Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #4

[Whitehall 1212]

what evidence was found on the saw..? Can you find anything? I don't recall anything in detail being mentioned. The way it was reported was worded a little difficult to make out if blood and/or DNA of either Lindsay or the defendant was present.

Also.. how long would someone still bleed for after death? If say cut the same hour of death or a few days later? Just curious

Without a hearbeart we don't bleed.

Following death the blood pools to the lowest area of the body, depending on the position it is in.

Following death the constituent parts of the blood will separate out dependent on their individual mass, i.e. red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

DBM

 

[Thelastleg]

Just bringing this back up.... I wonder why the police were not able to find anyone at the gym, manager, trainer, etc, who might have been able to advise re the type of weights that the defendant used during his sessions

I would think a reputable gym would have cctv in public places if only to protect themselves from litigation.

 

[Thelastleg]

If there was a mystery man, I would agree that the defendant would know him and is being used as the fall guy and or exploited. However I don't believe that is the case, think it was all him but do think that around his arrest that members of his family have done some cleaning up of evidence for him.

I can't see, going by the evidence of his character thus far, that he woke up and decided to murder a random woman. He may have learning difficulties but he has clearly thought out the best way to dispose of a body. Perhaps he had help, but no one else is on trial.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I can't see, going by the evidence of his character thus far, that he woke up and decided to murder a random woman. He may have learning difficulties but he has clearly thought out the best way to dispose of a body. Perhaps he had help, but no one else is on trial.

We have not been told when the teachers last had weekly contact with the defendant. This is relevant when considering how their assessment reflects his presentation from 12 August 2019 onwards.

Their assessment is in one setting only and therefore is not a holistic view.

The defendant may have had a sexual motive, I fear we will never know. This resulted in him killing LB, either with or without intent.

The gravity of the injury that caused death indicates intent to cause serious harm at the very least.

His activity observed on CCTV indicates an individual who was acting in a disctinctly unilateral way.

 

[Emmalt]

Without a hearbeart we don't bleed.

Following death the blood pools to the lowest area of the body, depending on the position it is in.

Following death the constituent parts of the blood will separate out dependent on their individual mass, i.e. red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma.

Thank you.. So in her case it seemed it was her upper body where it all pooled based on the more decomposition in the top area... this presuming she was head first in the bin. I remember last trial it stated the diff in upper body decomposition compared to bottom half... sure we got a bit more detail.

 

[Emmalt]

I think we are again relying on snippets of court reporting for the saw.. this is what I can find, you could read from that that one or both items were forensically matched.

I read ‘a pair of trainers’

I believe the knife more likely on the trainers...

Possibly the knife.. I'm sure one was found in an iPhone box at his home and was mentioned last trial.
Both sketches trainers were found but only 1 of the soles

 

[Alyce]

It says that they didn’t need to contact his parents for behavioural issues. His attendance may have been another matter.

good point...so do you think the head teacher was being very careful with her testimony and not mentioning any issues there may have been with attendance ...or perhaps we didn’t hear this part of her testimony

 

[SpursGyal]

Possibly the knife.. I'm sure one was found in an iPhone box at his home and was mentioned last trial.
Both sketches trainers were found but only 1 of the soles

Yes it was, iPhone box containing knife and soil.

 

[SpursGyal]

good point...so do you think the head teacher was being very careful with her testimony and not mentioning any issues there may have been with attendance ...or perhaps we didn’t hear this part of her testimony

It’s probably again, just what snippets we’ve heard. His school records handed to police will contain attendance as standard.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Thank you.. So in her case it seemed it was her upper body where it all pooled based on the more decomposition in the top area... this presuming she was head first in the bin. I remember last trial it stated the diff in upper body decomposition compared to bottom half... sure we got a bit more detail.

I didn't say that!

You asked if we still bleed after death! That is the question I answered. I didn't equate my answer to rate of decomposition.

We can't make such any assumptions as to the differences in the rate of decomposition.

There are many factors that determine decomposition.

We don't have the full information or scientific knowledge to do that.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

good point...so do you think the head teacher was being very careful with her testimony and not mentioning any issues there may have been with attendance ...or perhaps we didn’t hear this part of her testimony

Well if she had been economical with the truth she would be perjuring herself in the Crown Court.

I suspect that teachers on the whole have more common sense than that!

 

[Emmalt]

I didn't say that!

You asked if we still bleed after death! That is the question I answered. I didn't equate my answer to rate of decomposition.

We can't make such any assumptions as to the differences in the rate of decomposition.

There are many factors that determine decomposition.

We don't have the full information or scientific knowledge to do that.

No you are right.. I did ask if we bled after death. I didn't say u said that but When u mentioned The pooling of blood in her body it made me think to the information given during the last trial.. that her top half was more decomposed than the bottom half.. suggesting she was head first in the bin. I can't find the quote they used but i will look later.

So when an attempt to chop her leg was made.. would she have bled out from that wound? Sorry to ask you but u seem to know slot more than most with regards to this type of thing. I'm just wondering if the blood found on the gloves and in the bin etc were from an injury when alive or from the injury to her leg

 

[Whitehall 1212]

No you are right.. I did ask if we bled after death. I didn't say u said that but When u mentioned The pooling of blood in her body it made me think to the information given during the last trial.. that her top half was more decomposed than the bottom half.. suggesting she was head first in the bin. I can't find the quote they used but i will look later.

So when an attempt to chop her leg was made.. would she have bled out from that wound? Sorry to ask you but u seem to know slot more than most with regards to this type of thing. I'm just wondering if the blood found on the gloves were from an injury when a love or from the injury to her leg

Blood does not need to be circulating to be transferred to an object after death.

There was an attempt to dismember LB's body, it can be safely assumed post mortem.

Severing any blood vessels is highly likely to transfer some blood compound and hence some DNA onto items in contact with the area around the severed blood vessels.

These matters really are irrelevant to the key evidence in the case. You don't need to know all the scientific background to make an assessment of the evidence being presented.

The key evidence is:

1. All the CCTV showing the defendant at the relevant times and witness corroboration.

2. The defendants admission to moving the body.

3. The catastrophic cause of death and force required to cause the fatal injury.

4. The DNA evidence, although the veracity of it may be challenged.

5. Zoe Braithwaite's eye witness testimony, although it is not corroborated.

6. The absence of any evidence of others being involved.

 

[Doris777]

No you are right.. I did ask if we bled after death. I didn't say u said that but When u mentioned The pooling of blood in her body it made me think to the information given during the last trial.. that her top half was more decomposed than the bottom half.. suggesting she was head first in the bin. I can't find the quote they used but i will look later.

So when an attempt to chop her leg was made.. would she have bled out from that wound? Sorry to ask you but u seem to know slot more than most with regards to this type of thing. I'm just wondering if the blood found on the gloves and in the bin etc were from an injury when alive or from the injury to her leg

U are right though emmalt, at the last trial the information we got about injuries and decomposition was more, this time they left that bit out of the reporting. It's true though as it said last time that due to deposition of the neck area they couldn't tell properly what injuries she had and that she had been placed in the bin head first.

I also watched the CCTV again today with him with the bin and yes it does look like there's some weight in the bin.

 

[Roostercat]

Well if she had been economical with the truth she would be perjuring herself in the Crown Court.

I suspect that teachers on the whole have more common sense than that!

I think she probably felt uncomfortable with the whole situation, giving a very damning picture of the defendant would feel like an admission of failure in her vocation as a teacher.. Had they failed the boy? Had they missed something about his behaviour that should have set a red flag off.? Fine line between admitting failure but also didnt by any means want to be seen as condoning his behaviours.

 

[Emmalt]

Blood does not need to be circulating to be transferred to an object after death.

There was an attempt to dismember LB's body, it can be safely assumed post mortem.

Severing any blood vessels is highly likely to transfer some blood compound and hence some DNA onto items in contact with the area around the severed blood vessels.

These matters really are irrelevant to the key evidence in the case. You don't need to know all the scientific background to make an assessment of the evidence being presented.

The key evidence is:

1. All the CCTV showing the defendant at the relevant times and witness corroboration.

2. The defendants admission to moving the body.

3. The catastrophic cause of death and force required to cause the fatal injury.

4. The DNA evidence, although the veracity of it may be challenged.

5. Zoe Braithwaite's eye witness testimony, although it is not corroborated.

6. The absence of any evidence of others being involved.

I am not trying to make any points that are relevant to the investigation, I am interested in the full picture that's all. I hope to see a documentary on this case in a few years so we then get the full picture of what happened from the beginning to the end.

If the lad had prior offenses would we know of such things by now? I'm just not believing he randomly woke up one morning and decided to assault/murder a random woman in a random attack. Usual psychopaths of that kind tend to start small and go big.. hurting/torturing animals, sex offenses, assaults and get some kind of enjoyment from it. A lot probably don't even resort to murder.. to start big from nothing with no previous evidence of violence seems unbelivable

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I think she probably felt uncomfortable with the whole situation, giving a very damning picture of the defendant would feel like an admission of failure in her vocation as a teacher.. Had they failed the boy? Had they missed something about his behaviour that should have set a red flag off.? Fine line between admitting failure but also didnt by any means want to be seen as condoning his behaviours.

Maybe, but even as a police officer giving evidence the barristers will question your very existence.

It always pays to be absolutely 100% honest and upfront even if one has made an embarrassing error.

Trying to pull the wool over their eyes will result in a very unpleasant experience in the witness box.

It's horrible but infinitely better than being recorded as someone who is not a witness of truth....that's kiss the job goodbye.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I am not trying to make any points that are relevant to the investigation, I am interested in the full picture that's all. I hope to see a documentary on this case in a few years so we then get the full picture of what happened from the beginning to the end.

If the lad had prior offenses would we know of such things by now? I'm just not believing he randomly woke up one morning and decided to assault/murder a random woman in a random attack. Usual psychopaths of that kind tend to start small and go big.. hurting/torturing animals, sex offenses, assaults and get some kind of enjoyment from it. A lot probably don't even resort to murder.. to start big from nothing with no previous evidence of violence seems unbelivable

How do you know he hasn't been stalking women for months or even assaulted some?

The procedure on introducing relevant previous convictions and 'bad character' evidence is not straight-forward and I wouldn't be able to do it justice here.

Generally, the defendant must be tried on the evidence in the case without the possibility of previous convictions or cautions influencing the jury as to his guilt.

It's great that you are interested in both forensic psychology and forensic pathology, but these are subjects that people specialise in with degrees followed by years of clinical experience. We can't do it justice here and there is a risk of people giving wrong or incomplete information.

I would urge that you look at a course in criminology where these elements will be introduced and you can question and discover to your hearts content.

 

[Emmalt]

How do you know he hasn't been stalking women for months or even assaulted some?

The procedure on introducing relevant previous convictions and 'bad character' evidence is not straight-forward and I wouldn't be able to do it justice here.

Generally, the defendant must be tried on the evidence in the case without the possibility of previous convictions or cautions influencing the jury as to his guilt in this case.

It's great that you are interested in the psychology of an offender and forensic pathology, but these are subjects that people specialise in with degrees followed by years of clinical experience. We can't do it justice here and there is a risk of people giving wrong or incomplete information.

I would urge that you look at a course in criminology where these elements will be introduced and you can question and discover to your hearts content.

Given the prosecution witness statements from his teacher/head teacher I was really expecting them to show him in a negative way, I thought he may have behaviour problems, anger issues, previous troubles at school, fighting etc... had that been the case I may have been convinced he did commit the murder and acted alone. The head teacher taught him for 3.5 years and the teacher over an 18 month period.. you would think there would be a single incident which showed him being capable of such violence but there is nothing. He was quiet, never in any trouble, never had to ring home regarding his behaviour. Ok so he is strong for his size etc.. but that's quite common given the community he is from.