UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #18

[Woodburnbay]

They know more than they are a vocalising and this can be seen by their eyes

 

[leuraman]

I'm not joining in the character assassination of Claudia's friends, everyone is trying too hard to interpret the smallest thing. A friend has disappeared, probably murdered, they would be both terrified and grieving and a whole lot more emotions, give them a break. Still think this was a stranger killing, not Christopher Halliwell as I seem to remember reading he was in hospital at the time of Claudia's disappearance with mental health problems so can we move on from that. I have given you a perfectly plausible POI, maybe it was an accidental killing, but an early morning incident is my favourite scenario and I think all the CCTV analysis is just red herrings swimming by.

 

[Woodburnbay]

I agree Claudia may have met briefly before or known the killer/s - I just don't think her best friends had anything to do with it. It is still possible they lie wake at night worrying something they did or said led a killer to Claudia. It still wouldn't be their fault. I think anyone could have said something - at Claudia's work, in the pub, or Claudia herself, if she was often on the phone. Who knows if someone wasn't listening to Claudia while she was on the phone to her parents? It's a terrifying thought but someone might have gauged her comings and goings by what she said and then just waited - as we saw with Alleyman. But again, we haven't seen really what happened at the front of Claudia's house. It remains a horrible knot to unpick - and I'd tend to agree with police that someone is holding something back. I just wouldn't blame her friends. They seem kind and involved in her life - not her death.

Her friends know much more about this than they are saying. Police also believe that it is someone who is part of the circle of .

I'm not joining in the character assassination of Claudia's friends, everyone is trying too hard to interpret the smallest thing. A friend has disappeared, probably murdered, they would be both terrified and grieving and a whole lot more emotions, give them a break. Still think this was a stranger killing, not Christopher Halliwell as I seem to remember reading he was in hospital at the time of Claudia's disappearance with mental health problems so can we move on from that. I have given you a perfectly plausible POI, maybe it was an accidental killing, but an early morning incident is my favourite scenario and I think all the CCTV analysis is just red herrings swimming by.

The police have been throughout very fixed upon alley man and things happening either in or the vicinity of her house.
The period that passed between her being silent was extensive for someone who was a prolific tester.
her avoidance of the local pub for such a period is also a clue.

There was a falling out amongst friends, she kept her distance and then she went missing.

All of this, along with the "No Comment" from the arrested POIs point in one direction only.

They know but won't say, It doesn't mean they did to but is does mean that they know who did it and for JK to live with one of POIs for so long after CL going missing and him "No commenting" to her is highly improbable.

 

[Tri-Lambda delta]

YOU will find this VERY INTERESTING...as two faces appear in the BUS CCTV footage.

 

[An_Owl]

I'm not joining in the character assassination of Claudia's friends, everyone is trying too hard to interpret the smallest thing. A friend has disappeared, probably murdered, they would be both terrified and grieving and a whole lot more emotions, give them a break. Still think this was a stranger killing, not Christopher Halliwell as I seem to remember reading he was in hospital at the time of Claudia's disappearance with mental health problems so can we move on from that. I have given you a perfectly plausible POI, maybe it was an accidental killing, but an early morning incident is my favourite scenario and I think all the CCTV analysis is just red herrings swimming by.

I feel that the issue with a stranger abduction/killing is that there would likely be evidence of her heading toward work in the early morning (E.g. from the Melrosegate CCTV, which was actively recording that morning) - and yet there has never been any evidence released publicly to confirm that she was seen or detected walking to work along the only plausible route that she would have used. We have never seen any CCTV images from Melrosegate of Claudia Lawrence around the time she would have been expected to pass it in her way to work, though images of others in the area at that time *were* released. So the cameras were clearly working.

Presuming that such footage of Claudia walking the route isn’t simply being withheld by police - and if this was a random incident then I struggle to understand why such images would be withheld - then this must mean that either:

1. The stranger incident occurred in the short distance between Claudia’s home and the Melrosegate CCTV camera.

2. She was driven past the Melrosegate site by someone giving her a lift, and who picked her up prior to the Melrosegate CCTV camera. We know that she sometimes organised to be picked up by a couple of different colleagues from time to time, and I feel it unlikely that she would simply get into a stranger’s car on a “fancy a lift to work” premise. If she was running late - which she would know by 5.20 - then she could simply contact one or other colleague who lived fairly close by and who would still be at home until about 5.30.

 

[Popejohn3]

With respect- what questions did you ask them?
“They always answered my few questions with an other question!” How did they look to you when you spoke to them? Were they together or separate interviews?

Oh oh let’s not get carried away !just exchanged a few words on messenger I never met them
I was hoping to let them know my story .

 

[Raffy]

Her friends know much more about this than they are saying. Police also believe that it is someone who is part of the circle of .

The police have been throughout very fixed upon alley man and things happening either in or the vicinity of her house.
The period that passed between her being silent was extensive for someone who was a prolific tester.
her avoidance of the local pub for such a period is also a clue.

There was a falling out amongst friends, she kept her distance and then she went missing.

All of this, along with the "No Comment" from the arrested POIs point in one direction only.

They know but won't say, It doesn't mean they did to but is does mean that they know who did it and for JK to live with one of POIs for so long after CL going missing and him "No commenting" to her is highly improbable.

I think the police know who commited the crime, they're just looking for evidence now not people.

 

[Popejohn3]

I feel that the issue with a stranger abduction/killing is that there would likely be evidence of her heading toward work in the early morning (E.g. from the Melrosegate CCTV, which was actively recording that morning) - and yet there has never been any evidence released publicly to confirm that she was seen or detected walking to work along the only plausible route that she would have used. We have never seen any CCTV images from Melrosegate of Claudia Lawrence around the time she would have been expected to pass it in her way to work, though images of others in the area at that time *were* released. So the cameras were clearly working.

Presuming that such footage of Claudia walking the route isn’t simply being withheld by police - and if this was a random incident then I struggle to understand why such images would be withheld - then this must mean that either:

1. The stranger incident occurred in the short distance between Claudia’s home and the Melrosegate CCTV camera.

2. She was driven past the Melrosegate site by someone giving her a lift, and who picked her up prior to the Melrosegate CCTV camera. We know that she sometimes organised to be picked up by a couple of different colleagues from time to time, and I feel it unlikely that she would simply get into a stranger’s car on a “fancy a lift to work” premise. If she was running late - which she would know by 5.20 - then she could simply contact one or other colleague who lived fairly close by and who would still be at home until about 5.30.

Nothing is surprising in this investigation !
We were shown and asked to identify Allywayman SIX years later fhs

 

[Popejohn3]

I think the police know who commited the crime, they're just looking for evidence now not people.

Yes and a body has to be the answer imo

 

[Blonderabbit]

I'm not joining in the character assassination of Claudia's friends, everyone is trying too hard to interpret the smallest thing. A friend has disappeared, probably murdered, they would be both terrified and grieving and a whole lot more emotions, give them a break. Still think this was a stranger killing, not Christopher Halliwell as I seem to remember reading he was in hospital at the time of Claudia's disappearance with mental health problems so can we move on from that. I have given you a perfectly plausible POI, maybe it was an accidental killing, but an early morning incident is my favourite scenario and I think all the CCTV analysis is just red herrings swimming by.

With respect I’m sure you wouldn’t have said reflecting on Holly Wells and Jessica Chspman murders and said give Maxine Carr a break? As far as I’m concerned I’m just evaluating the evidence - I don’t know either personally - and my remarks are not personal or attacking their characters. I’m only interested in the truth - just to be clear.

 

[susie sixpence]

Yes and a body has to be the answer imo

Or her rucksack or it's contents, specifically the phone.

 

[leuraman]

With respect I’m sure you wouldn’t have said reflecting on Holly Wells and Jessica Chspman murders and said give Maxine Carr a break? As far as I’m concerned I’m just evaluating the evidence - I don’t know either personally - and my remarks are not personal or attacking their characters. I’m only interested in the truth - just to be clear.

Agree, good point, I just think the speculation can get a bit out of hand sometimes.

 

[Popejohn3]

Or her rucksack or it's contents, specifically the phone.

Yes who’s got them ?

 

[Tri-Lambda delta]

Agree, good point, I just think the speculation can get a bit out of hand sometimes.

With respect I’m sure you wouldn’t have said reflecting on Holly Wells and Jessica Chspman murders and said give Maxine Carr a break? As far as I’m concerned I’m just evaluating the evidence - I don’t know either personally - and my remarks are not personal or attacking their characters. I’m only interested in the truth - just to be clear.

To give you an update on my PREVIOUS HISTORY: (now that you've mentioned the above HW and JC.
(i) I waltzed into a Police Station with a drawing of the location where Holly and Jessica were found.
(ii) I waltzed into a Police Station and drew the location of Paul Dyson's girlfriend, the Valentine's Day killer. And I asked them to reinterview him and said the reasons why.
(iii) I showed my reasons for saying Claudia was initially buried in the Horwell Scrapyard.
But resistance to that came from a proposed Pavlou Casino construction (whose deal fell through) and then the University Campus development deal... which involved another suspect and very wealthy property developer. A deal that happened.
(iv) And again... I am now finding myself showing an Audi A4 outside Claudia's house on the night of the potential crime... and an Audi A4 parked at the open gates of the Horwell Scrapyard.

NOTE: Lee HORWELL and Claudia LAWRENCE affair.

NOTE: Casino deal between HORWELL BROS and PAVLOU BROS £8m casino plan for York eyesore

NOTE: George Pavlou (Vudu Lounge owner) had it open till 5am in YORK and was caught sexually touching...April 11th 2009 which is only the next month after Claudia Lawrence's disappearance! George Pavlou, of the Vudu Lounge, York, in 'sexual touching' court shame Do the Vudu Lounge's hours and the time of Claudia's secret date/disappearance sound familiar?

UPDATE: Lee Horwell's brother 'Neil Horwell' died age 56 Nov 14, 2008 abroad Algarve, Portugal. (Of a heart attack as I recall.) NEIL HORWELL

 

[poirotoupierrot]

I think the police know who commited the crime, they're just looking for evidence now not people.

I think they have a hunch based on some evidence and psychological profiling. If they had evidence they'd be able to prosecute. If they don't know what happened,how it was done or where Claudia is it's a no hoper. If Chris Halliwell is not feasible and if he was inside a psychiatric unit or prison at the time, his recent cases show you can be prosecuted for murders without full evidence. He led police to the bodies of his victims, keeps trophies of clothing - I even suspected him of the Lindsay RImer murder as he was the right age, knew canals and had the right work history and had killed by strangling in other cases. I agree it's too easy to pin lots of crimes on one person and that was my initial thought, but the attacker in the city recently doesn't fit the profile as well as he seemed to attack, rob and rape but not kill. It's a proven transition in offenders. As with Wayne Couzens, we know they start with one thing and escalate through more and more serious crimes from there. Each case is different, sure, but each perpetrator has diffrent things he does, however gruesome it is to consider. The lift theory from Owl is a possibility. Someone Claudia thought she could trust, but who then turns out to be a kidnapper? That there is no recognisable footage of Claudia in the morning has always made me lean towards her losing her life the night before, or else being taken somewhere after her phone calls to family. Or, more likely, someone known or not could have confirmed she was in by overhearing something in the pub? Even an opportunist who wasn't known to her. A message via text like 'I'm going to bed, see you tomorrow night" would confirm not only to friends - if they were in the pub, and someone overheard a friend's comment that Claudia was at home (alone), they could go out the back of the pub (and the alley) and enter her property knowing she was in. Alleyman, having tried the back door, could hide for a minute and then trying ringing the front door, knowing all her friends were in the pub? He could have been breaking in downstairs somewhere (or perhaps didn't need to if there was an open window? Halliwell was a known burglar , but recent POI in York also robber - just nothing like CCTV alley guy for my money) whilst she was on the phone watching TV with her mum? Perhaps her lack of replies then confirm the time at which something may have happened to her? Is that a silly idea? I am aware now that as there were no signs of break-in it's possible someone got into the house who was known to her, had a key (someone at the property company? the acquisition was fairly recent? Or a key stolen or spare or copied from Jen from when Jen was staying there? This may account for her additional anguish in interview footage?).The lack of traces in the house is also confusing. Was Claudia lured outside somehow in the night, and then taken away? Some traces of an unknown man were found in the alleyway, but nothing DNA wise. We can only assume what happened to her happened away from the house. I'm back at square one. The walk to work....where Claudia is invisible....

 

[susie sixpence]

Halliwell was seen in the early afternoon (18th March the day before) filling his car with petrol with enough petrol/diesel for a significant journey.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Or her rucksack or it's contents, specifically the phone.

I find it really difficult to believe phone companies can't retrieve call and text data. The police must have some evidence about this they cna't divulge for legal reasons. They can't know it was deliberately turned off at a certain time the next day in Acomb and yet know nothing else.

 

[Raffy]

I think they have a hunch based on some evidence and psychological profiling. If they had evidence they'd be able to prosecute. If they don't know what happened,how it was done or where Claudia is it's a no hoper. If Chris Halliwell is not feasible and if he was inside a psychiatric unit or prison at the time, his recent cases show you can be prosecuted for murders without full evidence. He led police to the bodies of his victims, keeps trophies of clothing - I even suspected him of the Lindsay RImer murder as he was the right age, knew canals and had the right work history. I agree it's too easy to pin lots of crimes on one person and that was my initial thought, but the attacker in the city recently doesn't fit the profile as well as he seemed to attack, rob and rape but not kill. It's a proven transition in offenders. As with Wayne Couzens, we know they start with one thing and escalate through more and more serious crimes from there. Each case is different, sure, but each perpetrator has diffrent things he does, however gruesome it is to consider. The lift theory from Owl is a possibility. Someone Claudia thought she could trust, but who then turns out to be a kidnapper? That there is no recognisable footage of Claudia in the morning has always made me lean towards her losing her life the night before, or else being taken somewhere after her phone calls to family. Or, more likely, someone known or not could have confirmed she was in by overhearing something in the pub? Even an opportunist who wasn't known to her. A message via text like 'I'm going to bed, see you tomorrow night" would confirm not only to friends - if they were in the pub, and someone overheard a friend's comment that Claudia was at home (alone), they could go out the back of the pub (and the alley) and enter her property knowing she was in. Alleyman, having tried the back door, could hide for a minute and then trying ringing the front door, knowing all her friends were in the pub? Perhaps her lack of replies then confirm the time at which something may have happened to her? Is that a silly idea?

The police took the charges to the cps who 7 months later said their was a lack of evidence so they need more and that's what the police are waiting and looking for, more evidence which is all they need to solve it.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Halliwell was seen in the early afternoon (18th March the day before) filling his car with petrol with enough petrol/diesel for a significant journey.

Really? THis is news to me. Where did you see this?

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Yes who’s got them ?

I guess they could check the previous homes of the POI cited earlier who recently got arrested in York, and who had lived in Acomb. Not sure about what Suzie Sixpence said about Chris Halliwell being seen filling up his car for a long journey on 18th March - where was this said? Does anyone know?