs you supplied to him, but he owed less because you had been adultering the drugs. Lee had been doing all the answering the phones and running round. You had been taking the piss. Do you agree the position is Lee was doing all the answering of the phones?”
NB: “He may have answered phones but I would have answered phones as well.”
PG: “He was doing all the running round?”
NB: “I don’t agree with that.”
PG: “You were taking the piss, as a put it.”
NB: “No I wasn’t taking the piss no.”
PG: “Ashley was reporting you had been the boss, taking advantage of your subordinate?”
NB: “No, I wasn’t no boss. No.”
PG: “There did come a time there was a fallout between you and Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “We can see what Ashley was saying about this.”
Mr Greaney reads: “Branch is out for Lee isn’t he there been murder again. So my nerves are gone over it all”
“Sophie asks don’t lie, why. Ashley says “Just still over the murder a few years ago when they fell out. Branch is back on his high horse, don’t know where he popped up from. Sophie goes on to add her understanding is that it was all over when you were robbed. If you’re gonna do something, it’s been three years, says Ashley. Sophie says just heard years ago the hillsides robbed him.”
PG: “Through the trial, we’ve heard more about this, learnt more about this. We’ve learned the Hillsiders are an organised criminal gang with access to firearms?”
NB: “I don’t know, if that’s what you say, yes.”
PG: “Well it’s not what I say. You were living in this world at that time. Do you agree the hillsiders were an organised criminal gang?”
NB: “I agree they’re a gang yes.”
PG: “Do you agree They’re involved in criminal activity.”
NB “I do yes.”
PG: “That criminal activity includes the supply of drugs?”
NB: “I don’t know what they do, i don’t speak to them.”
PG: “They stole your drugs.”
NB: “There’s a big difference between stealing them and selling them.”
PG: “When one gang steals drugs from another, why are they stealing them?”
NB: “To make a profit for themselves?”
PG: “To sell them.”
NB: “Yeah.”
PG: “You knew the Hillsiders were involved in crime and that extended to the supply of drugs, didn’t you?”
NB: “Yes.”
PG: “You knew they had access to firearms?”
NB: “I didn't know they had access to firearms. It’s a possibility. But I don’t know from my own knowledge, I don’t speak to these people, so I don’t know if they’re got access to firearms.”
PG: “Did major gangs tend to have access to firearms?”
NB: “Not everyone who sells drugs deals in firearms or associates with firearms.”
PG: “We’ve heard of a man called Jordan Thompson, you had heard of him. And knew his nickname was Dusty?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
PG: “You knew he was a member of the Hillsiders gang?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Did you know he was a significant member of the Hillsiders gang?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say a significant member. The last time I seen him he was only about 16. I wouldn’t know if he was a significant member.”
PG: “Did you know that Jordan Thompson, Dusty, had access to firearms?”
NB: “No I did not.”
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Niall Barry: 'I'm not the leader of no organised crime group'
Now Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting, rises to begin his cross examination of Niall Barry.PG: “There’s an issue I would like your help with. It requires a bit of explanation. On the night of August 20, you were at 267 Pilch Lane weren't you?”
NB: “Yes I was yes.”
PG: “We know from what you’ve agreed and Mr Zeisz told us, you were a person who had a beef with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say beef, I stopped speaking to him. I wouldn't say it was a beef…. I had a fallout.”
PG: “On your own account on July 26, the temperature had been increased because he’d been bad-mouthing you?”
NB: “He said something about me being involved in money going missing.”
PG: “You were also a person who was able to source firearms weren't you?”
NB: “No not at that moment in time, no.”
PG: “You weren’t?”
NB: “No.”
PG: “We can agree you were a person had that fallout and a person who had had the ability to source firearms?”
NB: “Yes.”
PG: “Among the firearms you had been able to source were Skorpion sub-machine guns?”
NB: “Erm, a Skorpion sub-machine gun yeah.”
PG: “We only need it to be one.”
NB: “Years before, yes.”
PG: “That night James Witham was also at the flat?”
NB: “He was at the flat for a period of time yes.”
PG: “There came a time when he left. A couple hours after he left, he went to the home of Lee Harrison and he shot dead Lee Harrison’s partner.”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “He did that with a Skorpion sub-machine gun.”
NB: “From what I’ve seen in the evidence, that’s correct.”
PG: “There seem to be two possibilities. First a man left your company to attack the home of a man you had fallen out with with a type of firearm you had access to. All of that is coincidental.”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “The second possibility is you commissioned the attack in your role as the leader of an organised crime group which had access to firearms and drugs.”
NB: “No that’s not the truth. I’m not the leader of no organised crime group. I had no authority to send anyone to anyone’s house and I didn’t.”
11:22JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'I was heavily involved in drug dealing'
Mr Greaney continues: “We’ll deal first of all with your beef with Lee Harrison. In 2020, by occupation, were you a criminal?”Barry says: “Yes I was.”
PG: “Do you agree you were a criminal not in the sense of being a shoplifter, you were involved in serious organised crime?”
NB: “I was heavily involved in drug dealing.”
PG: “You were involved in serious organised crime?”
NB: “In drug dealing, yes.”
PG: “You were committing crime in order to fund your lifestyle weren't you?”
NB: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “You were dealing in drugs, including cocaine,in the kilogram or multiple kilogram amount?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “You were dealing drugs with a value of tens of thousands of pounds.”
NB: “Yes that's correct.”
PG: “On the night of the killing you were looking at vehicles for your partner including a Range Rover which had a value of £50,000.”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You had access to very substantial sums of money?”
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
PG: “There was no reason why you couldn’t have paid back the money Sean Zeisz says you owed him?”
NB: “It wasn’t like that. I had a good relationship with Sean Zeisz. I explained someone was coming down and only passed me so much. He said no problem. I’ve done that with him before and he’s done it with me before.”
PG: “Mr Zeisz has said you owed him money. He wanted that money back. He was pressing you for it. You said if you come with me tomorrow I should be able to pay you back. That’s his account. Yet on the other hand that night you are thinking of spending £50,000 on a car?”
NB: “No I wasn’t going to spend £50,000 on a car. As a criminal, you can’t go with a bag of money and buy a car. They call the police on the spot, you couldn’t do it.”
PG: “You are owing Mr Zeisz money. You had access to substantial sums of money. I’m asking you to explain why you didn’t pay him?”
NB: “The money owed was from someone out of town. I just weren't mixing the money up. In the end I said I’ll sell this weed, I'll pay you. When this person comes, I'll keep this money.”
11:34JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Barry: 'I didn't know whether the Hillsiders had access to firearms'
Mr Greaney continues: “Your criminal activity included drug dealing.”Barry says: “It did yes.”
PG: “By 2022, you had been a drug dealer for a number of years. How many years?”
NB: “I couldn’t tell you. A good few years.”
PG: “Did you regard yourself as a successful drug dealer?”
NB: “I’d like to think so, I’ve never been arrested with drugs before.”
PG: “You were doing deals valued in the tens of thousands of pounds?”
NB: “Yes that's correct.”
PG: “At one stage you had been friends with Lee Harrison.”
NB: “Yes I had.”
PG: “He had worked for you in your drug dealing operation
NB: “No he never worked for me.”
PG: “We’re going to have a look at what Ashley Dale was saying about this, your relationship with Lee Harrison. you knew Ashley was in a rel with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes i did yes.”
PG: “You knew she was in a relationship with him when the two of you were in busines together?”
NB: “Yes that's correct.”
“You were telling me the tow of your were essentially partners rather than him working for you
NB: “Yes, that’s correct.”
PG: “These are messages Ashley is exchanging with Sophie on July 3. Sophie and Ashley are talking about the background of animosity between you and Lee Harrison. Ashley is giving her explanation of what happened. This is what Ashley is saying.”
Mr Greaney reads: “Cos Lee never took his side and they was best mates. But Branch had been bumping Lee for ages saying he owed so much when he was putting stuff in, the work. Really he owed less. Lee used to answer all the phones, all the running round. Branch was taking the piss out of Lee and he found it all out off Ian.”
PG: “You have been screwing Lee over. You had been saying he owed you X for drugs you supplied to him, but he owed less because you had been adultering the drugs. Lee had been doing all the answering the phones and running round. You had been taking the piss. Do you agree the position is Lee was doing all the answering of the phones?”
NB: “He may have answered phones but I would have answered phones as well.”
PG: “He was doing all the running round?”
NB: “I don’t agree with that.”
PG: “You were taking the piss, as a put it.”
NB: “No I wasn’t taking the piss no.”
PG: “Ashley was reporting you had been the boss, taking advantage of your subordinate?”
NB: “No, I wasn’t no boss. No.”
PG: “There did come a time there was a fallout between you and Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “We can see what Ashley was saying about this.”
Mr Greaney reads: “Branch is out for Lee isn’t he there been murder again. So my nerves are gone over it all”
“Sophie asks don’t lie, why. Ashley says “Just still over the murder a few years ago when they fell out. Branch is back on his high horse, don’t know where he popped up from. Sophie goes on to add her understanding is that it was all over when you were robbed. If you’re gonna do something, it’s been three years, says Ashley. Sophie says just heard years ago the hillsides robbed him.”
PG: “Through the trial, we’ve heard more about this, learnt more about this. We’ve learned the Hillsiders are an organised criminal gang with access to firearms?”
NB: “I don’t know, if that’s what you say, yes.”
PG: “Well it’s not what I say. You were living in this world at that time. Do you agree the hillsiders were an organised criminal gang?”
NB: “I agree they’re a gang yes.”
PG: “Do you agree They’re involved in criminal activity.”
NB “I do yes.”
PG: “That criminal activity includes the supply of drugs?”
NB: “I don’t know what they do, i don’t speak to them.”
PG: “They stole your drugs.”
NB: “There’s a big difference between stealing them and selling them.”
PG: “When one gang steals drugs from another, why are they stealing them?”
NB: “To make a profit for themselves?”
PG: “To sell them.”
NB: “Yeah.”
PG: “You knew the Hillsiders were involved in crime and that extended to the supply of drugs, didn’t you?”
NB: “Yes.”
PG: “You knew they had access to firearms?”
NB: “I didn't know they had access to firearms. It’s a possibility. But I don’t know from my own knowledge, I don’t speak to these people, so I don’t know if they’re got access to firearms.”
PG: “Did major gangs tend to have access to firearms?”
NB: “Not everyone who sells drugs deals in firearms or associates with firearms.”
PG: “We’ve heard of a man called Jordan Thompson, you had heard of him. And knew his nickname was Dusty?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
PG: “You knew he was a member of the Hillsiders gang?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Did you know he was a significant member of the Hillsiders gang?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say a significant member. The last time I seen him he was only about 16. I wouldn’t know if he was a significant member.”
PG: “Did you know that Jordan Thompson, Dusty, had access to firearms?”
NB: “No I did not.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
I feel the prosecutor is definitely winning this round!
PG: “They stole your drugs.”
NB: “There’s a big difference between stealing them and selling them.”
PG: “When one gang steals drugs from another, why are they stealing them?”
NB: “To make a profit for themselves?”
PG: “To sell them.”
NB: “Yeah.”
PG: “They stole your drugs.”
NB: “There’s a big difference between stealing them and selling them.”
PG: “When one gang steals drugs from another, why are they stealing them?”
NB: “To make a profit for themselves?”
PG: “To sell them.”
NB: “Yeah.”
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11:45JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
NB: “Yeah it might have been a bit earlier but around that time yes.”
PG: “You had drugs stored somewhere?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You told us it was cocaine and cannabis?”
NB: “Cocaine and cannabis yeah.”
PG: “It was not your own home. Not your mother’s home. It was somewhere else?”
NB: “It was somewhere else.”
PG: “So you could maintain distance between yourself and your product.”
NB: “It was just where it was.”
PG: “Was that your practise, you would store your drugs somewhere else?”
NB: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Was it your policy to store drugs not at your own premises to keep distance between you?”
NB: “I wouldn’t keep drugs in my own house.”
PG: “Where did you keep your drugs?”
NB: “In a house on Hillside, I can’t recall the address.”
PG: “The name of the person storing them for you.”
NB: “Mark, I can’t remember his second name.”
PG: “Was he someone who worked for you.”
NB: “He was just someone who was on about £200 a week for storing the drugs.”
PG: “It seems he didn’t do a terribly good job. Someone took them from his home. Can you tell us who took your drugs back?”
NB: “I just know it was someone from round there. I just knew it was a certain few people who it could have been. Just people off Hillside.”
He is asked to name them
NB: “I’m not 100 per cent on who it actually was. Just people from Hillside. It can’t say people’s names if I’m not 100 per cent who it was.”
Barry agrees he purchased the drugs for around £30,000
PG: “You were intent upon selling those drugs for a profit?”
NB: “I would have made a profit on them drugs yes.”
Barry says he would buy a kilo of cocaine for £24,000 and sell for £28,000, and would buy a kilo of cannabis for £3,000 and sell for £4,000.
PG: “The loss to you from this was not £30,000, it was somewhere between £35,000 and £40,000?”
NB: “I didn’t get to that did I.”
Mr Greaney says the loss of £30,000 was a “significant matter” for Barry.
NB: “I was angry yeah.”
PG: “In your world, the criminal world, the loss of face can be even more important than the loss of money?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say so, no.”
PG: “In that world, if drugs are stolen from you you can’t complain to the police?”
NB: “No you can't.”
PG: “You can't make a claim for damages.”
NB: “No you can't.”
PG: “Where someone disrespects you and steals your drugs, you need to deal with it in a different way.”
NB: “Yes you do yes.”
PG: “If people discover you’re a soft touch who can be stolen from and won’t react, that’s hardly good for business?”
NB: “No it’s not.”
PG: “There are people who will steal from you as readily as saying hello?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say that but there are people out there who steal drugs.”
PG: “In your world, where you’re at a risk of loss of face, the remedy often means violence?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say so, no.”
PG: “The Hillsiders had stolen from you. Let’s say they kept stealing from you. How would you have managed that situation?”
NB: “They took them once, I cut ties and never spoke to them again.”
PG: “You don’t just say to the Hillsiders, please don’t do that again, I’m going to get cross. Tell us what you have to do?”
NB: “ What I did was, I got in touch with someone and give them a bit of money to get the drugs back. I ended updown six ounces of cocaine and two kilos of cannabis.”
PG: “You’d lost face?”
NB: “I had lost face yeah but i didn’t resort to violence.”
PG: “In the aftermath of that robbery, the Hillsiders were your enemy weren't they?”
NB: “I would say they were my enemy. Not me friends.”
PG: “Lee Harrison had sided with the Hillsiders?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “From that time, he was your enemy. Let's use your phrase. He was also not your friend?”
NB: “No he wasn’t. I thought he would have understood it was wrong. He was in a bit of a catch 22. It was either speak to me or speak to them. His mum lived around that area. I understand why he made that decision.”
PG: “Do you agree from that time Lee Harrison was not your friend?”
NB: “Yeah I cut my ties with him as well yeah.”
PG: “He sided with a group which caused you to lose face.”
NB: “It did yeah. I was earning money at the time. It weren’t a big thing to me.”
PG: “When Ashley speaks of a beef she was correct wasn't she?”
NB: “No.”
PG: “Sean Zeisz is your friend?”
NB: “Yes he’s my friend yes.”
PG: “Your close friend?”
NB: “I’d say we were close?”
PG: “And had been for a considerable period of time?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “He was someone with whom you had a drug dealing relationship?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Given your closeness if someone was bad mouthing you would you have expected Sean Zeisz to speak up for you?”
NB: “I’d speak up for myself.”
PG: “Let’s assume you weren't’ there. Someone was saying to Sean Zeisz, ‘Branch is a whatever, an a***hole?”
NB: “I’d expect him to say no he’s not, same with me if someone said something about him.”
PG: “At the time of Glastonbury, was Sean Zeisz’s partner Olivia McDowell?”
NB: “Yeah I think so, yeah. “
PG: “Did you know Oliva McDowell was friends with Ashley Dale?”
NB: “Yes I did, yes.”
PG: “Lee Harrison’s partner.”
NB: “Yes, I was aware of that. Yes.”
PG: “You had a dispute with Lee, but his partner was Ashley. And Ashley was friendly with Sean Zeisz’s partner Liv. For a period, that kept the peace.”
NB: “No. I wouldn't agree with that, no.”
PG: “All of that changed at Glastonbury, didn't it?”
NB: “No. Whether Sean’s girlfriend was mates with Ashley and Lee. Just because someone’s mates with someone’s girlfriend, that’s not going to stop the feud.”
The court will now take a break, resuming at 12.10pm.
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Robbery of drugs by Hillsiders caused Barry to 'lose face'
Mr Greaney says: “On Tuesday, we learned from Sean Zeisz that in about 2019 you were robbed by the Hilllsiders.”NB: “Yeah it might have been a bit earlier but around that time yes.”
PG: “You had drugs stored somewhere?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You told us it was cocaine and cannabis?”
NB: “Cocaine and cannabis yeah.”
PG: “It was not your own home. Not your mother’s home. It was somewhere else?”
NB: “It was somewhere else.”
PG: “So you could maintain distance between yourself and your product.”
NB: “It was just where it was.”
PG: “Was that your practise, you would store your drugs somewhere else?”
NB: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Was it your policy to store drugs not at your own premises to keep distance between you?”
NB: “I wouldn’t keep drugs in my own house.”
PG: “Where did you keep your drugs?”
NB: “In a house on Hillside, I can’t recall the address.”
PG: “The name of the person storing them for you.”
NB: “Mark, I can’t remember his second name.”
PG: “Was he someone who worked for you.”
NB: “He was just someone who was on about £200 a week for storing the drugs.”
PG: “It seems he didn’t do a terribly good job. Someone took them from his home. Can you tell us who took your drugs back?”
NB: “I just know it was someone from round there. I just knew it was a certain few people who it could have been. Just people off Hillside.”
He is asked to name them
NB: “I’m not 100 per cent on who it actually was. Just people from Hillside. It can’t say people’s names if I’m not 100 per cent who it was.”
Barry agrees he purchased the drugs for around £30,000
PG: “You were intent upon selling those drugs for a profit?”
NB: “I would have made a profit on them drugs yes.”
Barry says he would buy a kilo of cocaine for £24,000 and sell for £28,000, and would buy a kilo of cannabis for £3,000 and sell for £4,000.
PG: “The loss to you from this was not £30,000, it was somewhere between £35,000 and £40,000?”
NB: “I didn’t get to that did I.”
Mr Greaney says the loss of £30,000 was a “significant matter” for Barry.
NB: “I was angry yeah.”
PG: “In your world, the criminal world, the loss of face can be even more important than the loss of money?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say so, no.”
PG: “In that world, if drugs are stolen from you you can’t complain to the police?”
NB: “No you can't.”
PG: “You can't make a claim for damages.”
NB: “No you can't.”
PG: “Where someone disrespects you and steals your drugs, you need to deal with it in a different way.”
NB: “Yes you do yes.”
PG: “If people discover you’re a soft touch who can be stolen from and won’t react, that’s hardly good for business?”
NB: “No it’s not.”
PG: “There are people who will steal from you as readily as saying hello?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say that but there are people out there who steal drugs.”
PG: “In your world, where you’re at a risk of loss of face, the remedy often means violence?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say so, no.”
PG: “The Hillsiders had stolen from you. Let’s say they kept stealing from you. How would you have managed that situation?”
NB: “They took them once, I cut ties and never spoke to them again.”
PG: “You don’t just say to the Hillsiders, please don’t do that again, I’m going to get cross. Tell us what you have to do?”
NB: “ What I did was, I got in touch with someone and give them a bit of money to get the drugs back. I ended updown six ounces of cocaine and two kilos of cannabis.”
PG: “You’d lost face?”
NB: “I had lost face yeah but i didn’t resort to violence.”
PG: “In the aftermath of that robbery, the Hillsiders were your enemy weren't they?”
NB: “I would say they were my enemy. Not me friends.”
PG: “Lee Harrison had sided with the Hillsiders?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “From that time, he was your enemy. Let's use your phrase. He was also not your friend?”
NB: “No he wasn’t. I thought he would have understood it was wrong. He was in a bit of a catch 22. It was either speak to me or speak to them. His mum lived around that area. I understand why he made that decision.”
PG: “Do you agree from that time Lee Harrison was not your friend?”
NB: “Yeah I cut my ties with him as well yeah.”
PG: “He sided with a group which caused you to lose face.”
NB: “It did yeah. I was earning money at the time. It weren’t a big thing to me.”
PG: “When Ashley speaks of a beef she was correct wasn't she?”
NB: “No.”
PG: “Sean Zeisz is your friend?”
NB: “Yes he’s my friend yes.”
PG: “Your close friend?”
NB: “I’d say we were close?”
PG: “And had been for a considerable period of time?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “He was someone with whom you had a drug dealing relationship?”
NB: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Given your closeness if someone was bad mouthing you would you have expected Sean Zeisz to speak up for you?”
NB: “I’d speak up for myself.”
PG: “Let’s assume you weren't’ there. Someone was saying to Sean Zeisz, ‘Branch is a whatever, an a***hole?”
NB: “I’d expect him to say no he’s not, same with me if someone said something about him.”
PG: “At the time of Glastonbury, was Sean Zeisz’s partner Olivia McDowell?”
NB: “Yeah I think so, yeah. “
PG: “Did you know Oliva McDowell was friends with Ashley Dale?”
NB: “Yes I did, yes.”
PG: “Lee Harrison’s partner.”
NB: “Yes, I was aware of that. Yes.”
PG: “You had a dispute with Lee, but his partner was Ashley. And Ashley was friendly with Sean Zeisz’s partner Liv. For a period, that kept the peace.”
NB: “No. I wouldn't agree with that, no.”
PG: “All of that changed at Glastonbury, didn't it?”
NB: “No. Whether Sean’s girlfriend was mates with Ashley and Lee. Just because someone’s mates with someone’s girlfriend, that’s not going to stop the feud.”
The court will now take a break, resuming at 12.10pm.
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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12:24KEY EVENT
PG: “We’re now turning to deal with Glastonbury. I’m going to ask you about your threat to stab Lee Harrison. Whilst at Glastonbury, you didn’t stay in a tent after the first night?”
Barry says: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Instead, you and some others stayed at a pub with rooms. It has been referred to as the Pig and Whistle, but in fact I think it’s called the Pig and Wheel?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “One of those you were with was James Witham. Had you travelled to Glastonbury with James Witham?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Had you travelled in the Audi?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “Were you sharing a room with Witham?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “James Witham worked for you in your drug dealing enterprise didn't he?”
NB: “No that’s not correct.”
PG: “He was someone you could rely upon to do your bidding?”
NB: “No, that’s not correct.”
PG: “Luggage was taken to Glastonbury by you and Mr Witham?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “On June 25, we see you with a bag.”
The court is played police bodycam footage of the moment Witham and Peers are stopped by Avon and Somerset Police on June 25, on their way to the festival site in a taxi.
PG: “We can see you there with a bag can’t we?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
Further footage, from later in the morning is played now.
PG: “We can see there the blue bag you’d been seen with a little earlier?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “There was a knife in there. We can see a black backpack on the back seat of that taxi. The backpack was the bag of James Witham?”
NB: “I can’t remember.”
PG: “Or was it yours?”
NB: “It must have been James’s.”
PG: “Two bags, one James and one yours.”
NB: “That bag wasn't mine. I had some belongings in that bag.”
PG: “We’ve seen you carrying that bag on June 25. Then, later, on August 24, you had that same bag at Formby Hall hotel.”
NB: “Yes I did, yes.”
PG: “You had it on the 25th of june. You had it on the 24th of August. That was your holdall wasn't it?”
NB: “No it wasn't, no.”
PG: “On June 25, when the police took that bag from the taxi and examined it, within it was your passport.”
NB: “I agree that yes.”
PG: “Some of your clothing?”
NB: “Some clothing of mine yeah.”
PG: “There was a knife in the bag as well.”
NB: “I wasn’t aware there was a knife in the bag.”
PG: “It was your knife.”
NB: “No it wasn;t my knife.”
PG: “It was probably the knife you threatened to stab Lee Harrison with.”
NB: “I wouldn’t pull a knife out.”
PG: “Did James Witham say it was his?”
NB: “Yes he did.”
PG: “That was an example of Mr Witham aking the blame for something that was your responsibility because he is or was you lackey?”
NB: “I’m sorry I don’t know what that means.”
PG: “Do you know what a joey is in your world?”
NB: “Yes..Someone who does things for you.”
PG: “Let me substitute the word lackey for joey. He was taking the blame because he was your joey.”
NB: “No that’s not right at all. Mr Witham’s a 40 year old man. He’s not my joey. He doesn’t work for me or anything like that. There’s no way I could make him take the blame for a knife that wasn't his. No way.”
12:29JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
NB: “No, it wasn’t my car”
PG: “On July 18, you were offering to sell that car to Sean Zeisz weren't you?”
NB: “That's correct.”
PG: “You were offering to sell that car for him for the simple reason it was your car.”
NB: “No that’s not correct. I haven't got a licence. I’ve never drove. I was trying to sell that car to make a profit on it.”
PG: “On July 27, you asked Paul Jordan to arrange the insurance for it.”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “Was Paul Jordan someone you knew quite well.”
NB: “No.”
PG: “How had you come to know he would insure cars maintaining they belonged to him when they belonged to criminals?”
NB: “I seen him months before, he explained he can insure cars and get it half price. I don’t know how he does it. He can organise insurance, hotels. He can get you it for a cheaper price.”
PG: “The reason you're trying to sell it, the reason you’re trying to insure it is because you controlled that car?”
NB: “I didn’t control it. I was just asked to get on to get the car insured. I think it was sitting on a road. It can get took off the street for no insurance.”
PG: “You weren't Mr Witham’s joey or personal assistant were you?”
NB: “I wouldn't say so no.”
PG: “What meant that you were doing this?”
NB: “I don’t think he was around by ours. He asked me to drop 100 pounds off.”
PG: “How had he asked you to acquire the insurance?”
NB: “I must have spoke to him over the phone.”
Mr Greaney says: “I could stand here all day and say it’s your car and you would stand here and say it isn’t.”
NB: “I don’t drive and I haven’t got a licence. I wouldn’t spend big money on cars.”
PG: “You don’t need to have a licence to own a car do you?”
NB: “You don’t no.”
PG: “You did need access to cars for drug dealing?”
NB: “I got lifts off a lot of different people.”
12:37JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
He says on June 29, a voice note from Ashley Dale is sent to Olivia McDowell.
PG: “This is very shortly after everyone has returned from Galstonbury”
Mr Greaney reads a transcript of the voice note. “He still speaks to Branch. I dunno Liv, it’s a proper hard one. You are proper stuck in the middle. You’ve been there for Branch. I know Branch has been saying madness about Lee.”
PG: “Do you agree you had been saying madness about Lee?”
NB: “No, no. he’s never been a topic of conversation of mine. I stopped speaking to him and that was it.”
PG: “On the weekend when they’re ‘in the same fezzy’, she’s saying you, Branch, ‘where’s Saz I’m going to stab him up to your Ian’. On July 3 in messages with Sophie, Ashley added in a further detail. A week or so after their return from Glastonbury, Ashley said ‘Branch is back on his high horse, dunno where he’s popped back up from. He was in Glasto. pulled a big knife out to Ian Fitz and said where’s Saz he’s getting stabbed up.’ Do you agree what Ashley was reporting was you had had a knife? That’s what she was saying?”
NB: “That’s what she was saying.”
PG: “She was saying you pulled it out and you were going to stab up Saz, use the knife to stab Lee Harrison?”
NB: “That’s what she says yeah.”
PG: “That’s true.”
NB: “No, that’s not true no. I didn’t pull a knife and I didn’t specifically say Lee Harrison.”
PG: “You said you made a drunken general threat to stab up Hillsiders as a group?”
NB: “Yeah.”
PG: “I think you told us you don't drink.”
NB: “I said I drink very rarely. That’s exactly what I said.”
PG: “You were drinking at Glastonbury?”
NB: “Yeah, it’s a very rare occasion isn’t it.”
PG: “On your account, even if it was a threat generally, it was a threat to a group that inc Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes it was, yeah.”
PG: “The truth of the matter is that you made a direct threat to stab Lee Harrison having asked if Ian Fitzgibbon knew where he was?”
NB: “No that’s not correct.”
PG: “You did that and said that because in summer last year you hated Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I had more of a problem with the people who robbed the drugs not Lee Harrison. if i was going to threaten anyone out of that situation, it wouldn’t be Lee Harrison.”
PG: “It seems Ian Fitzgibbon agrees that you actually produced a knife. Can you think of anything you did that could have caused him to think that?”
NB: “I didn’t produce a knife. I made drunken comments I shouldn’t have made. I didnt’ say specifically I was going to stab Lee Harrison. He might have been there, he’s took his conclusion from that.”
PG: “If Ian Fitzgibbon is going to say that you did make a direct threat to Lee Harrison, can you think of anything you did that could have caused him to misunderstand where your threat was directed?”
NB: “I did threaten to stab Hillsiders that day. You could assume I had a knife.”
PG: “There is a world of difference between someone producing a knife and someone not having a knife and making a general threat. There’s a big difference, isn’t there?”
NB: “Yes there is, yeah.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Barry: 'James Witham was not my Joey'
Mr Greaney rises to continue his cross examination.PG: “We’re now turning to deal with Glastonbury. I’m going to ask you about your threat to stab Lee Harrison. Whilst at Glastonbury, you didn’t stay in a tent after the first night?”
Barry says: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Instead, you and some others stayed at a pub with rooms. It has been referred to as the Pig and Whistle, but in fact I think it’s called the Pig and Wheel?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “One of those you were with was James Witham. Had you travelled to Glastonbury with James Witham?”
NB: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Had you travelled in the Audi?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “Were you sharing a room with Witham?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “James Witham worked for you in your drug dealing enterprise didn't he?”
NB: “No that’s not correct.”
PG: “He was someone you could rely upon to do your bidding?”
NB: “No, that’s not correct.”
PG: “Luggage was taken to Glastonbury by you and Mr Witham?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “On June 25, we see you with a bag.”
The court is played police bodycam footage of the moment Witham and Peers are stopped by Avon and Somerset Police on June 25, on their way to the festival site in a taxi.
PG: “We can see you there with a bag can’t we?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
Further footage, from later in the morning is played now.
PG: “We can see there the blue bag you’d been seen with a little earlier?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “There was a knife in there. We can see a black backpack on the back seat of that taxi. The backpack was the bag of James Witham?”
NB: “I can’t remember.”
PG: “Or was it yours?”
NB: “It must have been James’s.”
PG: “Two bags, one James and one yours.”
NB: “That bag wasn't mine. I had some belongings in that bag.”
PG: “We’ve seen you carrying that bag on June 25. Then, later, on August 24, you had that same bag at Formby Hall hotel.”
NB: “Yes I did, yes.”
PG: “You had it on the 25th of june. You had it on the 24th of August. That was your holdall wasn't it?”
NB: “No it wasn't, no.”
PG: “On June 25, when the police took that bag from the taxi and examined it, within it was your passport.”
NB: “I agree that yes.”
PG: “Some of your clothing?”
NB: “Some clothing of mine yeah.”
PG: “There was a knife in the bag as well.”
NB: “I wasn’t aware there was a knife in the bag.”
PG: “It was your knife.”
NB: “No it wasn;t my knife.”
PG: “It was probably the knife you threatened to stab Lee Harrison with.”
NB: “I wouldn’t pull a knife out.”
PG: “Did James Witham say it was his?”
NB: “Yes he did.”
PG: “That was an example of Mr Witham aking the blame for something that was your responsibility because he is or was you lackey?”
NB: “I’m sorry I don’t know what that means.”
PG: “Do you know what a joey is in your world?”
NB: “Yes..Someone who does things for you.”
PG: “Let me substitute the word lackey for joey. He was taking the blame because he was your joey.”
NB: “No that’s not right at all. Mr Witham’s a 40 year old man. He’s not my joey. He doesn’t work for me or anything like that. There’s no way I could make him take the blame for a knife that wasn't his. No way.”
12:29JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Barry denies 'controlling Audi'
Mr Greaney suggests Barry “controlled” the Audi he and Witham travelled down to Glastonbury in.NB: “No, it wasn’t my car”
PG: “On July 18, you were offering to sell that car to Sean Zeisz weren't you?”
NB: “That's correct.”
PG: “You were offering to sell that car for him for the simple reason it was your car.”
NB: “No that’s not correct. I haven't got a licence. I’ve never drove. I was trying to sell that car to make a profit on it.”
PG: “On July 27, you asked Paul Jordan to arrange the insurance for it.”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “Was Paul Jordan someone you knew quite well.”
NB: “No.”
PG: “How had you come to know he would insure cars maintaining they belonged to him when they belonged to criminals?”
NB: “I seen him months before, he explained he can insure cars and get it half price. I don’t know how he does it. He can organise insurance, hotels. He can get you it for a cheaper price.”
PG: “The reason you're trying to sell it, the reason you’re trying to insure it is because you controlled that car?”
NB: “I didn’t control it. I was just asked to get on to get the car insured. I think it was sitting on a road. It can get took off the street for no insurance.”
PG: “You weren't Mr Witham’s joey or personal assistant were you?”
NB: “I wouldn't say so no.”
PG: “What meant that you were doing this?”
NB: “I don’t think he was around by ours. He asked me to drop 100 pounds off.”
PG: “How had he asked you to acquire the insurance?”
NB: “I must have spoke to him over the phone.”
Mr Greaney says: “I could stand here all day and say it’s your car and you would stand here and say it isn’t.”
NB: “I don’t drive and I haven’t got a licence. I wouldn’t spend big money on cars.”
PG: “You don’t need to have a licence to own a car do you?”
NB: “You don’t no.”
PG: “You did need access to cars for drug dealing?”
NB: “I got lifts off a lot of different people.”
12:37JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'I made drunken comments I shouldn't have made'
Mr Greaney says: “Let’s return to Glastonbury.”He says on June 29, a voice note from Ashley Dale is sent to Olivia McDowell.
PG: “This is very shortly after everyone has returned from Galstonbury”
Mr Greaney reads a transcript of the voice note. “He still speaks to Branch. I dunno Liv, it’s a proper hard one. You are proper stuck in the middle. You’ve been there for Branch. I know Branch has been saying madness about Lee.”
PG: “Do you agree you had been saying madness about Lee?”
NB: “No, no. he’s never been a topic of conversation of mine. I stopped speaking to him and that was it.”
PG: “On the weekend when they’re ‘in the same fezzy’, she’s saying you, Branch, ‘where’s Saz I’m going to stab him up to your Ian’. On July 3 in messages with Sophie, Ashley added in a further detail. A week or so after their return from Glastonbury, Ashley said ‘Branch is back on his high horse, dunno where he’s popped back up from. He was in Glasto. pulled a big knife out to Ian Fitz and said where’s Saz he’s getting stabbed up.’ Do you agree what Ashley was reporting was you had had a knife? That’s what she was saying?”
NB: “That’s what she was saying.”
PG: “She was saying you pulled it out and you were going to stab up Saz, use the knife to stab Lee Harrison?”
NB: “That’s what she says yeah.”
PG: “That’s true.”
NB: “No, that’s not true no. I didn’t pull a knife and I didn’t specifically say Lee Harrison.”
PG: “You said you made a drunken general threat to stab up Hillsiders as a group?”
NB: “Yeah.”
PG: “I think you told us you don't drink.”
NB: “I said I drink very rarely. That’s exactly what I said.”
PG: “You were drinking at Glastonbury?”
NB: “Yeah, it’s a very rare occasion isn’t it.”
PG: “On your account, even if it was a threat generally, it was a threat to a group that inc Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Yes it was, yeah.”
PG: “The truth of the matter is that you made a direct threat to stab Lee Harrison having asked if Ian Fitzgibbon knew where he was?”
NB: “No that’s not correct.”
PG: “You did that and said that because in summer last year you hated Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I had more of a problem with the people who robbed the drugs not Lee Harrison. if i was going to threaten anyone out of that situation, it wouldn’t be Lee Harrison.”
PG: “It seems Ian Fitzgibbon agrees that you actually produced a knife. Can you think of anything you did that could have caused him to think that?”
NB: “I didn’t produce a knife. I made drunken comments I shouldn’t have made. I didnt’ say specifically I was going to stab Lee Harrison. He might have been there, he’s took his conclusion from that.”
PG: “If Ian Fitzgibbon is going to say that you did make a direct threat to Lee Harrison, can you think of anything you did that could have caused him to misunderstand where your threat was directed?”
NB: “I did threaten to stab Hillsiders that day. You could assume I had a knife.”
PG: “There is a world of difference between someone producing a knife and someone not having a knife and making a general threat. There’s a big difference, isn’t there?”
NB: “Yes there is, yeah.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2015
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- 8,843
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- 44,051
12:44JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
NB: “Only after the festival.”
PG: “Would you agree that brought an uneasy peace to an end, between you and Lee Harrison”
NB: “No I don’t.”
PG: “You were on a pure rampage?”
NB: “There was a lot of things that said I was on a rampage and had heavy beef. I never laid a finger on Lee Harrison. It’s never happened. I cut ties with these people and that was the end.”
PG: “There are a number of themes focused on you. There was heavy beef between you and Lee Harrison.”
NB: “That’s what it says. I definitely wouldn't say I had heavy beef with Lee Harrison.”
PG: “You were on a rampage.”
NB: “I wasn’t in a rampage, definitely not. I seen him in the funeral. I walked past him. That’s not heavy beef, that’s not a rampage.”
PG: “Was Rikki a friend of yours?”
NB: “He was yeah. I’d class him as a close friend yeah.”
PG: “How did you know him?”
NB: “Just growing up in the same type of area.”
PG: “When he took his life did that hit you hard?”
NB: “It did yeah, I wouldn’t want any of my friends to commit suicide.”
PG: “Sean Zeisz believed Dusty was responsible for bullying Rikki into taking his own life. Did you believe Dusty was responsible?”
NB: “That was a rumour that was going round at the time, yeah.”
PG: “Dusty was a Hillsider?”
NB: “Yes, yeah. That’s correct.”
PG: “Lee Harrison was associated with the Hillsiders?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “The rampage you were on was turbocharged by the death of Rikki in circumstances in which it was thought a Hillsider was responsible.”
NB: “No that’s not right. If that was the case I would have had trouble or arguments with Dusty wouldn’t I.”
PG: “The reality is, the temperature was high and it just kept rising.”
NB: “No that’s not the case.”
PG: “Uou made threats to come to 40 Leinster Road and harm Lee Harrison didn’t you?”
NB: “I've never in my life threatened to go to 40 Leinster Road. I have threatened him, I told him I’ll punch your head in. I’ve never threatened to go to his mum’s house or his girlfriend’s house, never in my life.”
PG: “You spoke about threatening to punch him, but you knew the Hillsiders with whom Lee Harrison associated had access to firearms?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say I knew. I don't know what people are up to. I haven’t spoken to these people for going on four years.”
PG: “You knew Lee Harrison had the backing of the Hillsiders?”
NB: “I knew he spoke to them, hung around with them.”
PG: “Going to Hillside to confront and assault Lee Harrison with just your fists would have involved a very considerable risk wouldn’t it?”
NB: “I wouldn't have went to Hillside to assault Lee Harrison, only my name got mentioned with something.”
PG: “The reality is any attack upon Lee Harrison was necessarily going to involve the use of firearm?”
NB: “I wouldn't need a firearm to have any violence towards Lee Harrison.”
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'The temperature kept on rising'
Mr Greaney continues: “Did you become aware the relationship of Sean Zeisz and Olivia McDowell had ended.”NB: “Only after the festival.”
PG: “Would you agree that brought an uneasy peace to an end, between you and Lee Harrison”
NB: “No I don’t.”
PG: “You were on a pure rampage?”
NB: “There was a lot of things that said I was on a rampage and had heavy beef. I never laid a finger on Lee Harrison. It’s never happened. I cut ties with these people and that was the end.”
PG: “There are a number of themes focused on you. There was heavy beef between you and Lee Harrison.”
NB: “That’s what it says. I definitely wouldn't say I had heavy beef with Lee Harrison.”
PG: “You were on a rampage.”
NB: “I wasn’t in a rampage, definitely not. I seen him in the funeral. I walked past him. That’s not heavy beef, that’s not a rampage.”
PG: “Was Rikki a friend of yours?”
NB: “He was yeah. I’d class him as a close friend yeah.”
PG: “How did you know him?”
NB: “Just growing up in the same type of area.”
PG: “When he took his life did that hit you hard?”
NB: “It did yeah, I wouldn’t want any of my friends to commit suicide.”
PG: “Sean Zeisz believed Dusty was responsible for bullying Rikki into taking his own life. Did you believe Dusty was responsible?”
NB: “That was a rumour that was going round at the time, yeah.”
PG: “Dusty was a Hillsider?”
NB: “Yes, yeah. That’s correct.”
PG: “Lee Harrison was associated with the Hillsiders?”
NB: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “The rampage you were on was turbocharged by the death of Rikki in circumstances in which it was thought a Hillsider was responsible.”
NB: “No that’s not right. If that was the case I would have had trouble or arguments with Dusty wouldn’t I.”
PG: “The reality is, the temperature was high and it just kept rising.”
NB: “No that’s not the case.”
PG: “Uou made threats to come to 40 Leinster Road and harm Lee Harrison didn’t you?”
NB: “I've never in my life threatened to go to 40 Leinster Road. I have threatened him, I told him I’ll punch your head in. I’ve never threatened to go to his mum’s house or his girlfriend’s house, never in my life.”
PG: “You spoke about threatening to punch him, but you knew the Hillsiders with whom Lee Harrison associated had access to firearms?”
NB: “I wouldn’t say I knew. I don't know what people are up to. I haven’t spoken to these people for going on four years.”
PG: “You knew Lee Harrison had the backing of the Hillsiders?”
NB: “I knew he spoke to them, hung around with them.”
PG: “Going to Hillside to confront and assault Lee Harrison with just your fists would have involved a very considerable risk wouldn’t it?”
NB: “I wouldn't have went to Hillside to assault Lee Harrison, only my name got mentioned with something.”
PG: “The reality is any attack upon Lee Harrison was necessarily going to involve the use of firearm?”
NB: “I wouldn't need a firearm to have any violence towards Lee Harrison.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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