UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

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  • #121
A professor of neonatal medicine at UCL? A scientific advisor to the Canadian neonatal network? The head of neonatology at Tokyo’s national centre for child health and development?

How are they not experts?
They are commenting on a medico-legal matter.

They are not, to my knowledge, accepted as experts as far as the British legal system is concerned. Yet they still feel the need to tell the entire British legal system that after a ten month trial it has locked up a totally innocent woman.

Again, I will point out that Dr Lee is promoting a defence theory which LL's defence has already accepted, at trial no less, as being incorrect. At best that makes him incompetent as he simply hasn't read the background material. How can anyone accept anything these people say?
 
  • #122
But it’s not about the court or whether they could testify. It’s about a group of experts coming together and putting their necks on the line to say “yes, there were other reasonable explanations” contrary to what was asserted at the trial.

If that’s true, then it’s not going to be difficult to find another expert who’s unconnected to it all who’s also willing to state the same. Obviously we all know the defence didn’t call its only medical expert, for reasons unknown. BUT, if they had have, if they’d called three of their own experts who said what Lee et al have said, how would that have influenced the outcome in this case? That’s the point, right?

I feel the same as all of you about the press conference. For me, it was in poor taste, I’m not a huge fan of mark mcdonald, and I personally can’t stand Davis or Dorries. But I’m just looking at the facts. To me, these people from various countries with decent credentials seem legit.

I can’t for the life of me understand why any of them would speak out like this if they thought they might be assisting in freeing a serial killer of babies. These people have dedicated their lives to saving babies and improving outcomes for them.

The same old accusations of bias can be thrown at Evans. But there’s not point. Everyone is speaking what they personally believe to be true. And at the end of the day the truth is all that matters.
There is so much wrong with Lee's approach that I don't even know where to begin.

If there's bias that means the whole process lacks objectivity. If Lee has pre-determined that none of these babies suffered death or collapse because of air-embolism, you have to find something else, that is not an objective process.

They are not putting their necks on the line if they are not realistically going to testify to their opinions, or if they are proposing health conditions or medical care that were already known about and acknowledged, but discounted by trial experts. It's not exactly controversial, as saying deliberate harm is.

Why do you need 14 experts from around the world in the same specialty, to look at one baby per pair? That is not going to draw together important connections between cases, where there are similarities (such as bleeding swollen throats, one is not as extraordinary as four or five for example), and no one is going to feel ultimately responsible for her fate, reporting on one baby, as the trial experts must have felt. The experts at trial also dedicated their lives to saving babies, as did the doctors who worked alongside Letby, and it is far more onerous on them, and requires far greater care, diligence and certainty to testify under oath that someone deliberately caused harm and death to babies, with the consequences of that.

The defence actually had two experts they didn't call. To think that all seven of the prosecution's experts, from differing and more relevant fields, got it wrong and somehow colluded in mistaken diagnoses so that the case fit like a glove with all the patterns of her shifts and her fraudulent record-keeping, and with the consultants' suspicions, is just ludicrous. MOO
 
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  • #123
But I’m just looking at the facts. To me, these people from various countries with decent credentials seem legit.
It is a fact that APS was dismissed in court as playing any role in the death. Both sides accepted this fact and LL's defence KC even acknowledged that he accepted that fact and did not intend to challenge it.

Why then, is Dr Lee now saying that it is a perfectly plausible explanation?

Dr Lee is NOT an expert haematologist, as far as I understand. Dr Kinsey is an expert haematologist and gave evidence that APS did not play a part in the death.

You are keen to have it accepted that these "experts" should be listened to yet you seem to be failing to address the question as to why Dr Lee's opinion is more valid than that of Dr Kinsey who is an actual expert in the field whereas he is not!
 
  • #124
Thats fair enough only thing is Dr Marn has found no evidence of a thrombus and no doubt it was well looked for. entire point of my posts is that Dr Lee suggested it not knowing it was seemingly ruled out and tested for. There is evidence suggestive of but not conclusive proof of air embolus but seemingly none of thrombus. logic might dictate that air embolus is more likely especially as symptomatically the two are the same. I m almost certain that a thrombus would show on the scans checked by Dr arthurs and Dr Marn as well.

It is not the thrombus per se.
For the whole day no consultant neonatologist had seen the baby; just the interns who could not establish the line.
This is horrible.
 
  • #125
It is not the thrombus per se.
For the whole day no consultant neonatologist had seen the baby; just the interns who could not establish the line.
This is horrible.

Wrong. There is no such role as an "intern" in the NHS. Describing something as "horrible" is not factual. Its your own emotional opinion. One which I don't agree with. JMO
 
  • #126
I recommend watching a video called 'don't be fooled by Lucy Letby's slick PR campaign' uploaded yesterday on YouTube channel 'Back to the Science'. She (Dr Oliver) commented on Dr Lee's new paper on a site called PubPeer and he responded to her comments. PubPeer - Vascular Air Embolism in Neonates: A Literature Review

JFYI she often gives a shout out to @CS2C 's channel for the transcripts he's put up.

JMO
 
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  • #127
yeh i was listening to dr lee again and would love to hear any pro's opinions on his claims that "if this was in canada, the hospital would be shut down" claim? im trying to gauge if he bolstered the defences claim of massive hospital failings and to me as a layman its unclear but I still have lots of reasons to assume the prosecution has the better hand. even with what dr lee says I can't place the hospital at fault or doubt that the system failed to address any failings.

I really don't like the conference approach at all, one might think out of respect for the families it was done quietly.
The unit was downgraded, which we all know. It was subsequently closed and moved to a new building- the timing of the planning applications might be a new rabbit hole to go down as it would indicate when the building was deemed substandard, knowing that in the UK it will also have taken a lot of prior admin work before submitting the changes for planning approval.
 
  • #128
I recommend watching a video called 'don't be fooled by Lucy Letby's slick PR campaign' uploaded yesterday on YouTube channel 'Back to the Science'. She (Dr Oliver) commented on Dr Lee's new paper on a site called PubPeer and he responded to her comments. PubPeer - Vascular Air Embolism in Neonates: A Literature Review

JFYI she often gives a shout out to @CS2C 's channel for the transcripts he's put up.

JMO
I got five minutes into that video and had to pull up the papers she was referring to- Dr Johan Smiths paper was where I went. She refers to the fact he talks about a baby with a rash and an air embolism in the paper (so Dr Lee is incorrect as there has been a case of rash/embolism happening- which is true- but not related to this case)- the parts she missed out was that the rash was 4 days before the major collapse and the requirement for resuscitation.
 
  • #129
Baby A's case was examined by a pathologist, a forensic pathologist, a professor of haematology and a professor of radiology. Doctors with relevant specialisms actively looking at his death forearmed with the knowledge of his mother's condition and knowledge of the tiny clot on the end of his line, in his liver. The experts already discounted the thrombus conclusion reached by Lee & co, so it is not new evidence.

Why do you say it's worrying that we, on a forum, dismiss a neonatologist's determination from reviewing the medical records that these experts were wrong?

Lee himself wrote "a thrombus likely migrated to an artery supplying the brain stem" without any evidence for that at post mortem, yet he claims his process was "based on the medical evidence".

Dr Marnerides found air in the baby's brain which got there during life, evidenced by associated bleeding found with it, yet Lee doesn't explain either this, or Prof Arthurs radiological findings of air.
Yet in the inquiry itself- Dr Jo Mcpartland a pathologist from Alder Hey states there was no evidence of an air embolism for baby A
 
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  • #130
Professor Neena Modi (Imperial College)


An expert lobbying for Lucy Letby’s release was in charge of the professional body that carried out a flawed review into the neo-natal unit where the nurse murdered babies. [...]

Yesterday a source claimed Professor Modi was not a ‘disinterested party’ in the Letby case.

It is alleged she has a ‘personal interest’ in suggesting poor medical care, and not the convicted killer nurse, was responsible for the baby deaths because ‘she was in charge of the RCPCH when it conducted the discredited review’.


'Free Lucy Letby' expert linked to flawed review of hospital baby unit


From her witness statement to the Inquiry, dated July 2024, before Dr Lee obtained the babies' medical records and trial expert witness statements, and convened his panel:

It is my opinion, based on my experience of having worked in neonatal intensive care in tertiary referral centres for almost 40 years that plausible alternative explanations exist for certain of the deaths and sudden deteriorations of the babies at the Countess of Chester, but the cases were not investigated adequately at the time and subsequently, and this may have had an impact on the exploration of causality during the trial.

INQ0102753 – Witness statement of Professor Neena Modi, dated 08/07/2024 | The Thirlwall Inquiry


It's not an impartial, unbiased stance, is it?

Neither is this -

Dr Shoo Lee:

After Letby’s appeal was rejected, Lee spoke to her legal team ...

“What they said to me was that you have literally got to find a different person or thing that caused the death,” said Lee. “And I asked ‘So what’s the chances?’ They said ‘none’, because it’s going to be very hard to prove anything now. ‘We’ve had our chance, and unless you can come up with something that is totally different, she’ll be in jail for the rest of her life’. And I said, ‘Well, this is not fair, because the evidence that was used to convict her, in my opinion, wasn’t quite right.’”

He asked if he could examine the 35,000 pages of medical evidence to assess whether it was “faulty or good”.


My research was misused to convict Lucy Letby — so I did my own inquiry
You are correct in the respect that Professor Modi will most certainly be an interested party- that doesn’t mean her opinion is flawed- in fact many would say that is more reason to listen to her opinion as it alters with the facts available as they evolve, rather than standing firm, allowing herself to be criticised for it by people like yourself.
 
  • #131
Professor Kinsey didn’t participate in the inquiry and I have to say whilst trying to search out answers to others queries- her testimony in court was hardly reliable:
Prof Kinsey told the court the skin discolorations observed on Child A had "cemented" her concerns that he had suffered an air embolus.
She said it was a very "rare" condition and that she had not seen it herself, but had read about it in medical literature.
"It was a pretty stark description of what sounded to be air embolus to me," she said.

What medical literature is she proclaiming to have read about it in- people have been searching for years for a medical paper to back that up and not found one yet- according to the article it was a 1989 article she had just happened across in the BMJ.

She also testified in court:
She told the court that no blood disorder would account for the sudden deterioration suffered by Child A.

From this comment, you must surely draw the conclusion that child A did have a potential blood disorder, and not that she said it wasn’t possible.

 
  • #132
  • #133
I got five minutes into that video and had to pull up the papers she was referring to- Dr Johan Smiths paper was where I went. She refers to the fact he talks about a baby with a rash and an air embolism in the paper (so Dr Lee is incorrect as there has been a case of rash/embolism happening- which is true- but not related to this case)- the parts she missed out was that the rash was 4 days before the major collapse and the requirement for resuscitation.

No she didn't miss that. Case 1 in the paper describes a decompensation after starting IV fluids, with transient skin discoloration and x ray evidence of air within the chest, from which the baby temporarily recovered. The baby had a second decompensation several days later from which the baby ultimately died. This may or may not have been a sequelae of the first decompensation - meaning that though the baby temporarily recovered from the initial insult he may have died from injury sustained during that insult.
 
  • #134
  • #135
No she didn't miss that. Case 1 in the paper describes a decompensation after starting IV fluids, with transient skin discoloration and x ray evidence of air within the chest, from which the baby temporarily recovered. The baby had a second decompensation several days later from which the baby ultimately died. This may or may not have been a sequelae of the first decompensation - meaning that though the baby temporarily recovered from the initial insult he may have died from injury sustained during that insult.
Her reference was to disregard the fact that there had never been a case of air embolus and rash- the rash was 4 days prior not at the moment of collapse. If she had shared a transcript of her video I would have happily shared it with you
ETA and like she said he has not come forwards to disagree with Dr Lee- do you naively believe no journalists have contacted him. Perhaps they haven’t, but I’m sure they will do in the near future as it’s now been thrown out there- so we can wait and see what his opinion is. The reality is doctors don’t understand or know it all, different medical professionals disagree- and that is where we all come unstuck in this case.
 
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  • #136
Her reference was to disregard the fact that there had never been a case of air embolus and rash- the rash was 4 days prior not at the moment of collapse. If she had shared a transcript of her video I would have happily shared it with you
I listened to the video. The case report (of case 1) describes a decompensation - but not a collapse - associated with intracardiac air - air embolism.
 
  • #137
Yet in the inquiry itself- Dr Jo Mcpartland a pathologist from Alder Hey states there was no evidence of an air embolism for baby A
Yes, she said:

A. Yes. This was Child A, which Dr Shukla performed so I went into his office and asked what he thought and this is what he said, and I am aware that that is a classical postmortem sign of air embolism, is froth in the vessels or the heart. And I wrote that back to Mr Harvey. I would stress that we thought the interest in air embolism was all because this child had a long line inserted just prior to the collapse and there had been concern about the line, they were going to pull it out and then the child arrested. So that's what we thought was the reasoning behind this questioning, not that there had been deliberate external administration of air.

Q. If he asked you the question: is there any evidence of deliberate external administration of air, how would you have answered that? What would you have said to that?

A. Well, that --

Q. Is that within your expertise or not?

A. That would have alerted us the fact that this was a concern of a criminal case and that this needed a much more in-depth and forensic pathology opinion. So if he had said that to us, we wouldn't have made a brief email response; it would have been apparent that that needed a very different approach.



Q. You tell us at paragraph 5: "[Your] NHS role at Alder Hey includes provision of paediatric surgical pathology service to the hospital and a perinatal pathology service to a number of referring obstetric units." And: "In addition to [your] NHS duties [you] perform coronial, paediatric postmortem examinations for a number of Coroners, including paediatric forensic postmortem examinations undertaken jointly with a forensic pathologist." My question: why is it necessary to conduct paediatric postmortem examinations in combination with a forensic pathologist?

A. Well, if there is a suspicion that criminal activity may have led to the death or in some types of traumatic death where we might need the assistance of someone with forensic expertise then we perform the postmortem jointly and the role of the forensic pathologist is to consider matters of forensic importance and particularly those relating to injuries, and the role of the paediatric pathologist is to consider natural causes of death and look at growth and development and other medical conditions.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk...024/11/Thirlwall-Inquiry-12-November-2024.pdf
 
  • #138
I listened to the video. The case report (of case 1) describes a decompensation - but not a collapse - associated with intracardiac air - air embolism.
Please read the article it isn’t long- the rash (the basis of “the scientist” if that’s even a job role) is what she claims puts into disrepute Dr Lee stating he never saw a case of a rash with an air embolism. The rash was 4 days prior to the babies collapse and resuscitation and it also wasn’t seen at a time that is classed as decompensation. In fact the baby was given fluids and was fine 10 minutes later. The baby was also found to have an air embolism in the heart when he passed 4 days later- how is this an accurate comparison to baby A. Let’s also presume they were obviously accurately monitoring rashes etc- then it backs up what Dr Lee said- there was no rash with the air embolism.
 
  • #139
Yes, she said:

A. Yes. This was Child A, which Dr Shukla performed so I went into his office and asked what he thought and this is what he said, and I am aware that that is a classical postmortem sign of air embolism, is froth in the vessels or the heart. And I wrote that back to Mr Harvey. I would stress that we thought the interest in air embolism was all because this child had a long line inserted just prior to the collapse and there had been concern about the line, they were going to pull it out and then the child arrested. So that's what we thought was the reasoning behind this questioning, not that there had been deliberate external administration of air.

Q. If he asked you the question: is there any evidence of deliberate external administration of air, how would you have answered that? What would you have said to that?

A. Well, that --

Q. Is that within your expertise or not?

A. That would have alerted us the fact that this was a concern of a criminal case and that this needed a much more in-depth and forensic pathology opinion. So if he had said that to us, we wouldn't have made a brief email response; it would have been apparent that that
she also states later on Mr Harvey tried to throw her under the bus- I struggle to understand your defiance to see why some of the practitioners didn’t reach accurate conclusions due to others negligence, or in possibly acts of self preservation due to their own negligence. If these things hadn’t have been happening the court case and evidence would have all been much clearer.
 
  • #140
Please read the article it isn’t long- the rash (the basis of “the scientist” if that’s even a job role) is what she claims puts into disrepute Dr Lee stating he never saw a case of a rash with an air embolism. The rash was 4 days prior to the babies collapse and resuscitation and it also wasn’t seen at a time that is classed as decompensation. In fact the baby was given fluids and was fine 10 minutes later. The baby was also found to have an air embolism in the heart when he passed 4 days later- how is this an accurate comparison to baby A. Let’s also presume they were obviously accurately monitoring rashes etc- then it backs up what Dr Lee said- there was no rash with the air embolism.
I'm actually very familiar with this article as it was part of a literature review I did for my work last year. The air in his chest was seen on his first day of life, directly following the transient skin discoloration. He stabilized initially but then began to decomoensate after 24 hours. Later imaging was consistent with him having previously experienced air embolism. But he did not die until day of life 3, after suffering a pulmonary hemorrhage. He did not die of air embolism. The air embolism resolved. The damage caused was left behind and that damage is likely what led to his fatal pulmonary hemorrhage.

"Case 1

A male infant with a birth weight of 1 770 g was born by
normal vaginal delivery at 31 weeks' gestation. The infant
manifested significant respiratory distress from birth. Initial
chest radiograph confirmed severe respiratory distress
syndrome (RDS). A peripheral intravenous infusion was
inserted and infusion of Neolyte (Intramed, South Africa) was
initiated. The infant was intubated and transported to the
neonatal intensive care unit for mechanical ventilation. En
route, the infant's skin turned blue-black with blotchy redness.
The feet were extremely pale. The attending physician thought
that this was a 'reaction' to the intravenous fluid and replaced
it with 0.2% saline and glucose 5%. Over the next 10 minutes
central perfusion returned to normal, but the hands and feet
remained bluish. At this time an umbilical venous line was
inserted. No air could be withdrawn. The infant's condition
stabilised. Over the next 4 hours his mean blood pressure
varied between 30 and 48 mmHg and his pulse rate between
150 and 165/min. He received surfactant treatment and routine
intravenous penicillin. An anteroposterior chest radiograph did.
not reveal the classic picture of a pneumothorax or
pneumopericardium. However, an area of hyperlucency was
noted behind/within the left cardiac border (Fig.1). An
anterolateral chest radiograph revealed the presence of air in
the retrosternal area, anterior to the heart, as well as a
hyperlucent area within the heart border. In the retrocardiac
ORIGINAL ARTICLES
Fig. 1. Anteroposterior chest radiograph: No evidence for
pneumothorax or pneumopericardium. An area of hyperlucency is
noted behind/within the left cardiac border.
area a triangular shadow, representing aerated lung or free air,
was present. A diagnosis of a pneumomediastinum and
intracardiac air was entertained. The infant's clinical condition
stabilised, but within 24 hours of birth he developed
generalised myoclonic convulsive movements of all four limbs
and was treated with phenobarbitone. The cranial ultrasound
scan showed striking evidence of cerebral air embolism (Fig. 2),
as manifested by an echogenic density in the right lateral
Fig. 2. Cranial ultrasonography evidence of cerebral air embolisation.
An echo genic density in the right lateral ventricle created acoustic
shadowing with no through transmission.
December 2003, Vol. 93, No. 12 SAMJ
ventricle, which created an acoustic shadow with no through
transmission.' A C-reactive protein and a blood culture were
negative. On day 3 of life, the infant developed generalised
oedema and a metabolic acidosis, followed by a severe acute
pulmonary haemorrhage. Despite extensive resuscitation
efforts the infant died. An autopsy was refused."
 
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