UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

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  • #481
i will say they misrepresented the figures. we heard two deeaths are expected maybe three but there was a a total of 17 covering 15/16. the reasons why they emitted those numbers is important though. one might think a jury might look at that unit differently if they knew that, maybe put less credence on this unit working as it should be.

me i think she did it though. in a large part to do with the testimony of how she acted around bereaved parents.

eta. weirdly enough thats the only occasion where presentation of statistics seems to have been of immpact and incorrect. big thing to say "only 2/3 deaths are expected" and then not say "but there were also 12 other deaths on the unit in those years". genuinely want to know the reason why they didn't, i bet it makes perfectly good sense. is quite obvioulsy a deliberate omission as well.
 
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  • #482
No new evidence, sorry. Not a scapegoat, that's a ludicrous claim. Circumstantial evidence is stil evidence. etc., etc., etc.
circumstantial evidence is only evidence if it can be proven without doubt there are no other credible explanations
 
  • #483
  • #484
Ive been following this case for years - the evidence that has now come to light at last means her conviction is completely unsafe. She should never have been convicted - she was a convenient scapegoat for the failings of the Neo natal unit and the evidence convicting her is circumstantial and now it can be proved that these deaths can be explained ...no babies were murdered and it cannot be proved beyond doubt she murdered them. This will play out as the biggest miscarriage of justice od modern times IMO
"she was a convenient scapegoat"

That's funny. If you had been "following the case for years", then you would know that the unit and its managers did its best to PROTECT Letby.
 
  • #485


these media reports
Neither of those articles state which deaths they are referring to, and neither state what "broader deaths" they are referring to. We already know the number of deaths on the ward, year by year. What "extra" deaths are they referring to?
 
  • #486
"she was a convenient scapegoat"

That's funny. If you had been "following the case for years", then you would know that the unit and its managers did its best to PROTECT Letby.
Yes, they did and imo they should be ashamed.
 
  • #487
A nice round-up of the claims made by Ronald McDonald and his "eminent" experts.
The Devil's Advocates - Christopher Snowden

That article seems absolutely spot on imo. I always doubted this new evidence as well. seemed shoddy off the bat like the baby inheriting that blood clot problem. it was more or less conclusively ruled out as a possibility so what has made the new guys think its a potential? the bedrock of hard evidence in the trial was all on the med files and yes its 100% correct about the AE as well, was things outside the contents of dr lee's paper that was the bedrock of the air embolism evidence namely acute unexplained decline and difficulty in resus. the skin thing was additional to that and that supports dr evans statement as well. the prosecutions experts were all top of the line as well and in relevant and dedicated specialties, interesting to ask though isn't it if these guys had of been at the first trial rather than the defence's vacuum would the results have been different?
my guess is no, we would have two opposing parties both with high level witnesses both giving opinions difference is the prosecution has all that other stuff as well eg falsified notes, testimony from parents etc it may have been weaker but that does not mean it would have been less successful in terms of each parties desired outcome.

I doubt mr lee is actually familiar with the evidence tbh. its been stated many times by many folks that it was the totality of evidence that made her look guilty, it really never was one piece alone or even one type of evidence alone that got her the G. for example if her behaviour was normal then the med files kind of look weak and if she hadnt stored so much weird stuff at home? if noone had seen anything unusual example baby E mum and dr jayaram and if she hadnt of falsified notes etc

i dont think this will get far. im guessing dr lee got emotionally invested when he heard a nurse was in prison for a wlo and felt he had to get involved. she does have a nice smile, urgh i feel my skin crawling.
 
  • #488
For those now saying she was a convenient scapegoat and this new evidence absolves her of the crimes .
What is your theory on why she had the vials of insulin in her home and while I get a psychologist asking a patient to write down intrusive thoughts in a therapy session , why do so many of her notebooks refer to herself killing the babies
And why was she the only staff member allegedly affected by the deaths of the babies that she needed to write these so called intrusive thoughts down.

I have no doubt that this panel of experts have given an opinion based on their professional knowledge of air embolisms but until a panel of experts have access to all the evidence and see all the transcripts and reports I would deem their "new evidence " a snapshot opinion

Letby is currently building a friendship with another criminal Bienash Batool whom also claims her innocence and Myra Hindley and Rose West also proclaimed their innocence . Do we believe them too , of the evidence against them ,most was circumstantial too but it was an accumulation of the circumstantial evidence that stacked up against them. Just like with letby . Not all serial killers are cruel to animals and have a traceability to their evil imo

And I'm sure all us WS have seen the meddling of so call experts whose expertise bore no fruit in the end
 
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  • #489
Ive been following this case for years - the evidence that has now come to light at last means her conviction is completely unsafe. She should never have been convicted - she was a convenient scapegoat for the failings of the Neo natal unit and the evidence convicting her is circumstantial and now it can be proved that these deaths can be explained ...no babies were murdered and it cannot be proved beyond doubt she murdered them. This will play out as the biggest miscarriage of justice od modern times IMO
Couldn’t agree more. These experts are quite simply more credentialed than those who testified for the prosecution. The two ladies on that Daily Mail podcast juxtapose the findings of the new expert panel with reports from the trial. But these experts have read the court transcripts and all the evidence before coming to these new and devastating conclusions. So it’s not quite accurate to say that this evidence got tested adequately at trial, for the defence did not call on such well qualified experts to give evidence that no murders actually occurred.

The <modsnip - refers to a removed post with an unapproved source> and others in the media keep repeating the claim that the statistical evidence is beside the point but they’re completely missing the point. Without that, there would be no investigation. And I believe a preponderance of experts in statistics have pointed out that this investigation was launched on the basis of a ‘statistical abomination’. This means circumstantial evidence must be weighed extraordinarily carefully, given all kinds of narratives can obviously be spun out of confirmation bias. We know how powerful these biases are; we’re afflicted by them constantly in our day to day lives, no one is immune. Look at how tribalism is driving everyone and their uncle insane online these days. If you tell me one of my colleagues has been in attendance at 15 baby collapses for example, while that might be hardly statistically more improbably than getting a good win on the horses, which happens to thousands of people every day, it very quickly wouldn’t feel that way, and this would colour and distort everything thereafter.

If there’s no statistical basis for her guilt and now we’re hearing from the best of the best in experts who have considered the evidence, including those at trial, what are we left with?

Her own testimony? Looking up details about the parents? Caught red handed… doing what exactly? Being in a superb mood contemporaneously to all these deaths in her private life? It genuinely feels to me like you could have reams of evidence like this and the conviction would still be unsafe because it no longer really amounts to circumstantial at that point, it’s basically negligible imo.

When she writes *Im guilty* *I’m an evil person* in the same diary she also writes that she’s innocent and did not kill the babies, far from being compelling circumstantial evidence, it actually seems rather exculpatory. Given the timeline, in which she’s being accused of these crimes and attending therapy… would a serial baby murderer be guilt tripping herself half insane in her journal or is that more likely the behaviour of a wrongly accused person? For me, the answer is obvious and this was a lightbulb moment in my thinking on this case.

One of the key establishment voices in the legal profession Joshua Rosenberg has now writing an opinion column in which he states he’s changed his mind and that he thinks a retrial is in order. And I can only see things snowballing from here.

To repeat: I don’t know if she is or is not guilty. But the case against her looks now to be a mess and for whatever reason she clearly did not get an adequate defence at trial. That much I think is becoming very clear now.

This is an insanely emotive case. I hope we find out the truth for the families and I think at this point there has to be more than reasonable doubt that the conviction is unsafe.

<modsnip - political>

My bad if references to politics are not allowed.
 
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  • #490
Couldn’t agree more. These experts are quite simply more credentialed than those who testified for the prosecution. The two ladies on that Daily Mail podcast juxtapose the findings of the new expert panel with reports from the trial. But these experts have read the court transcripts and all the evidence before coming to these new and devastating conclusions. So it’s not quite accurate to say that this evidence got tested adequately at trial, for the defence did not call on such well qualified experts to give evidence that no murders actually occurred.

The <modsnip - reference to an unapproved source> and others in the media keep repeating the claim that the statistical evidence is beside the point but they’re completely missing the point. Without that, there would be no investigation. And I believe a preponderance of experts in statistics have pointed out that this investigation was launched on the basis of a ‘statistical abomination’. This means circumstantial evidence must be weighed extraordinarily carefully, given all kinds of narratives can obviously be spun out of confirmation bias. We know how powerful these biases are; we’re afflicted by them constantly in our day to day lives, no one is immune. Look at how tribalism is driving everyone and their uncle insane online these days. If you tell me one of my colleagues has been in attendance at 15 baby collapses for example, while that might be hardly statistically more improbably than getting a good win on the horses, which happens to thousands of people every day, it very quickly wouldn’t feel that way, and this would colour and distort everything thereafter.

If there’s no statistical basis for her guilt and now we’re hearing from the best of the best in experts who have considered the evidence, including those at trial, what are we left with?

Her own testimony? Looking up details about the parents? Caught red handed… doing what exactly? Being in a superb mood contemporaneously to all these deaths in her private life? It genuinely feels to me like you could have reams of evidence like this and the conviction would still be unsafe because it no longer really amounts to circumstantial at that point, it’s basically negligible imo.

When she writes *Im guilty* *I’m an evil person* in the same diary she also writes that she’s innocent and did not kill the babies, far from being compelling circumstantial evidence, it actually seems rather exculpatory. Given the timeline, in which she’s being accused of these crimes and attending therapy… would a serial baby murderer be guilt tripping herself half insane in her journal or is that more likely the behaviour of a wrongly accused person? For me, the answer is obvious and this was a lightbulb moment in my thinking on this case.

One of the key establishment voices in the legal profession Joshua Rosenberg has now writing an opinion column in which he states he’s changed his mind and that he thinks a retrial is in order. And I can only see things snowballing from here.

To repeat: I don’t know if she is or is not guilty. But the case against her looks now to be a mess and for whatever reason she clearly did not get an adequate defence at trial. That much I think is becoming very clear now.

This is an insanely emotive case. I hope we find out the truth for the families and I think at this point there has to be more than reasonable doubt that the conviction is unsafe.

<modsnip - political>
While I'm all for logic and debate and I fully agree that if the judge in her case did not ensure an airtight case for a guilty verdict, well then a retrial is fair for sure.

But I think to base her now precieved innocence on the opinion of a small panel of statistical experts and for that opinion to suddenly reverse all other legal and medical opinions would be a disrespect and disregard to the families of the babies who did die .

Each side of the fence wants the truth
And an innocent face can hide a twisted mind and certain personality types like sociopaths can conceal evil for years . I would like to see letbys psychology and psychiatry reports to see if there is personality type disorders . I cannot see why she was singled out to be the scapegoat if the hospital were protecting her so much from complaints going in by consultants etc and also imo ,a completely innocent person would not have such incriminating evidence in their home moo
 
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  • #491
While I'm all for logic and debate and I fully agree that if the judge in her case did not ensure an airtight case for a guilty verdict, well then a retrial is fair for sure.

But I think to base her now precieved innocence on the opinion of a small panel of statistical experts and for that opinion to suddenly reverse all other legal and medical opinions would be a disrespect and disregard to the families of the babies who did die .

Each side of the fence wants the truth
And an innocent face can hide a twisted mind and certain personality types like sociopaths can conceal evil for years . I would like to see letbys psychology and psychiatry reports to see if there is personality type disorders . I cannot see why she was singled out to be the scapegoat if the hospital were protecting her so much from complaints going in by consultants etc and also imo ,a completely innocent person would not have such incriminating evidence in their home moo
this is exactly why the “she was a scapegoat” cries hold no water to me. There was so much done by the hospital to protect her; if they’d wanted to scapegoat her it wouldn’t have gone on as long.
 
  • #492
While I'm all for logic and debate and I fully agree that if the judge in her case did not ensure an airtight case for a guilty verdict, well then a retrial is fair for sure.

But I think to base her now precieved innocence on the opinion of a small panel of statistical experts and for that opinion to suddenly reverse all other legal and medical opinions would be a disrespect and disregard to the families of the babies who did die .

Each side of the fence wants the truth
And an innocent face can hide a twisted mind and certain personality types like sociopaths can conceal evil for years . I would like to see letbys psychology and psychiatry reports to see if there is personality type disorders . I cannot see why she was singled out to be the scapegoat if the hospital were protecting her so much from complaints going in by consultants etc and also imo ,a completely innocent person would not have such incriminating evidence in their home moo
what's the incriminating evidence in her home? I personally worked in criminal justice with ex offenders and I often looked up media reports about some of the people I worked with. It's probably not best practice, it's much better to take people as they come and not to know anything about them to deliver the best care. But likewise with Letby, I'm almost certain that nurses all across the land are looking up details of some of their patients with the proliferation of social media, loneliness and human curiosity. I don't see any of that amounting to very much at all. And the supposed confession in her notes, for me, actually does more to exonerate her than convict her. I cannot imagine a psychopath serial killer to ever bother to write 'i killed them', 'i did it' (let alone also that she did not do it and wasn't guilty) in a diary that he or she kept after having been accused of these crimes. A cold-hearted killer would have absolutely no need to go through such a guilt-tripping exercise. I know that the notes seemed like a gotcha at the time. I recall hearing about them from a news report at the time and thinking that was cast iron evidence of guilt. But on careful reflection, I think the notes point very strongly in favour of her innocence, not guilt. Remember: unless she's playing 4D chess with herself, she probably wrote these notes thinking they would not see the light of day. Would a psychopath killer write such a note? Alongside the opposite assertion that she was innocent? It seems clear to me that this is not in fact, as its cherry picked appearance at court would lead us to believe, evidence of a guilty mind.
 
  • #493
what's the incriminating evidence in her home? I personally worked in criminal justice with ex offenders and I often looked up media reports about some of the people I worked with. It's probably not best practice, it's much better to take people as they come and not to know anything about them to deliver the best care. But likewise with Letby, I'm almost certain that nurses all across the land are looking up details of some of their patients with the proliferation of social media, loneliness and human curiosity. I don't see any of that amounting to very much at all. And the supposed confession in her notes, for me, actually does more to exonerate her than convict her. I cannot imagine a psychopath serial killer to ever bother to write 'i killed them', 'i did it' (let alone also that she did not do it and wasn't guilty) in a diary that he or she kept after having been accused of these crimes. A cold-hearted killer would have absolutely no need to go through such a guilt-tripping exercise. I know that the notes seemed like a gotcha at the time. I recall hearing about them from a news report at the time and thinking that was cast iron evidence of guilt. But on careful reflection, I think the notes point very strongly in favour of her innocence, not guilt. Remember: unless she's playing 4D chess with herself, she probably wrote these notes thinking they would not see the light of day. Would a psychopath killer write such a note? Alongside the opposite assertion that she was innocent? It seems clear to me that this is not in fact, as its cherry picked appearance at court would lead us to believe, evidence of a guilty mind.
more personalised evidence like medical records for babies shes accused of harming, example blood gas records which was thought to have been retrieved from the waste bin by LL thereby if true she must ahve made a deliberate effort to possess something personal from her victims. this in combination with her fb searches at questionable levels on the families of her victims and patients long after already minimum contact had been ceased suggests she had taken a personal interest in these people. why? i will also concede that i wouldnt think it unknown for nhs staff to fb or google patients although it is against their contract.

there are other potentials about the notes for instance she could simply be imitating what she thought would be a normal reaction to her circumstances. there is also no accusation of her being a psychopath. remember the police said she seemed to make no effort to hide these things and one even said he thought she wanted them to find it which was actually a reference to her diary not the notes which were fnd at her work and written during her investigation at the coch but maybe same principle applies to the notes. the notes were not a particularly big part of the evidence, great for a news story but as evidence in court maybe not such a big deal.
 
  • #494
DBM
 
  • #495
more personalised evidence like medical records for babies shes accused of harming, example blood gas records which was thought to have been retrieved from the waste bin by LL thereby if true she must ahve made a deliberate effort to possess something personal from her victims. this in combination with her fb searches at questionable levels on the families of her victims and patients long after already minimum contact had been ceased suggests she had taken a personal interest in these people. why? i will also concede that i wouldnt think it unknown for nhs staff to fb or google patients although it is against their contract.

there are other potentials about the notes for instance she could simply be imitating what she thought would be a normal reaction to her circumstances. there is also no accusation of her being a psychopath. remember the police said she seemed to make no effort to hide these things and one even said he thought she wanted them to find it which was actually a reference to her diary not the notes which were fnd at her work and written during her investigation at the coch but maybe same principle applies to the notes. the notes were not a particularly big part of the evidence, great for a news story but as evidence in court maybe not such a big deal.
I don't think the things you mention really amount to that much. I think in the absence of compelling medical evidence, keeping ahold of medical records for babies she's been accused of harming or even retrieving records from the bin have much evidentiary weight. As I said, people could take a morbid interest in such things for countless reasons both harmless and more nefarious without it ever implicating them in something like murder. Say you knock out the statistical evidence entirely and account for the fact that improper use of statistics (as now charged by illustrious bodies on statistics) has set the whole thing in train from the start thereby colouring everything with confirmation bias for everyone involved. Then you pit the medical evidence from the prosecution against this new medical evidence from the panel. Say you rule their respective evidence-giving as cancelling each other out. It's hard for me to imagine that any of this other circumstantial evidence carries much weight or anywhere near enough to convict someone of these murders. I don't think even a mountain of such pieces of evidence as facebook search at questionable levels, again in the absence of concrete evidence and with experts now willing to risk their reputations to state that no murders have taken place, could ever be enough to convict. Because they're basically meaningless bits of behaviour that is really pretty commonplace. I don't believe there's a suggestion here that she only searched for information on the parents of babies she was accused of murdering before she was accused, if you get what I mean. No statistically clear smoking gun-like pattern has emerged where was discovered that she only looked up the babies she was then accused of murdering. If the way the evidence of her alleged confession was cherry-picked in court was anything to go by, I'd guess that while there might be a pattern of her obsessively looking up the parents of babies who she was supposed to be looking after, there's probably also evidence of her having looked up the parents of, say, other parents whose babies she was supposed to care for and who she hasn't been accused of murdering. Perhaps there's a ton of circumstantial evidence that I haven't seen; I just think this new development throws the whole thing into uncertainty.
 
  • #496
The problem with writing off everything as insufficient evidence, is that it's the whole which needs to be looked at, not cherry-picking bits and saying "that doesn't mean anything". I was guilty of that myself with the papers etc, but they all add to a picture that cannot be ignored when taken together with the fact that something was very clearly not right on the medical side of things.

I disagree with these new experts, they cannot definitively say "there was no murder" as there is no credible alternative explanation for the entirety of the pattern observed over those two years. If there was really no murder then these points need to be answered:

- A run of babies collapsing suddenly, in unexplainable manners which doctors had never seen before, and was presumably not happening in any other hospital in the country, or there would have been collaboration to figure out the medical cause. It's not just the deaths but the sudden unexplained collapses too, of which there were a lot.

- Babies which were completely healthy suddenly collapsing - sometimes on milestone dates, like the baby who collapsed on her 100 day birthday. (I think there may have been more than one milestone collapse with that baby but I can't recall the details). A few collapsed when just about to go home, too.

- Twins who were otherwise healthy both collapsing 1-2 days apart; one with very elevated insulin levels, one with mystery cause. Twice. In unrelated pairs of twins. I'm sorry, there is no way that is coincidental.

- Interesting timing of collapses when LL was in a bad mood or resentful over not being allowed to go where she wanted to - her text conversations often coincided with incidents.

- Complete lack of such collapses when LL was on holiday, immediate return when she gets back. Unless she's a Typhoid Mary with an undetectable highly contagious illness which only affects selected patients (often healthy twins/triplets), that seems more than odd if there's "no murder" here.

- And while not involved in this trial, how come the rate of dislodged breathing tubes at Liverpool Women's Hospital was 40% on LL's shifts, when it's typically lower than 1%?

And of course, away from the medical side, the fact that, when on the stand, LL herself had no answer for questions about her own behaviour. She couldn't even make up something plausible about the collection of handover sheets. Nor could she explain why a bereaved parent found her ignoring their baby, screaming and bleeding - instead she claimed it couldn't have happened despite the time of the parent's visit being verified. I only became confident of her guilt during her own testimony - because I could've made up better answers to the questions than she could, when actually being there should mean she could easily explain her actions.

As I've said before, I firmly recommend reading through all of the past threads here - you will see much more detailed information, and many intelligent and organised posters who could make sense of it all (Tortoise's posts are particularly useful), cross-reference dates and times of collapses, text messages, shifts, etc etc, together with actual experienced nurses giving us context for typical procedures and expected behaviours. All of that together helped me understand what was actually happening. Yes, it's a mammoth task to read them all, but it's the only way to get (close to) the same information which the jury had, and that is what led them to their verdicts.
 
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  • #497
even if you ustion doctor lees impartially what about the other 13 doctors who agree with him most of whom dident even know who lucy letby is
Which means they didn't follow the original trial. If they had (like we did on here in great detail) they wouldn't be questioning her guilt!

She was NOT convicted purely on medical evidence.
 
  • #498
"Lucy Letby
'is whining in jail
that a re-trial would take too long while her life is wasting away -
as her friendship with another child murderer strengthens'.

View attachment 563080

But despite these reported struggles,
Letby has apparently struck up a grim friendship
with another child murderer on the prison wing -
Beinash Batool."

Oh dear...
What a pair :oops:

I'd never take these types of article at face value, tbh. There is absolutely no way the papers know what her daily routine in prison is. If they don't quite a verifiable source then it's most likely completely made up.
 
  • #499
The MSM headlines are insane at the moment. It’s also been (as I’m local ) reported on regional news extensively which doesn’t help.
I think things will quieten down now for a good while. Her “ team “ can slope off back under their rocks and wait for a decision which in reality will take months if not years. No amount of press conferences will make anything move faster.
New charges are also a possibility.
Personally I don’t think this will get back to court but that’s just my opinion.
I would be genuinely stunned if it got anywhere near a court again, tbh!

Those in her team and everyone else who's convinced themselves that she's innocent are on a fantasy trip, imo.
 
  • #500
of course there isnt just the new medical evidence there is prosecution witneses telling different stories at the inquiry to the the ones they told at the trial making them unreliable witnesses
This is NOT "new" medical evidence! This has all been done to death during her trials and appeal applications and suchlike.
 
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