UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

[Sweeper2000]

for anyone who wants to know there are guidelines for the storage and use of insulin on nhs units but none down to the last unit which is an incredibly small amount of liquid. they all come in vials and used on a as needed basis. its also a drug that staff need urgent access to within a few minutes so cant be behind 100 layers of protection. there is no basis to think she couldnt get to it. staff access to it is not logged. if one vial is opened it is then stored for a while before being disposed of. the vials all contain many many units and dosage for any one patient rarely or never exceeds single digit measures so they do store it for a while otherwise its just a waste. in a 5 ml vial is 50 units so they dont waste the remaining 47 units if it is prescribed. insulin although rarely used on a nicu unit is still used often enough to have a vial opened and left in storage.

this info according to the thirlwall enquiry.

INQ0107008 – Pages 1 – 5 of Summary of Finding from NHS England relating to Safe and secure handling of insulin on neonatal units | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

eta. as its not a controlled drug the wastage isnt recorded apparently. you could syphon off 50 units and nobody would know.

 

[joltz]

but on 4th feb 25 its said on news that a few top medics say she well may not have done it....so it goes to a retrial i suspect....so why was this evidence not brought up earlier in first trial?????

Its not going to a retrial just because Letbys defence barrister has done a press conference and scoured the earth and found 14 people who are willing to give alternative reasons for the collapses. They have done this in isolation as well, without considering any of the witness testimony and behavioural evidence. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they haven't bothered to actually look into the trial because much of what they are claiming has been discussed in depth at trial and rebutted. It didn't stand up in court. Some of the suggestions also just don't make any sense. Baby K in particular. Dr Jayaram is just meant to have forgotten how to do his job. They have not mentioned the fact that the alarms can be silenced for 1 minute at a time and that's what the prosecution was suggesting Letby did. These people simply haven't looked into the actual evidence presented at the trial. Its also one thing making suggestions but actually getting as far as court is another matter. How many of these people would actually want to put their professional reputations on the line when they actually bother to look at the evidence from the trial and realise that their accounts don't hold water.

 

[Ruthbullock]

but on 4th feb 25 its said on news that a few top medics say she well may not have done it....so it goes to a retrial i suspect....so why was this evidence not brought up earlier in first trial?????

That is where a lot of debate is going on generally around experts and how they are used within the UK court. In the original trail all of these experts would need to be funded and it’s unlikely they would have been interested in even offering their services. The use of a paper in the trial, but not the person who wrote it- is a second debate to be had at a later date. The use of a paper though and the author then disagreeing with how it was presented (partially as he has now clarified some of the paper where it refers to arteries and veins and made the difference clearer, albeit after the trial- but probably in response to its potential to be misinterpreted) has secured him into gathering 13 other specialists from across the globe to review all the evidence against current papers, knowledge and research as pro bono work. No specialist wants their work represented in a way that it was not originally intended- they weren’t motivated by the outcome of the trial, nor did they intend to convince people of her innocence or guilt originally- they were working for free to protect their own professional reputations.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Its not going to a retrial just because Letbys defence barrister has done a press conference and scoured the earth and found 14 people who are willing to give alternative reasons for the collapses. They have done this in isolation as well, without considering any of the witness testimony and behavioural evidence. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they haven't bothered to actually look into the trial because much of what they are claiming has been discussed in depth at trial and rebutted. It didn't stand up in court. Some of the suggestions also just don't make any sense. Baby K in particular. Dr Jayaram is just meant to have forgotten how to do his job. They have not mentioned the fact that the alarms can be silenced for 1 minute at a time and that's what the prosecution was suggesting Letby did. These people simply haven't looked into the actual evidence presented at the trial. Its also one thing making suggestions but actually getting as far as court is another matter. How many of these people would actually want to put their professional reputations on the line when they actually bother to look at the evidence from the trial and realise that their accounts don't hold water.

BBM- completely agree with your valid first point. You may have to then concede, if it does go to retrial (and at this point I’m not sure it will) that it is not solely based on just this review and that a retrial is based on numerous areas. Unless you are also going to dispute the reputation of someone who does make that decision, alongside all the other professionals you allege to be biased and who are throwing themselves wide open to professional scrutiny. The reality is, if what they have suggested is not realistic- there will soon be a group of professionals volunteering to work pro bono for the defence and create a report- the cycle will begin again. It’s frustrating for us, heart breaking for those involved- but clarity is needed for more reasons than just this case.

 

[iamshadow21]

but when one group of eperts is getting paid aand another group isnt i know whoi believe, especially when there a much larger group

One thing I think I can guarantee is everyone is getting paid. You think people like that just hand out news spots and interviews for free? Nope. They're getting their fifteen minutes, and they're milking it for whoever's willing to pay for their opinion on live tv.

MOO

 

[Ruthbullock]

One thing I think I can guarantee is everyone is getting paid. You think people like that just hand out news spots and interviews for free? Nope. They're getting their fifteen minutes, and they're milking it for whoever's willing to pay for their opinion on live tv.

MOO

How many of the 14 have you seen on tv? I have only seen one person and he could have just as easily cashed in on leaving his original paper alone and been the specialist who wrote the paper that backed up her conviction, offering his medical services as an expert witness across the globe. He may surprise me and start appearing in neonatal court cases across Canada and the US, but I don’t think that is his goal at all.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

One thing I think I can guarantee is everyone is getting paid. You think people like that just hand out news spots and interviews for free? Nope. They're getting their fifteen minutes, and they're milking it for whoever's willing to pay for their opinion on live tv.

MOO

And
It’s advertising to be an expert witness in future cases.

Expert witness can be absolutely demolished in court (there were 2 at M Tronconis trial were absolutely destroyed).

 

[Dotta]

"Lucy Letby
'is whining in jail
that a re-trial would take too long while her life is wasting away -
as her friendship with another child murderer strengthens'.



But despite these reported struggles,
Letby has apparently struck up a grim friendship
with another child murderer on the prison wing -
Beinash Batool."

Oh dear...
What a pair

Lucy Letby 'is whining in jail' that her life is wasting away

Letby, 35, was given 15 life sentences after being found guilty of the murder of seven babies and attempting to murder another eight whilst she worked at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JosieJo]

Surely the hospital pharmacist would keep a note of everything that is ordered, distributed and then used on each ward?

Just to explain this again...this is my experience and other UK nurses on here ..and was confirmed in court.

Ward insulin is in a bottle that is "multi use" ...it's a stock drug ...it doesn't come in single dose vials. So every time a baby is prescribed insulin you get the fridge keys and draw some out and put the vial back in fridge ...you don't record in a book who has taken insulin and how much.
The bottle remains in the fridge for weeks / months until it's empty or the use buy date is up.
The amount used in babies is tiny ..no one would even notice any missing.
Basically if you had access you could take a small syringe fill it with insulin , put the vial back in the fridge and no one would ever know

 

[Ruthbullock]

Has anyone looked into other specialists on neonatal air embolism and seen if they have commented on the case?

 

[Ruthbullock]

The other more recent paper is by Dr Gim Tan- I would love to know the differences between the 2 papers. I’m not great at medical terminology so couldn’t even attempt to spot differences in the papers. I do however from personal medical experiences slightly understand (in no way fully)- the difference in reactions between arteries and veins.

Loading…

www.nejm.org

 

[Parker Knoll]

The MSM headlines are insane at the moment. It’s also been (as I’m local ) reported on regional news extensively which doesn’t help.
I think things will quieten down now for a good while. Her “ team “ can slope off back under their rocks and wait for a decision which in reality will take months if not years. No amount of press conferences will make anything move faster.
New charges are also a possibility.
Personally I don’t think this will get back to court but that’s just my opinion.

 

[mrC]

all hospitals are supposed to keep exact records of things like that but in practice, most of them dont

 

[JosieJo]

all hospitals are supposed to keep exact records of things like that but in practice, most of them dont

Hospital policy does not require any exact records as its not a "controlled drug" ...in this instance their insulin storage was as it should be at the COCH
I think they are going to look at this in the thirwall enquiry though to see if it requires changing

 

[Sweeper2000]

a picture of a vial of the type used by lucy letby by the cps. actual evidence used during the trial.

Lucy Letby: Parents asked for transfer before alleged poisoning, jury told

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of trying to kill a twin boy by giving him insulin, a court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

there is approx 1000 units of insulin per 10 ml so 100 units per single ml. on a nicu babies wouldnt receive high doses of insulin so plenty would be left after opening a single bottle.

"Asked how much insulin would be needed to cause the low blood sugar levels in Child L, Prof Hindmarsh said: "I have taken quite a conservative view of this, but I would suggest you could add somewhere in the region of 10 units of insulin to a bag, that would be sufficient to produce the hypoglycaemic effect that was measured in the sample.

"Vials of insulin contain 100 units per millilitre, so the volumes we're talking about are quite small and not noticeable on a routine stock check.

"When added to infusion bags you wouldn't notice a change in volume within the bag, nor because insulin is a clear solution."

Lucy Letby: Baby's blood sugar dangerously low, trial told

Lucy Letby is accused of adding insulin to an infant's feed bag, the nurse's trial hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

its NOT A CONTROLLED drug so WASTAGE ISNT RECORDED but presumably would always be in whole mls maybe even half a bottle or so. no one would know if a few units had been syphoned off.

here is a picture of a ten ml vial with hand for scale. remember there is 1000 units of insulin in one bottle so its a tiny tiny amount of liquid said to be used in the cases.

 

[mrC]

of course there isnt just the new medical evidence there is prosecution witneses telling different stories at the inquiry to the the ones they told at the trial making them unreliable witnesses

 

[Sweeper2000]

you will have to forgive me but i wanted to post something i know is definitely aggravating, enjoy.

 

[CatsnChickens]

I'm a research scientist. Talented statisticians can make any data say what you want it to say depending on the calculations they choose to perform.

As the saying goes there are lies damn lies and statistics.

 

[mrC]

what i could never understand is why 7 deaths were suspicious and the other 12 weren't

 

[Sweeper2000]

what i could never understand is why 7 deaths were suspicious and the other 12 weren't

I think long story short is that these babies should have survived. There is a high likelihood of survival for babies over a certain gestation like over 90% If I remember correctly. Thus they are suspicious deaths. There were no indications that they were likely to perish and then they did following no known pathway to that end. Think that's right.

The other ones were all medically explainable.