UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[May72031]

I will be following along and I do expect all her convictions to be overturned, there are other convictions in UK courts that I don't think are sound, and I continue to follow them for years in the hope that the conviction is squashed or a new trial granted such as Michael Stone, 25 years post his convictions and he is still fighting his miscarriage of justice IMO

What basis is there for thinking all of her convictions are going to be overturned? I hear this a lot from Letbyists, and quite a few of them were adamant that she would have been released already. Mark McDonald believes Beverley Allitt is innocent. Do you believe Allitt was a miscarriage of justice, Joe?

 

[Jules2021]

What basis is there for thinking all of her convictions are going to be overturned? I hear this a lot from Letbyists, and quite a few of them were adamant that she would have been released already. Mark McDonald believes Beverley Allitt is innocent. Do you believe Allitt was a miscarriage of justice, Joe?

Blimey, is there anyone he concedes is actually guilty at this point?!

 

[katydid23]

I think it fine to discuss evidence from the trial,

I think if your baby is born weeks before it is due it is seriously ill,

You may 'think' that, but it is not true that a premature baby is ' seriously ill.' The baby is just premature and needs time to mature, and needs conditions similar to 'in utero' conditions. So they put them in little protective pod like beds, monitor their vitals and temperature, change their diapers and cuddle them. They are not ' seriously ill'--- they are just not fully developed yet. Some have lungs that are not fully formed so they may need oxygen supplements for awhile.

it needs constant full time monitoring and observation, yes most do survive and thrive, but to get to that stage they have to be provided huge amounts of medical intervention to keep them alive as they get stronger,

No, I think you are over estimating the type of care they need. COC did not take in the most seriously ill patients. They did not need 'huge amounts of medical intervention. ' These babies were not critical care, fragile preemies on the edge.

That is why this case was so baffling at first, because these babies were not expected to collapse and die. They were all considered healthy with high probability of being sent home soon.

We shall see how strong her convictions are as she has all the time in the world to challenge them, we shall see if opinions change, experts come forward with new interpretations of the evidence,

The problem for Nurse Lucy is she was caught out at trial, for falsifying her medical logs, trying to distance herself from some of the victims.She was caught writing incorrect details about which nurseries she was in and what she was doing at critical times.

No one is going to be able to correct that for her. She falsified medical notes and observations and there was evidence proving she was lying. The jurors probably decided that it showed guilt. So if they have to decide between which medical expert is telling the truth, they are probably going with the prosecution because there was no reason for her to lie about which nursery she was in, if she was innocent.

I will be following along and I do expect all her convictions to be overturned,

Really?

there are other convictions in UK courts that I don't think are sound, and I continue to follow them for years in the hope that the conviction is squashed or a new trial granted such as Michael Stone, 25 years post his convictions and he is still fighting his miscarriage of justice IMO

 

[joltz]

I have looked at all the stats, premature babies die because they are premature many times, and by dint of only being premature, and I would think needing to be monitored 24 hours a day, in an incubator, hooked up to every device modern ,medicine has to keep pre term babies alive is the evidence of being on a knife edge, they were babies who should have still been in the womb,

Sorry but that's absolute rubbish. Are you medically trained at all, just wondering. These babies are not on a knife edge whatsoever. Where have you read this, where did you get this opinion from? Some of the babies in this case were ready to go home. Some just needed help feeding and some breathing support, which is absolutely bog standard neonatal care ( or what Letby called "boring") the collapses of these babies had no medical explanations, the suffered sudden acute arrests and had an alarmingly unusual lack of response to normal resuscitation methods. The drs and consultants at COC deal with hundreds of babies every year, they know what is normal and what is not normal. What happened here is not normal. Neonatal care is not brain surgery. The staff know what drugs to administer and pretty much exactly the response that the baby will give. The survival rate for babies at 32 weeks and above is over 95%. The majority of these babies were in an improving condition and in the ones that did have issues, these issues were not the cause of their collapses or deaths. I think to believe what you have posted, you must really be telling yourself a pack of lies, in all honesty.

JMO

 

[joltz]

I don't agree, but we shall see how it plays out, I have more faith in an appellate issue being more successful than anything the CCRC will do

Michael Stone, Ben Geen, Lucy Letby. All McDonald clients and all guilty. Not sure how anyone can take this man seriously. He's the definition of a blithering buffoon crossed with a snake oil salesman.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Amen Joltz.

 

[JosieJo]

I read everything in real time but have only plucked up the courage to start posting now for some reason. I work in the NHS in England in a Karen Rees type role but am still aghast at the allowances made to all the Letby's and would never have handled things that way AT ALL (happy to provide references).

I agree I can't believe the parents were having meetings with the directors...and they were humouring them ..NHS policy is the member of staff can only be accompanied by union or another member of staff isn't it ? I just can't believe senior staff were taking phone calls from Mr letby ...unbelievable

 

[joe jones]

Sorry but that's absolute rubbish. Are you medically trained at all, just wondering. These babies are not on a knife edge whatsoever. Where have you read this, where did you get this opinion from? Some of the babies in this case were ready to go home. Some just needed help feeding and some breathing support, which is absolutely bog standard neonatal care ( or what Letby called "boring") the collapses of these babies had no medical explanations, the suffered sudden acute arrests and had an alarmingly unusual lack of response to normal resuscitation methods. The drs and consultants at COC deal with hundreds of babies every year, they know what is normal and what is not normal. What happened here is not normal. Neonatal care is not brain surgery. The staff know what drugs to administer and pretty much exactly the response that the baby will give. The survival rate for babies at 32 weeks and above is over 95%. The majority of these babies were in an improving condition and in the ones that did have issues, these issues were not the cause of their collapses or deaths. I think to believe what you have posted, you must really be telling yourself a pack of lies, in all honesty.

JMO

No need to get personal, we can post about different opinions without being rude, we can agree to disagree without getting irate,

 

[joe jones]

Blimey, is there anyone he concedes is actually guilty at this point?!

I never followed her case or trial very closely, so can't really know what evidence was presented against her

 

[joe jones]

What basis is there for thinking all of her convictions are going to be overturned? I hear this a lot from Letbyists, and quite a few of them were adamant that she would have been released already. Mark McDonald believes Beverley Allitt is innocent. Do you believe Allitt was a miscarriage of justice, Joe?

I also don't think we have to disparage others who have different opinions, I don't know what a Letbyist is, but it doesn't sound positive, I doubt the people who think it is a miscarriage of justice all have Exactly the same opinion about the evidence and trial, as the people who think she is guilt all think the same

 

[joe jones]

Michael Stone, Ben Geen, Lucy Letby. All McDonald clients and all guilty. Not sure how anyone can take this man seriously. He's the definition of a blithering buffoon crossed with a snake oil salesman.

I think it is incredibly difficult to find solicitors or barristers who will continue to fight for you years post conviction, it is not lucrative work and you are fighting an uphill battle with few rewards for many many years, unfortunately this means you don't get the best representation, but in their position they have to take what they can get

 

[Sweeper2000]

No need to get personal, we can post about different opinions without being rude, we can agree to disagree without getting irate,

My honest opinion is that if you are not very informed on this case then its a good idea to post questions here as many of the posters are old timers on the letby case and are indeed very well informed on it. Some may indeed post a reply to your questions or requests for information. It would also be a good idea to try and read up on it yourself and build a understanding of the trial and its contents which is quite a task by itself so I may recommend going through it on a charge by charge basis ie starting with baby A and then keeping it to baby A. That way hopefully you could over time build a complete picture of the letby case. Trust me it's extensive. Example I'm an old timer but I didn't fully inform myself about the enquiry afterwards.

I'm sorry if you feel hounded but this is something many feel passionate about. If I can be cheeky I'd say look at ruthbullocks input and check for the current radio silence from that poster.

"I never followed her case or trial very closely, so can't really know what evidence was presented against her"

The answer to this is as stated above, lots and lots of it, so much so it took months in court to go over. I really would recommend educating yourself in it and then posting informed and formulated questions or opinions otherwise you will get beaten down to put it bluntly or in other words bluntly beaten down with a blunt beater by a plank armed poster.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I also don't think we have to disparage others who have different opinions, I don't know what a Letbyist is, but it doesn't sound positive, I doubt the people who think it is a miscarriage of justice all have Exactly the same opinion about the evidence and trial, as the people who think she is guilt all think the same

I'll give you some tips on how to read the information you will see in the media. 1, as with all media don't believe everything you see. 2. Understand that allot what you see will be basically a shortened version of a broader base of information, example I've yet to see one article that gave a really in depth picture of any one case in particular let alone all of them. 3. There's plenty in the media that isn't accurate so preferably don't use it to build a picture of the trial. 4 plenty of articles make a bigger deal of things than they should recently we've seen plenty saying there's lots of doubt when there isn't not really.

FYI a letbyist is someone who thinks she is innocent and are often willing to die on that hill. Most if not all on this thread are opposed to that idea.

 

[Baileyboo]

No need to get personal, we can post about different opinions without being rude, we can agree to disagree without getting irate,

A common misconception is that all premature babies are on a knife edge and likely to die. People with experience of working in a NICU know its unusual for a baby to unexpectedly collapse and die. When this does happen its usually for an obvious reason and often a planned decision to withdraw care. This was why the consultants at Countess Chester became so concerned. The unexpected deaths/ collapses are the foundation of which the case against Letby was built. There is evidence pointing to deliberate harm which was tested during the court case.

 

[Anxala]

Michael Stone, Ben Geen, Lucy Letby. All McDonald clients and all guilty. Not sure how anyone can take this man seriously. He's the definition of a blithering buffoon crossed with a snake oil salesman.

^ It does make you wonder though what his game is? It's really not a good look for someone hoping to be perceived as a credible voice for justice gone (so-called) wrong, to say the absolute least. Arrogance can account for some of it, certainly, but what can possibly account for the level of sheer idiocy he's prepared to expose of himself in order to keep this bizarre flag flying?

I'm guessing there's money involved. That seems to be at the root of most of what drives his and this type of 'grandstanding'.

Arrogance, opportunism, money and a greedy, self-serving eye on the gullible prize.

The world we live in, sadly, where positions as regards justice are chosen based on what's in it for them, rather than what the evidence itself says.

 

[Tortoise]

I think she had a very poor defence, they could have attacked the DPP experts conclusions far more vigorously

You don't get to become a KC, and advocate in an extraordinarily high profile case, unless you are at the top of your field with exceptional skills. Becoming a King’s Counsel (KC) as a solicitor

KC status shows colleagues, courts and clients that you are an elite advocate, equipped to deal with the most complex cases and are considered a leader in your field.

To be awarded KC status is a recognition of excellence and one of the highest honours a solicitor can attain.

KC status has a long history, with the first Queen's Counsel (QC) being appointed in 1597 by Queen Elizabeth I.

In the four centuries since, only the best legal advocates in England and Wales have attained KC status – also known as Queen's Counsel during the reign of a queen.

Could you cite one example of where her KC didn't attack the prosecution experts conclusions vigorously?

 

[katydid23]

No need to get personal, we can post about different opinions without being rude, we can agree to disagree without getting irate,

True, but one cannot reliably give an opinion about medical cases when not a trained medical expert and state them as facts. Saying that premature babies are 'seriously ill' just because they are 5 weeks early is NOT factual. Then basing an opinion that a convicted killer must be released, upon non-experienced medical beliefs and stating them as facts is problematic. We have members here who are licensed medical professionals working in this field so that is who we rely upon for important information.

It is true that different opinions can be shared here but they cannot be set forth as if they are factual statements. And people get upset because Nurse Letby has been fairly and reliably convicted of some very gruesome murders upon innocent babies. Most of us are relieved that she is safely locked away from us now.

So when someone comes along and says she should be released, based upon erroneous medical opinions, some of us take on the challenge to refute those claims.

 

[katydid23]

I think it is incredibly difficult to find solicitors or barristers who will continue to fight for you years post conviction, it is not lucrative work and you are fighting an uphill battle with few rewards for many many years, unfortunately this means you don't get the best representation, but in their position they have to take what they can get

If it was true that Letby had an ineffective, inept defense counsel, and was convicted even though the evidence was faulty and thin, and she was innocent, then it would not be difficult to find reputable barristers to fight for her. IMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

Poor defence ?
The latest podcast from the DM with the two journalists who covered the case day in day out this week described Ben Myers in court during the trial of Letby as like “ a dog with a bone “
Any suggestion her defence was somehow incompetent or poor is staggeringly wide of the mark.
He had the unenviable task of defending Letby of multiple murder and attempted murder charges and he had success in some of the charges being returned as either not guilty or no verdict.
He via her advised her on whether or not to call experts and she didn’t want to put them on the stand.
She KNEW what would happen when they were cross examined.
That’s exactly why the appeal will go absolutely nowhere.
She’s got exactly what she deserves with McDonald steering this leaky ship.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I would just like to state clearly that there some exemptions from my earlier statements of being "plank armed" and of the beating type. You know who you are.

Name Begins with and in no particular order, a b,c,d,e,f,g h,I,j k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z. Apologies if I have missed anyone.