• #2,501
She was being directly asked if she knew about air embolisms.



"And what about air embolisms, Lucy, did you receive any training in relation to those?"



"No"



"Okay, were you aware of them"



"Not really, no"



But she was aware of them wasn't she, she had been filing datix about the potential for them happening. She answered questions about them in her training.



She knew exactly what an air embolism was and she knew about the dangers of them. It was part of her training. Every nurse knows about them.



Letbys evasiveness over perfectly reasonable questions is alarming.



And in regards to the bung. Letby is the source for this. She told the Dr, who told the nurse, who text Letby. It all goes back to Letby.

No other person involved saw a missing bung.

If Letby did apparently see a missing bung, why did she wait 7 days to file a datix on it?


If Letby did apparently see a missing bung, why didn't she mention it in the reminder note that she wrote to herself, about the 2 datix, she went on to submit.
Not a single mention of the apparent missing bung she found, which could cause an air embolism. Instead she waits 7 days to do so, and does it on the same day she finds out about the consultants concerns.
I see you missed out the word “or” there. The police said; “ok, were you aware of them, or

And she replied: “not really, no”

She then answers about what she’s experienced on the unit, having already said there no training on air embolism.

This missing bung? What is your suggestion here? That she told the doctor about it with the intention it was going to be kept secret between them, and only when it wasn’t was she forced to submit a datix?
 
  • #2,502
Think your either deliberately eluding the point or missing it. Air embolism training comes as standard for the level she's at. Its an inherent part of iv, central etc line training. No way she didnt know all there was to know about it
 
  • #2,503
Think your either deliberately eluding the point or missing it. Air embolism training comes as standard for the level she's at. Its an inherent part of iv, central etc line training. No way she didnt know all there was to know about it
Right, exactly. She also answered no to “insulin training”, but we all know that also forms part of general training. And prior to getting to these questions, she’d already outlined the training she’s received.

Obviously she doesn’t know “all there is to know” about air embolism, I think it’s pretty clear nobody does given the absolute mess of this case. Nurses know to ensure air doesn’t get inside the circulation, probably learned it on Day 1, I doubt many of them could offer any further expertise on it.
 
  • #2,504
Letby received additional training on giving medication through lines, a few weeks before baby A. Part of this training was about the dangers of air embolism, Letby had documented this in her work book.
 
  • #2,505
Right, exactly. She also answered no to “insulin training”, but we all know that also forms part of general training. And prior to getting to these questions, she’d already outlined the training she’s received.

Obviously she doesn’t know “all there is to know” about air embolism, I think it’s pretty clear nobody does given the absolute mess of this case. Nurses know to ensure air doesn’t get inside the circulation, probably learned it on Day 1, I doubt many of them could offer any further expertise on it.
Yeh gain i think your missing it. I meant all there is to know from a nurses pov. Obviously all the ins and outs aren't relevant but a applicable clinical level if knowledge would have been mandatory at her level. Saying you don't really know anything about a subject you know 98% of is Obviously suspicious in this context. She even if being honest doesn't fill in the blanks here either ie " i know to clear the lines, I know how dangerous it is, I know its routine practice to avoid doing such things, clamp the lines, tap the lift the syringe to remove all air and etc" to assume its a request for complete knowledge is just ridiculous. She's very knowledgeable about everything else and forthcoming with it but not about that so why? Same with the insulin
 
  • #2,506
I see you missed out the word “or” there. The police said; “ok, were you aware of them, or

And she replied: “not really, no”

She then answers about what she’s experienced on the unit, having already said there no training on air embolism.

This missing bung? What is your suggestion here? That she told the doctor about it with the intention it was going to be kept secret between them, and only when it wasn’t was she forced to submit a datix?

I see you missed out the word “or” there. The police said; “ok, were you aware of them, or

And she replied: “not really, no”

She then answers about what she’s experienced on the unit, having already said there no training on air embolism.

This missing bung? What is your suggestion here? That she told the doctor about it with the intention it was going to be kept secret between them, and only when it wasn’t was she forced to submit a datix?
"Ok were you aware of them, or"

That is the police asking if Letby was aware of them

The "them" the police are referring to are air embolisms

"Not really, no"

So that is Letby answering, not really, no in relation to whether she was aware of air embolisms.

She was definitely aware of them, so she was being dishonest.

We know this because of evidence. Evidence such as the datix she filed about them, showing not only was she very aware of them, but she had actually managed to link them to the death of baby O, before even the consultants had done.

That's just how aware of them she was. She is the first person to even mention air embolism about one of the deaths, that would later be attributed to them.

Hows that for a coincidence?

Letby didn't datix the incident straight away though, she decided to leave it for 7 days. She can't have been too concerned about it. Yet when she filed the datix she did it with the very obvious suggestion that baby O may have suffered an air embolism.

There was no urgency by Letby to send a datix for something she apparently believed may have caused the death of baby O.

But all of that changed after baby P died. Letby was removed from the ward and her text messages show she was starting to panic that she was under suspicion. We know that Eirian Powell was CC'd in the email from the consultants about air embolisms, so she may have told Letby. Either way it's most definitely not a coincidence that Letby decides to file the datix suggesting air embolism on the same day that the consultants realise this may be the cause of death.

She was displaying guilty knowledge and she needed to officially cover her back. She filed the datix as an allibi, but she probably didn't think through the implications.

Letby knew it was an air embolism, because she inflicted it. She needed to give a reason for why an air embolism was not deliberate

Oh and btw, bungs and extensions fall off from iv devices all the time and they do not cause air embolisms. But, if you had recently completed a course which covers air embolism, and you saw an open port, for a baby which then collapsed and died, you would Datix it on the spot, absolutely immediately. It's completely alien to do a Datix for this a week later. Datix should be done immediately, as soon as possible.
 
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  • #2,507
it’s a bit of an odd hypothesis. Why on earth, if she’d been using air embolism as a murder method for a long time and hiding it extremely well, would she ever suggest as a cause of death/collapse?
 
  • #2,508
Oh please, to appear innocent or brainy except when it comes to police interviews apparently. What's the confidentiality of a datix anyone's e know?
 
  • #2,509
Oh please, to appear innocent or brainy except when it comes to police interviews apparently. What's the confidentiality of a datix anyone's e know?
To appear brainy?

Why did she tell the doctor about it in the first place? And when?
 
  • #2,510
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  • #2,511
it’s a bit of an odd hypothesis. Why on earth, if she’d been using air embolism as a murder method for a long time and hiding it extremely well, would she ever suggest as a cause of death/collapse?
Seems like you've hit a bit of a stump and are doing a bit of deflecting. Instead of trying to think why she couldn't have done this, I suggest you look at the evidence impartially, because it's overwhelmingly bad for Letby. Instead of taking into consideration any of this evidence your question is instead, why would she suggest it.


Well for a start Letby Didn't file the datix about the apparent incident until she absolutely needed to. Like I said, bungs and extensions fall off from iv devices all the time and they do not cause air embolisms. The prosecution called it an Insurance policy. I suppose only Letby really knows. But she specifically targeted certain babies because they were vulnerable and their deaths could be explained with other issues. This was not the case with the triplets. She targeted them because they were triplets. They didn't have any issues. Letby must have had a sixth sense to pick up on something, that didn't actually cause an air embolism for baby O, but for which the consultants would later link to the death and medical experts would also believe to be an air embolism.


But my point is, that just because you can't understand why she would bring up air embolism, it doesn't undermine the evidence. There is plenty of it.

A second Datix was filed on the same day, claiming that peripheral access was lost. Dr Breary says this isn't true. He says he doesn't believe at any point that IV access was lost.

We know from the resus notes that the baby recieved resuscitation drugs intravenously. So Letby is lying. And just to add, the Datix is actually filed by E.Powell who wasn't even on shift at the event.

But guess what couldn't have happened if, for example, peripheral access was lost! You guessed it, air embolism via injection No possibility to inject air with no peripheral access. If someone viewed the Datix and viewed it at face value, they would exclude the possibility of this happening.


And let's not forget, in her notes Letby also claimed that baby O went from optiflow to CPAP, because that of course could explain potentially why the baby was full of air. But the baby wasn't moved to CPAP. Letby was asked why she had written this and claimed she "couldn't remember" oh well, nevermind

So to sum up, Letby is creating the impression that potentially baby O died of an air embolism, but she thinks she had covered herself because she says she noticed it and took action. If anything comes of it, she would look like a competent nurse, who took action.

Remember, baby O was her designated baby, and there wasn't any issues, prior.

She still probably didn't want to draw too much attention to it but when the consultants realised it may be AE, she didn't have much choice. She tries to create the impression an accidental air embolism may have occurred with her open bung datix, and then the second Datix, suggesting air couldn't have been injected.
 
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  • #2,512
Seems like you've hit a bit of a stump and are doing a bit of deflecting. Instead of trying to think why she couldn't have done this, I suggest you look at the evidence impartially, because it's overwhelmingly bad for Letby. Instead of taking into consideration any of this evidence your question is instead, why would she suggest it.


Well for a start Letby Didn't file the datix about the apparent incident until she absolutely needed to. Like I said, bungs and extensions fall off from iv devices all the time and they do not cause air embolisms. The prosecution called it an Insurance policy. I suppose only Letby really knows. But she specifically targeted certain babies because they were vulnerable and their deaths could be explained with other issues. This was not the case with the triplets. She targeted them because they were triplets. They didn't have any issues. Letby must have had a sixth sense to pick up on something, that didn't actually cause an air embolism for baby O, but for which the consultants would later link to the death and medical experts would also believe to be an air embolism.


But my point is, that just because you can't understand why she would bring up air embolism, it doesn't undermine the evidence. There is plenty of it.

A second Datix was filed on the same day, claiming that peripheral access was lost. Dr Breary says this isn't true. He says he doesn't believe at any point that IV access was lost.

We know from the resus notes that the baby recieved resuscitation drugs intravenously. So Letby is lying. And just to add, the Datix is actually filed by E.Powell who wasn't even on shift at the event.

But guess what couldn't have happened if, for example, peripheral access was lost! You guessed it, air embolism via injection No possibility to inject air with no peripheral access. If someone viewed the Datix and viewed it at face value, they would exclude the possibility of this happening.


And let's not forget, in her notes Letby also claimed that baby O went from optiflow to CPAP, because that of course could explain potentially why the baby was full of air. But the baby wasn't moved to CPAP. Letby was asked why she had written this and claimed she "couldn't remember" oh well, nevermind

So to sum up, Letby is creating the impression that potentially baby O died of an air embolism, but she thinks she had covered herself because she says she noticed it and took action. If anything comes of it, she would look like a competent nurse, who took action.

Remember, baby O was her designated baby, and there wasn't any issues, prior.

She still probably didn't want to draw too much attention to it but when the consultants realised it may be AE, she didn't have much choice. She tries to create the impression an accidental air embolism may have occurred with her open bung datix, and then the second Datix, suggesting air couldn't have been injected.
What a load of utter nonsense. Sixth sense indeed.

The open bung datix was for a different baby.

 

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