UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

[su5ie]

apparantely from a author here insulin is not regulated at a hospital, i find that strange.? she says not checked how much used etc ...very strange to me.

I find that strange too , I don't live in UK but in my country in the childrens hospital even calpol dosage is wrote down alongside time and date . And as this is an otc medication I suspect its not a controlled substance . So why wasn't records kept of this to deduce amount given and deducted from amounts stored at any given time .

And surely if as alleged Lucy had vials of insulin recovered from her home that would be a smoking gun and along with other guilt implying evidence no matter how much of that can be reduced to circumstantial evidence it looks to be on the balance of probability more guilty than innocent.

I don't know whether mainstream media are creating shocking headlines for clicks but upon opening my news app this morning and seeing the headline "Free Lucy " and "Lucy should be freed and placed under house arrest " it is an insult to the grieving families and will only provoke anger and upset .
But hey I suppose these media giants will always place money over emotions and the pain of families and eager readers will form opinions from a prospective of what has been available in the public domain since the beginning. And most of that is formed from click bait articles and differing levels of intelligence imo

 

[mrC]

from lucy herself Lucy Letby wrote note because ‘everything got on top of me’

 

[Tortoise]

25: The Inquiry: The Press Conference. How significant was it?

Podcast Episode · The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Inquiry · 07/02/2025 · 49m

podcasts.apple.com

"In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials.

They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal."

 

[Paul Dutch]

I’m glad there’s a possibility of seeing new evidence investigated. Although I wouldn’t have a problem, if the original guilty verdict was upheld, I have always felt uncomfortable with experts, seeming to cover each other’s backs.
I do have a knowledge of the medical profession & I am well aware that some consultants would struggle to admit making an error of judgement.

 

[Moll]

More on the insulin dispute...it's odd to me that these experts work in the field of bioengineering/ chemical engineering, but I am totally ignorant on this issue.

‘Strong reasonable doubt’ over Lucy Letby insulin convictions, experts say

Exclusive: ‘No scientific justification’ to say former nurse definitely poisoned babies with insulin, according to study authors

www.theguardian.com

Extract:
"However, a new 100-page report by Chase, a distinguished professor of bioengineering at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand, and the British chemical engineering expert Helen Shannon, says low blood sugar levels are “not uncommon” in pre-term infants.

The study adds that insulin poisoning would probably have resulted in far lower levels of potassium and glucose than the babies’ records show, and points out that they showed no symptoms of severe insulin poisoning, such as seizures or heart arrhythmia."

 

[esther43]

25: The Inquiry: The Press Conference. How significant was it?

Podcast Episode · The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Inquiry · 07/02/2025 · 49m

podcasts.apple.com

"In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials.

They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal."

That was so interesting. Especially the guest speaker!

 

[Sweeper2000]

More on the insulin dispute...it's odd to me that these experts work in the field of bioengineering/ chemical engineering, but I am totally ignorant on this issue.

‘Strong reasonable doubt’ over Lucy Letby insulin convictions, experts say

Exclusive: ‘No scientific justification’ to say former nurse definitely poisoned babies with insulin, according to study authors

www.theguardian.com

Extract:
"However, a new 100-page report by Chase, a distinguished professor of bioengineering at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand, and the British chemical engineering expert Helen Shannon, says low blood sugar levels are “not uncommon” in pre-term infants.

The study adds that insulin poisoning would probably have resulted in far lower levels of potassium and glucose than the babies’ records show, and points out that they showed no symptoms of severe insulin poisoning, such as seizures or heart arrhythmia."

thats interesting. i really doubt it though. we have a professor in endocrinology backing the prosecution opposed by two yes high level professionals in a very different field. the closest one is bioengineering which again is a fair way away from specialising in the bodies hormone system of which a part is insulin production. i dont think they will have much weight against prof hindmarsh tbh. we will have to wait and see.

i would like to know what it is about these new experts that makes them think they can have valid input on medical issues. reminds me of dr lee saying something about enterovirus being a potential and we know where he got that from.

 

[JosieJo]

25: The Inquiry: The Press Conference. How significant was it?

Podcast Episode · The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Inquiry · 07/02/2025 · 49m

podcasts.apple.com

"In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials.

They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal."

This was really enlightening..going through each baby and reminding us of how most of the "new evidence" was already thoroughly tested in court.
It was something I wanted to look at but hadn't got the time to do. It really makes a difference if the Journalist's are knowledgeable on the case

 

[esther43]

One of the most inte

This was really enlightening..going through each baby and reminding us of how most of the "new evidence" was already thoroughly tested in court.
It was something I wanted to look at but hadn't got the time to do. It really makes a difference if the Journalist's are knowledgeable on the case

They did well to pull that together in such a short period of time.

 

[JosieJo]

That was so interesting. Especially the guest speaker!

Yes especially his opinion that the case being such "a hot potato" they may allow it back to court of appeal for them to decide

Also interesting that this "independent panel" Not only does Dr Lee have a connection having been given "short shrift" by the court of Appeal...but Also Neena Moni headed up the Royal College who carried out the review of the COCH which has been criticised by Thirwall Enquiry

 

[Sweeper2000]

This was really enlightening..going through each baby and reminding us of how most of the "new evidence" was already thoroughly tested in court.
It was something I wanted to look at but hadn't got the time to do. It really makes a difference if the Journalist's are knowledgeable on the case

just listening in and we have dr lee challenging alder hey and great ormond street hospitals on if poor baby A had inherited his moms blood clotting problem. i place a much higher trust in both of those hospitals.

what is more interesting though is his supposed cause of death for poor baby A. A blood clot which in function would be no different than an air embolism in my untrained guesswork. he is saying some form of arterial blockage caused the death thus agreeing with dr evans reading of the clinical notes. now that is interesting. im going with alder hey and ormond street currently.

 

[JosieJo]

just listening in and we have dr lee challenging alder hey and great ormond street hospitals on if poor baby A had inherited his moms blood clotting problem. i place a much higher trust in both of those hospitals.

what is more interesting though is his supposed cause of death for poor baby A. A blood clot which in function would be no different than an air embolism in my untrained guesswork. he is saying some form of arterial blockage caused the death thus agreeing with dr evans reading of the clinical notes. now that is interesting. im going with alder hey and ormond street currently.

I think ..and no expert..that he is trying to say because of the anatomy of a neonates heart the air would not reach the arterial system but a clot could.
I did find his theory interesting..what I did note was though he said there hadn't been any papers written where air was put into the veins (rather than arterial) and rashes were seen ...he didn't actually say it wouldn't happen

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think ..and no expert..that he is trying to say because of the anatomy of a neonates heart the air would not reach the arterial system but a clot could.
I did find his theory interesting..what I did note was though he said there hadn't been any papers written where air was put into the veins (rather than arterial) and rashes were seen ...he didn't actually say it wouldn't happen

interesting to say the least. you get that from the podcast? didnt hear that just about the clot forming on the end of the tube. i wonder what he thinks would happen to a gas bubble should it enter the bloodstream of a neonate as happened in this case. presumably a neonates lungs wouldnt filter it no different from a adults.

Venous Air Embolism Leading to Cardiac Arrest in an Infant with Cyanotic Congenital Heart Disease - PMC

Gas emboli, including venous and arterial, are a rare but important complication of pediatric cardiac surgery. They have the potential to have devastating consequences and require prompt recognition and treatment. We present a case of gas embolism ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Parker Knoll]

Yes agreed, and interesting episode.
It would make sense for the CCRC to send it to the COA for them to kick it to the curb so let’s see on that.
JMO

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

thats interesting. i really doubt it though. we have a professor in endocrinology backing the prosecution opposed by two yes high level professionals in a very different field. the closest one is bioengineering which again is a fair way away from specialising in the bodies hormone system of which a part is insulin production. i dont think they will have much weight against prof hindmarsh tbh. we will have to wait and see.

Agreed. The new guy does bioengineering? He knows more about the topic than the pediatric endocrinologist? Sorry I don't buy it. This guy says neonatal hypoglycemia is common in preemies. That's like saying water is wet. Not a bombshell...

 

[Sweeper2000]

Agreed. The new guy does bioengineering? He knows more about the topic than the pediatric endocrinologist? Sorry I don't buy it. This guy says neonatal hypoglycemia is common in preemies. That's like saying water is wet. Not a bombshell...

interesting. yeh he does have relevant experience apparently.

"geoff chase"

apparently has had experience on insulin in icu and nicu.

"3a. Implementing blood glucose (sugar) control in ICUs and NICUs in Christchurch and around the world – we save lives and costs every day, and have done so for 16 years (and counting)"

Five minutes with Geoff Chase | Engineering New Zealand

Geoff Chase is a Distinguished Professor of Engineering at the University of Canterbury where he has carried out his research for 22 years. He delves into his career highlights and what he's most proud of.

www.engineeringnz.org

"The University Council has announced the medal will be awarded to Distinguished Professor Geoffrey Chase, of UC Mechanical Engineering, who specialises in dynamic systems modelling and control applied to medicine and structures. His pioneering work has real-world impact that ranges from intensive care medicine for babies to earthquake engineering."

“His research also pursues solutions in many other areas of medicine, which include clinical practice changes in the Neonatal ICU for glycaemic control and novel very low-cost methods of diagnosing type 2 diabetes before the ability to intervene and reduce long-term costs is passed, and low-cost and non-invasive means of breast cancer diagnosis.”

Geoffrey Chase | 2016 | University of Canterbury

Meet Distinguished Professor Geoffrey Chase from Mechanical Engineering who received the UC Research Medal in 2016. He specialises in dynamic systems modelling and more.

www.canterbury.ac.nz

Distinguished Professor Geoff Chase is working on world-first insulin sensor technology for those managing type 2 diabetes.

Distinguished Professor Geoff Chase, from the University of Canterbury (UC) College of Engineering, is working on world-first insulin sensor technology to enable ‘right now’ measurement for those managing type 2 diabetes.

World-first insulin technology will provide better diabetes care | University of Canterbury

University of Canterbury College of Engineering Distinguished Professor Geoff Chase is working on world-first insulin sensor technology to enable ‘right now’ measurement for those managing type 2 diabetes.

www.canterbury.ac.nz

yeh seems he is a fully fledged med doctor and the bioengineering aspect comes from his designing systems for treatment or other medical applications for which im sure comprehensive med knowledge is necessary.

I still doubt that the med evidence used at trial is flawed though as that would entail errors through mutliple levels of organisations and from people with the highest levels of experience and knowledge. i seriously doubt both gt ormond street and alder hey got that blood clotting problem wrong.

 

[JosieJo]

interesting to say the least. you get that from the podcast? didnt hear that just about the clot forming on the end of the tube. i wonder what he thinks would happen to a gas bubble should it enter the bloodstream of a neonate as happened in this case. presumably a neonates lungs wouldnt filter it no different from a adults.

Venous Air Embolism Leading to Cardiac Arrest in an Infant with Cyanotic Congenital Heart Disease - PMC

Gas emboli, including venous and arterial, are a rare but important complication of pediatric cardiac surgery. They have the potential to have devastating consequences and require prompt recognition and treatment. We present a case of gas embolism ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It was part of Dr Lee's explanation in their "baby 1" case in the press conference

 

[Sweeper2000]

He added: “I disagree with Lee’s assertion that I was ‘selective’. Quite the contrary. This is why I asked to review all the deaths and collapses from 2015 and 2016, not just the ’suspicious’ or ‘unexpected’ ones, or the ones where Letby was on duty.

“That’s why I told the police that if they had a ’suspect’, I didn’t want to know. I only heard about Letby in July 2018, when she was arrested for the first time.

“I identified malfeasance because the evidence pointed to it.”

Lucy Letby expert review worth very little, says prosecution witness

Dr Dewi Evans denies he has been selective with evidence after leading experts claimed the infants’ deaths all had medical explanations

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

It was part of Dr Lee's explanation in their "baby 1" case in the press conference

cheers ill have a look at that. was difficult to follow.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Sweeper, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere that Dr. Chase is a medical doctor; rather that he has a PhD in engineering. I have no doubt he is a very smart guy and that he is knowledgeable of his topic which is insulin sensors used in ICU setting. But I do not think that makes his opinion more credible than Dr. Hindmarsh who is an endocrinologist. Only my opinion.