GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #4

[Tortoise]

Why not just go back and ask for more though?

I don't think they like to give more than 28 days, because it's addictive.

 

[ColourPurple]

Zopiclone look quite distinctive, they are pale orange so it's unlikely Helen would have been taking another tablet that looked similar and they could be switched. As Snoopydog rightly says, Zopiclone look like a prescription tablet, not any kind of supplement.

I feel certain the evil swine must have been crushing up the sleeping tablets and doctoring an existing herbal/vitamin capsule that Helen was taking daily, this way he could get a strong dose of it down her without fail every 24 hours - even while he was away in hospital! This is reason alone why his computer history was wiped and his mobile phone 'went missing'. repeated online orders for Zopiclone. I wonder if the police have done much investigation into how he bought and administered it - I guess they don't have to, as the PM evidence of it in her body is enough.

Wonder if we'll ever find out how he did it?

There always seems to be so many unanswered questions after a trial ends. I think this one's going to be the same. Though I suppose there may be other evidence police had that couldn't be used in the trial that we'll hear about.

 

[snoopydog]

I don't think they like to give more than 28 days, because it's addictive.

Yeah any time I've got it they would only give 7 days worth...


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[Alyce]

Re Zopiclone - Would you still get the metallic or bitter taste if they were being part mixed with the actual herbal tablet ?

 

[DollyDiamond]

Wow thank you, astonishingly I have never seen this, I've only ever bought the chalky kind! Well those look absolutely perfect for doctoring. Yes, I suspect it wasn't just one kind of capsule he'd have tampered with. I looked at Helen's Twitter feed last night, it's still up with no mention that she has died, last Tweet a week before she died - very sad. And I was struck by how tired she looked in photos taken I think December 2015, to promote her 'Bikini' book. Awful to think she was probably already being drugged and going on TV, giving interviews, with no idea why she felt so spaced out. I wish to God, as we all do, that she hadn't been murdered - but I also wish to God she had known there was nothing wrong with her, that she wasn't losing her mind or becoming ineffective through the menopause, getting older etc. She was being drugged and sabotaged by that evil sonofa you know what! Just makes me so angry that he did that to her.

 

[snoopydog]

Re Zopiclone - Would you still get the metallic or bitter taste if they were being part mixed with the actual herbal tablet ?

You wouldn't get it if they were in a capsule. I think that's the only way he could have done this.


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[dalsglen]

Forgive my ignorance - can you buy paracetamol capsules that could be opened up and doctored with the Zopiclone, I haven't seen these? I think he would have been most likely to tamper with her vitamin/herbal capsules, safe in the knowledge that she took those daily (presumably she only took paracetamol sporadically).

There are quite a lot of herbal capsule remedies on the market, and some such as ginseng are surprisingly large - emptied out he could no doubt have easily put 2-4 crushed Zopiclone into one capsule. For Helen to have been doing things like collapsing on a beach and going home leaving her beloved Boris behind, I feel he must have been giving her massive doses. So he must have had more tablets than the 28 stated from the GP prescription. No doubt his computer and phone history could have revealed he was placing big orders online.

A guy I once knew used to buy the empty capsules and pill bottles online. Would fill the capsules with mdma and print out official looking labels for the bottles, putting ibuprofen or such like on them incase he was stopped by police etc

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't think they like to give more than 28 days, because it's addictive.

He got them in January though so it's not like he wouldve been going back 28 days later for more. He could have said he stopped taking them in Feb/March and that they worked so hed like to have some more. I realise we're trying to second guess the actions of somebody who's probably a sociopath though so Lord knows how his mind was working and maybe he did just think "Right the tablets have nearly run out so I'd better gone on with it"

 

[snoopydog]

I think part of the defence might be that the tablets would be impossible to administer crushed in tea or in food. Hopefully the prosecution will suggest capsules being doctored if they can ...


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[DollyDiamond]

Dolly, you drugging yourself with a cup of tea has made my day.

Ooh I know, I do suffer for my art, lol! I made sure I poured that evil cuppa down the sink because my significant other, little Dolly-Dog, has a naughty habit of drinking my unfinished cups of cold tea when I'm not looking, God forbid she should become another unwitting victim of GGHW - the Grotesque Grey Haired Widower!

 

[DollyDiamond]

Re Zopiclone - Would you still get the metallic or bitter taste if they were being part mixed with the actual herbal tablet ?

The Zopiclone are so powerfully nasty, I can't imagine you wouldn't be aware of a bitter taste/aftertaste (even the next day, in my experience of taking them for insomnia), but I guess Helen just put that down to some other tablet she was taking.

 

[DollyDiamond]

Yeah you get them in Tesco for sure. I buy them in capsules. They are pretty big as well... well as far as capsules go. They aren't say Prozac sized. They're more cold and flu sized if that makes sense....

I also don't think he was drugging her daily. I think it sounds like it was sporadic episodes rather than constant....

If she'd been taking them daily for 3 months I reckon she'd have been to the doctor to see wtf was going on. She'd have been constantly wasted

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Ah yes, that's an excellent point thank you.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Zopiclone look quite distinctive, they are pale orange so it's unlikely Helen would have been taking another tablet that looked similar and they could be switched. As Snoopydog rightly says, Zopiclone look like a prescription tablet, not any kind of supplement.

I feel certain the evil swine must have been crushing up the sleeping tablets and doctoring an existing herbal/vitamin capsule that Helen was taking daily, this way he could get a strong dose of it down her without fail every 24 hours - even while he was away in hospital! This is reason alone why his computer history was wiped and his mobile phone 'went missing'. repeated online orders for Zopiclone. I wonder if the police have done much investigation into how he bought and administered it - I guess they don't have to, as the PM evidence of it in her body is enough.

I have never had to use Zopiclone so was interested to see how many colours they can be. I found Turquoise, blue, pink, orange and white. The small white tablets look like so many other tablets. Crushed I imagine they are very unpalatable but the tablet crushed and placed in a capsule (if this was what he did) the taste would not be immediately apparent. He obviously managed to get her to take it for 3 months so he must have overcome the taste problem somehow.

http://www.medschat.com/topics/colour-of-zopiclone/

 

[jessie]

I don't think they like to give more than 28 days, because it's addictive.

At a time on the NHS, but I have had them on repeat for 9 years.

Also while I'm here :thinking: I think it is really important to have a neurologist give evidence of IS's "possible" MG. This disease seems to form part of the defence that he would have been too weak and incapacitated to have been capable of moving an adult body into that cesspit.
Professional evidence is needed here imo - proper investigatory evidence by his neurologist not just what IS has related to others.
I think I am correct that a sufferer of MG would be under the care of a neurologist ?

 

[DollyDiamond]

I have never had to use Zopiclone so was interested to see how many colours they can be. I found Turquoise, blue, pink, orange and white. The small white tablets look like so many other tablets. Crushed I imagine they are very unpalatable but the tablet crushed and placed in a capsule (if this was what he did) the taste would not be immediately apparent. He obviously managed to get her to take it for 3 months so he must have overcome the taste problem somehow.

http://www.medschat.com/topics/colour-of-zopiclone/

I didn't know prescription meds came in different colours so I assumed Zopiclone were always orange, but now you mention it, I have had white ones in the past. I don't think the bitter taste was a huge issue as long as Helen didn't associate it with a sleeping pill - she will just have put it down to one of her supplements tasting nasty. If only she had knowingly taken Zopiclone or a similar sleeping tablet in the past, I believe most are associated with a bitter aftertaste and had she known that, I think there's a slim chance she may have worked out something was afoot.

EDIT - Just re-read my post and I see I was assuming Helen had never knowingly taken sleeping tablets before IS started drugging her, which of course is ridiculous, chances are she had, especially after losing her husband so tragically. I guess we don't know but if she had experienced Zopiclone or similar tablets before, she'll have known about their bitter aftertaste.

 

[Interested Bystander]

At a time on the NHS, but I have had them on repeat for 9 years.

Also while I'm here :thinking: I think it is really important to have a neurologist give evidence of IS's "possible" MG. This disease seems to form part of the defence that he would have been too weak and incapacitated to have been capable of moving an adult body into that cesspit.
Professional evidence is needed here imo - proper investigatory evidence by his neurologist not just what IS has related to others.
I think I am correct that a sufferer of MG would be under the care of a neurologist ?

Initially he would be under the care of a neurologist but once one is stabilised on medication and unless one runs into problem a GP will take care of repeat prescription etc. He, however, I would have thought, had a yearly follow up. I was treated privately so I don't know. I had a number I could ring and get help immediately.

If he has had a thymectomy it is possible he could have come off drugs. Some people can. I was lucky, two years after thymectomy I managed to get off pyridostigmine. Steroids were a little more difficult but I did it in the end. However, my strength never returned to normal. Put down to a late diagnosis which can cause all the receptor sites being damaged. I even managed to get back to work part-time but only because I was bloody minded and had a desk job. I should have mentioned this earlier. It did look as though I was saying a myasthenic may never work again. It really depends how much physical effort is needed to hold a specific job down and how well the medication works for you. Some people never work again and often that may be due to attitude to one's illness or it being impossible to find a suitable job.

None of this makes a jot of difference as to whether he possibly can be found not guilty due to MG, AFAIAC. If he can go out and drive a car (which requires holding arms up) I am sure he could drag Helen to the garage.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I didn't know prescription meds came in different colours so I assumed Zopiclone were always orange, but now you mention it, I have had white ones in the past. I don't think the bitter taste was a huge issue as long as Helen didn't associate it with a sleeping pill - she will just have put it down to one of her supplements tasting nasty. If only she had knowingly taken Zopiclone or a similar sleeping tablet in the past, I believe most are associated with a bitter aftertaste and had she known that, I think there's a slim chance she may have worked out something was afoot.

It too did cross my mind that Helen sussed that morning that IS was "up to something" and that maybe she caught him messing with her herbal "medication". I think the paracetamol capsules look like a very good bet. Just think how easy it would be to replace the content with Zopiclone and as Paracetamol was found in her body it is quite likely that she used it for headaches etc but will we ever know, I think not .

 

[DollyDiamond]

Initially he would be under the care of a neurologist but once one is stabilised on medication and unless one runs into problem a GP will take care of repeat prescription etc. He, however, I would have thought, had a yearly follow up. I was treated privately so I don't know. I had a number I could ring and get help immediately.

If he has had a thymectomy it is possible he could have come off drugs. Some people can. I was lucky, two years after thymectomy I managed to get off pyridostigmine. Steroids were a little more difficult but I did it in the end. However, my strength never returned to normal. Put down to a late diagnosis which can cause all the receptor sites being damaged. I even managed to get back to work part-time but only because I was bloody minded and had a desk job. I should have mentioned this earlier. It did look as though I was saying a myasthenic may never work again. It really depends how much physical effort is needed to hold a specific job down and how well the medication works for you. Some people never work again and often that may be due to attitude to one's illness or it being impossible to find a suitable job.

None of this makes a jot of difference as to whether he possibly can be found not guilty due to MG, AFAIAC. If he can go out and drive a car (which requires holding arms up) I am sure he could drag Helen to the garage.

Very interesting post. I don't mean to disrespect those who genuinely suffer from this rare disorder but it does strike me as odd that he claims he can't do a desk job. He's a self-proclaimed 'computer expert' not a manual labourer! However as you say, it is patently ludicrous, not to say desperate, to argue (as the defence will) that a grown man in his fifties was unable to drag the body of a woman to the garage, a matter of yards, with the help of a duvet cover or similar. No one is even suggesting he carried her!

 

[faybradshaw]

Initially he would be under the care of a neurologist but once one is stabilised on medication and unless one runs into problem a GP will take care of repeat prescription etc. He, however, I would have thought, had a yearly follow up. I was treated privately so I don't know. I had a number I could ring and get help immediately.

If he has had a thymectomy it is possible he could have come off drugs. Some people can. I was lucky, two years after thymectomy I managed to get off pyridostigmine. Steroids were a little more difficult but I did it in the end. However, my strength never returned to normal. Put down to a late diagnosis which can cause all the receptor sites being damaged. I even managed to get back to work part-time but only because I was bloody minded and had a desk job. I should have mentioned this earlier. It did look as though I was saying a myasthenic may never work again. It really depends how much physical effort is needed to hold a specific job down and how well the medication works for you. Some people never work again and often that may be due to attitude to one's illness or it being impossible to find a suitable job.

None of this makes a jot of difference as to whether he possibly can be found not guilty due to MG, AFAIAC. If he can go out and drive a car (which requires holding arms up) I am sure he could drag Helen to the garage.

And he plays bowls, it was mentioned, which is quite strenuous as far as I know!

 

[Tortoise]

And he plays bowls, it was mentioned, which is quite strenuous as far as I know!

And mows that enormous lawn. Although I suppose he could have a sit on mower.