UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Marantz4250b]

That’s not even true. The rose box contained a pristine copy of her first ever handover sheet. Everything else was either in the shopping bag under the bed, the new shopping bag (the Ibiza bag), or in various other places (the bin bag, the cardboard box). Is there any actual evidence other than a misleading metro article suggesting she separated out the harmed babies and kept all their documents together?

That's all beside the point, quite frankly. She had 257 pieces of confidential paperwork containing sensitive medical information relating to babies and their families. That doesn't happen by accident; it's not a case of her constantly forgetting to leave them at work, indeed, it's fairly well established that she fished at least one of them out of a confidential waste bin! She intentionally kept them and intended to take them home, there is simply no other reasonable explanation.

We did all this thousands of posts ago when it all first came up at trial; I myself suggested that she's just inadvertently taken them home and, yes, other nurses on here had given examples of finding the odd one or two at home when clearing out our moving house. Having several hundred in her possession, which she had clearly taken with her over multiple house moves and even leaving some at her parents place, though, is just insane. That's not a mistake. That is nothing other than intentional.

And then there's the shredder she lied about......that bloody shredder which everyone on here thought we'd head the last of!! The cardboard box was actually the box the shredder actually came in and was labelled "keep".

If we leave aside all the murdery stuff she did and assume that for some reason it came to the attention of the hospital authorities that she had that amount of paperwork in her private possession, scattered amongst multiple rooms - multiple houses even - that, of itself, would have been a serious disciplinary matter and no conscientious nurse would have allowed let that situation exist. It would have given very serious cause to question why she did it, imv.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I’m not interested in going round with it either. I’m more interested in evaluating what’s being said now, because it’s unprecedented for medical professionals to come out en masse to question a verdict like this. Whatever Letby or Myers conceded in court is irrelevant if the actual truth is something else.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Written-Closing-Submission-of-Family-Group-2-and-3-7-March-2025.pdf

It isn't "something else", though. She's guilty.

Please read the above link. The "expert" panel gets pretty much eviscerated in this statement. Not least because they are being extremely selective about what they are presenting - presumably knowing that they can't be cross examined in their own presser and they obviously aren't under oath! And, once again, they point out that Dr Lee is presenting "evidence" that was dismissed at trial - facts that even LL's defence and her herself did not dispute!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Just these ones? Or more? Because the prosecution said they thought more, only couldn’t prove…

She kept 257. That's the figure quoted in evidence. I recall it very distinctly as it's a number which crops up for me professionally (in a totally unrelated field) from time to time.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Here is my concern, if she had handover sheets of many kids she was searching for, it still doesn’t explain why.

“Why” might be different. Supposedly Lucy, being not socially quite aware, wanted to write a bestseller about a nurse’s life? A romance, perhaps? Then it could have been the reason to keep the books and the information about the patients and their parents.

It could have been simple OCD/hoarding, but I am not sure. It likely belongs into the imaginary world.

I actually agree with you here; I think that she's a very disturbed person and I suspect that her internal reasons for keeping them were many. I think that her appreciation of reality and social norms are significantly different to 99% of the rest of the world. There probably isn't a single reason answer to why she did a lot of the things she did.

Mainly, though, keeping those papers is related to her being a baby murderer.

LL is a complicated person and, like I said hundreds of messages ago, there will be people building entire careers out of this case for a very long time to come. That wouldn't be the case if the answers were easy.

 

[Marantz4250b]

An “engineer” who received an honour for developing the gold standard in modelling and care for blood sugar issues in adults, along with a separate protocol for pre-term infants given their different physiology. He’s not qualified enough to have a legitimate opinion on this?

Unless and until a court accepts them as an Expert Witness, we'll never know.

All of these people could have come forward, or could have been approached by her defence, years ago. None of that happened and it is entirely improper for them to be making pronouncements on this case, where they are essentially accusing her defence and the entire legal system of incompetence (or worse for the Uber-Conspiracists out there) when they are not making themselves available for challenge as they could have to in a court of law.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Letby had plenty of time to decide what she wanted to say about the handovers, she was asked about them multiple times in police interviews and at her trial.

What you are suggesting is just nonsensical. We can only work with the evidence we have. I find it pointless inventing scenarios which Letby herself has never offered as explanation. She changed her story continuously and her narrative based on the evidence she gave ,still doesn't make sense.

That's because she was lying.

JMO

Precisely!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Great and we’re back to closing the circle. Didn’t happen in court so nobody should care if it looks increasingly like the jury was misled.

It doesn't, though!

 

[WaneLyrical]

Ok cool, I’ll dip out then. If the attitude is that I’m being contrarian because I didn’t get the result “I wanted” then I have no idea what to say. We’re talking about the deaths of newborn babies here. I’m not a “supporter” of Letby, I’m someone who’s not willing to simply disregard the opinions of people I hold to the same standard as those who gave evidence during the trial. I’m never going to agree it’s fine for vulnerable infants to be lying around sewage just because the rest of the NHS has crumbled beyond recognition, it’s all fine until it’s not. In this case we seem able to disregard the spike in stillbirths, and disregard the spike in newborn non-murder deaths, because there’s nothing to see here! It’s all more likely that someone woke up one morning suddenly a psychopath.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Well with the insulin, the recent report suggested hypoglycaemia happens in 40% of pre term babies, the first baby’s problems were effectively exacerbated by administering blouses of sugar instead of through an iv. And for the second one, the correct protocol was followed and once the glucose was eventually increased to 15% the hypo resolved. Myers did challenge on whether protocol was followed, and for the second one it would have relied on multiple random bags being poisoned in advance and all given specifically to this baby. Plus we have no idea how much insulin they needed to contain given the fact that much of it would have adhered to the tubing.

And yes there were unexplained deaths. But nobody was overly concerned about that at the time, including the pathologist. Or the multiple reviews that were carried out. Suggesting it’s acceptable to not find a cause of death, that to have unexplained deaths is not itself suspicious. So while we can hone in on this handful of unexplained deaths and say it must’ve been murder, because the probability of Letby being there all the time is too difficult to fathom, without knowing the wider context of how often this actually happens in the failing NNU’s up and down the country, then we can’t know the true significance.

And therein lies the problem for me, if this was actually a result of a badly managed ward that had suffered a loss of experience, where someone as inexperienced as Letby was considered one of the better ones, then the actual root problem might not have been established, and the inquiry is looking at the wrong thing.

is that the report from the new panel? in which case i would refer to my earlier post that the highest levels of nursing authority hve checked it and it seems sounds, and on its way there was checked by inbetweens as well. I am cofident the treating doctors knew what they were doing as they have not been cririticised by our quhtorities have they? with a few exceptions raised by dr bohin.

 

[Sweeper2000]

i will take that report seriously if its accepted by the courts. up until then its not even new evidence.

 

[joltz]

Ok cool, I’ll dip out then. If the attitude is that I’m being contrarian because I didn’t get the result “I wanted” then I have no idea what to say. We’re talking about the deaths of newborn babies here. I’m not a “supporter” of Letby, I’m someone who’s not willing to simply disregard the opinions of people I hold to the same standard as those who gave evidence during the trial. I’m never going to agree it’s fine for vulnerable infants to be lying around sewage just because the rest of the NHS has crumbled beyond recognition, it’s all fine until it’s not. In this case we seem able to disregard the spike in stillbirths, and disregard the spike in newborn non-murder deaths, because there’s nothing to see here! It’s all more likely that someone woke up one morning suddenly a psychopath.

You are adding things for dramatic effect, which is not really going to wash in this forum.

Babies weren't "lying around in sewage" and I don't think Letby just woke up one morning and decided to be a psychopath either. She's obviously a very disturbed individual. Her behaviour was so far beyond what we would class as normal. Thirlwall has offered further glimpses into her world, and there was clearly multiple red flags which I believe should have stopped her ever becoming a nurse.

JMO

 

[JosieJo]

Ok cool, I’ll dip out then. If the attitude is that I’m being contrarian because I didn’t get the result “I wanted” then I have no idea what to say. We’re talking about the deaths of newborn babies here. I’m not a “supporter” of Letby, I’m someone who’s not willing to simply disregard the opinions of people I hold to the same standard as those who gave evidence during the trial. I’m never going to agree it’s fine for vulnerable infants to be lying around sewage just because the rest of the NHS has crumbled beyond recognition, it’s all fine until it’s not. In this case we seem able to disregard the spike in stillbirths, and disregard the spike in newborn non-murder deaths, because there’s nothing to see here! It’s all more likely that someone woke up one morning suddenly a psychopath.

Just to say ...the mess of the NHS is not OK...it's just that the information in the inquiry is not a suprise to many ..definitely not to me ...and I don't see a direct link to these deaths from poor care....babies don't suddenly collapse due to poor care

 

[JosieJo]

Lucy Letby inquiry chair rejects calls to pause investigation

Lucy Letby inquiry chair rejects calls to pause investigation

Lawyers for jailed nurse had argued there was ‘overwhelming’ evidence undermining guilty verdicts

www.theguardian.com

 

[JosieJo]

Thirlwall Inquiry will not be paused, chair rules | Nursing Times

Read about Lady Justice Thirlwall's formal response to calls to pause her inquiry into the circumstances around the crimes of Lucy Letby.

www.nursingtimes.net

 

[May72031]

I’m never going to agree it’s fine for vulnerable infants to be lying around sewage just because the rest of the NHS has crumbled beyond recognition, it’s all fine until it’s not. In this case we seem able to disregard the spike in stillbirths, and disregard the spike in newborn non-murder deaths, because there’s nothing to see here! It’s all more likely that someone woke up one morning suddenly a psychopath.

I don't think I've heard anybody claim babies lying "around sewage" is OK. There is no evidence, however, that "sewage" played any role in any deaths at COCH.

What "spike in newborn non-murder deaths" are you referring to?

Not even sure what you last sentence is supposed to mean.

 

[Tortoise]

Letter from Bhandal Law to Lady Justice Thirlwall dated 17 March 2025 | The Thirlwall Inquiry

Examining the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital and their implications following the trial, and subsequent convictions, of former neonatal nurse Lucy Letby of murder and attempted murder of babies at the hospital.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk

 

[Parker Knoll]

One would have thought they would get that letter signed off by a senior partner at the very least !
SMH.

 

[Furore]

A great BBC article showing internal emails and memos in a timeline between medics and managers. Lucy Letby: Emails and private notes reveal inside story of hospital struggle to stop killer nurse - BBC News

Also the email Letby sent to everyone on the unit prior to returning to the Unit in the final May 17 is pretty damning to herself - there was no full and thorough investigation IMO!

 

[Parker Knoll]

That’s so powerful in that format.

 

[Marantz4250b]

A great BBC article showing internal emails and memos in a timeline between medics and managers. Lucy Letby: Emails and private notes reveal inside story of hospital struggle to stop killer nurse - BBC News

Also the email Letby sent to everyone on the unit prior to returning to the Unit in the final May 17 is pretty damning to herself - there was no full and thorough investigation IMO!

I'm sure that that email from her - or one remarkably similar - has been posted here before.

Those words are just dripping with narcissistic self-agrandisement, in my view. They are utterly self-serving and attention seeking!

If you've just been wrongly investigated for mistreating babies in your care then I'd think you'd want to keep it under the radar as much as possible, quite frankly. Why on earth would you put it on an "official" footing with everyone else particularly as it's probably unlikely that many people knew the full story in any event?

As mentioned just a few posts ago - I think that her sense of reality and social awareness is strikingly off somewhere along the line!